How are you doing . Pretty good. Welcome. Thank you. Were very happy to have a chance to talk to you today. Um, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood . Im interested because it seems like your independent, fighting spirit seemed to emerge early. Perhaps earlier than for most. Yes. I spent part of my childhood in georgia, in the middle part of georgia. However, i was born in jacksonville, florida, and i think from age probably 3 to 8 was spent in georgia, wattela, georgia, which is considered middle georgia and not that far from augusta, georgia. After that, i went to with my family to st. Augustine, florida, and thats where i came of age as a teenager. I came by my activism very early. I always had sort of an innate sense of what was right and what was wrong, and i dont know exactly where i got that from, but the idea of segregation and things that white people could do and black people could not do, i understood very early, maybe as early as 7, 8 years old that there was something wrong with that. I was not capable of any deep, philosophical thinking its just that why cant we go there and white folks can or why are we poorer than white people . Those were the things that as a child concerned me. I did have one incident in georgia wherein, i guess i violated a very sacred and lifeendangering taboo. I put my hands on a white woman. It happened that we were in a store with very narrow aisles and i was coming down the aisle and she was coming up the aisle and it was such that you had to turn sideways to get past each other and i veered to the right to go past and she veered to the right and it was a two for two step dance and she put her hands on the shoulder with a smile and said you stand here and let me scoot past you. When two of my friends saw that they were scared out of their wits and they ran out of the store running home, and im thinking what in the world is going on . Have they done something wrong . So im running behind them and by the time we got back to where we lived they ran home and told their mother that i had touched a white woman. I still didnt understand what that meant. Well, my mother knew what it meant and she immediately grabbed me and hugged me and started praying. I still didnt understand what was going on and about a week later, the ku klux klan paraded through our community, and they did that at night. What they would do is they would drive through the neighborhood in their robes and i still didnt know what was going on, but later i learned that there have been cases where black boys as old as i am had been killed because they touched a white woman, but once again, i just kind of shrugged my shoulder, and i didnt understand why. In florida you had the colored and white signs, especially at the drinking fountains and i naively wanted to know what color was the water in the colored fountain, and of course, i drafr i drank from the colored fountains and we had a small bus company in st. Augustine, florida. I never sat in the back. St. Augustine was unlike any other town, had i done that in birmingham or montgomery, there is a very good possibility that i would have been killed, but i had the reputation of being henry james and you know henry james is a little bit crazy, so i guess people kind of dismissed my actions that kind of way, but i always knew that this whole thing about segregation and what white folks could do and what black folks could not do, i knew there was something wrong with that. It wasnt until many, many years later, i think im in my 40s when i attended a funeral of a relative of mine, and this was in wattely, georgia. Outside the church was a cemetery, and a lady who has since passed who was the oral historian for our family took me to the cemetery and had me walk among the tombstones and im reading the names of people who had died many years ago, and she brought me to a tombstone which said tobiath awash waa washingt 1927 and she told me the story of this lady. This lady was the most whipped slave in all of that particular county, and what happened to her as was related to me was one day she was working in the field, a tall lady for those times. She may have been 56 tall, the owner of the farm where they were slaves sent for her to come into the house. It seems that everybody knew what that meant. That meant she was going to be eventually raped by the owner of the farm. After she was working there for maybe a few weeks he attempted to rape her. She fought him off. That in itself was a capital offense. She was taken out to the middle of the yard, tied to the whipping post and whipped so badly that she was not able to go back to work in the fields for maybe a couple of weeks or so. Once she healed, went to the fields and after an amount of weeks she was sent for again, and again, she went to the house and then after a period of time he attempted to rape her again. Again, she fought him off and again she was whipped severely. A third time after all of the healing process, when she was sent for she went to the whipping post and tied herself to the whipping post and when the women of the field saw that they all came from the fields and surrounded her, and of course, she was not whipped and so as a i was standing there and my cousin said introduce yourself. I said introduce myself . Yes, introduce yourself. I says, maam, my name is henry james thomas. And then she said tobiatha, this is your great great great grandson henry james. Well, i lost it. I fell down on my knees and i was crying and then i said to her i am so sorry i was not there to protect you and she, my cousin looked at me and said, you see . And of course, she asked me how many times id been arrested and i said 22 times. She said white folks been whipping you, too, but you didnt give up your manhood did you . I said no. She didnt give up her womanhood and thats when i learned something about the other side of my family and probably at least once a year wattelay is about a three hours drive from atlanta, i go to her grave and i talk to her. So is she on your mothers side or your fathers . Shes on my fathers side so thats where i get my rebellion from. Did your mother and father talk to you about these things at all . No. They just no. They never did and blacks did not talk to their children about slavery, and you can tell me if im right or wrong, i dont think many Holocaust Survivors talk to their children. It was a matter of shame and it was a matter of revisiting something that was just awful, and so i never when i talk to my mother about that particular story she ujust silent. No doubt shed heard about it. The complete irony is that particular farm where my family was held as slaves is now owned by one of my Family Members. The one who the historian who died early last year, but she owned that particular and we would have on our fathers side some of our family reunions there. She would constantly try to get mae to spend the night in that house, and i just told her. Im sorry. I cant do that, but the irony is that they the Family Member owned that because obviously, over the years whoever owned it from the white side fell into had some Financial Difficulties and had to either sell it or be sold for taxes. So when did you graduate from high school . 59. And did you go to college . Howard university. And thats where i got started in an organized fashion in the Civil Rights Movement in 1960. So what was going on at school . Was this was this something that i mean, im that you found yourself in an environment which was supporting ideas that you had that you felt i would imagine you were chomping at the bit. Absolutely. Thats the way to describe it. September 1st when the four students from North Carolina ant sat down at the lunch counter and it came on the 6 00 news that this had happened, i remember sitting in and we had what was called there was only one room in the dorm where there was a tv. The rest of us could not afford television ps it was the day room or the activity room and im watching this and i dont know what particular channel, whether it was a network, cbs or nbc, and they talked about what these students did, and i remember jumping up and said yeah weve got to do the same thing the city of d. C. Had a public accommodations law. Right across the bridge to the south is virginia, segregation, to the north and to the east is maryland, segregation. So while we could go to any restaurant in d. C. , but you know, just a few minute away, we could not. So we got started, and i helped organize the first chapter of the Nonviolent Action Group which we call n. A. G. And every weekend we would either go into virginia or maryland to do sitins and i think some time that year in march, and i was first arrested in hyattsville, maryland and protesting racism and it was a movie theater. So it was, like you said, i was chomping at the bit, and this was tailor made for me. So you got involved in snik fairly early . Yes. How did that happen . Howard university had the second largest student protest group, Tennessee State had by far the largest. All during the month of february, march and up through april, a lot of the colleges, historically black colleges throughout the south were having some form of demonstration or sitins. Ella baker who at that time was a member of sclc, southern christian Leadership Conference came up with the idea that all of the students who were involved and needed to be some coordinated effort, she organized this for students to come to Shaw University in raleigh, North Carolina, and we did and it was for that weekend we met students from Tennessee StateFisk University, morehouse, and spellman and thats when miss baker said we should form our own organization so the various organizations that they had at these campus we decided to form one group, and it was called the student nonviolent coordinating committee, in other words, the acronym for snc, and we folded our organization into that one organization and thats how we became snc. That was when you were a freshman . Yes. And did you i was just curious about the academic side of your college years. Were you did you have an intention to major in something in particular . Did you have any ambitions . I left home with the idea of becoming a doctor. My lady who lived across the street and a lady who also had a little private school. We called her mama joshua, and she thought i was a pretty smart kid because i memorized the books of the bible quicker than any other qukid and to this day could recite some of them, leviticus, numbers, and deuteronomy, and i did that much quicker than anyone else and she thought i was pretty smart and she said you need to go to school to be a doctor so you can come back here and take care of me and my sister. So i left Howard University with the idea of becoming a doctor, and the first time i was arrested, and i was in jail the heck with being a doctor, im going to be a lawyer because i have to fight this injustice. And so that was the idea and i was never a stellar academic scholar in the classroom. I had to work harder than anyone else just to get a krshg out of her class, but thats when i got thoroughly involved and i guess i realized what my calling was. When did you first hear about the freedom rides . 1961 because we got started in may of 61, and i think i got the flyer or the news about it from core probably in march. They were looking for someone at least 21 years of age or older and of course, i was only 19 so my roommate, john moody who had been a had spent ten years in the air force when he came to howard, so he was ten years older than myself and he had also volunteered and he was selected because, obviously he was over 21, and i think two days before we were supposed to report to a friends Retreat Center there in northern virginia, he got sick, and he could not go, and then he said to me, why dont you just go . I was always big for my age and people always thought i was older than i appeared so i showed up and i told him the story, and i did not tell him how old i was, however, so i filled out the form and the part where it says age and date of birth i left blank. So i was accepted and it was an oversight on somebodys part and i was accepted and it wasnt until two days into the training that somebody asked me how old was i because i left that at 19 and i went oh, my gosh and so, but it was too late then and i said i am 19, but i act 30, and thats how i got selected and remained selected for the freedom ride. So how long was the training and what was the training . I think im a little bit confused. I thought it was at least two weeks and ive since learned that it was probably only a week that we were training and in that section of northern virginia, even though it was said to be more liberal than the rest of the country still people were not ready for blacks and whites to be meeting under the same roof and certainly sleeping under the same roof and we had some trouble with the local authorities when they found out what we were doing. Fire inspectors got there under all kinds of violations. Police started checking license plates and giving speeding tickets on people coming and going. In other words, we got properly harassed by the authorities, but that was only about three days prior to our completion of the training and so we did and none of us got arrested there in northern virginia. How many were training . Was it enough for the first couple of rides . Yeah. We had a total of 13 people training. Six whites and seven blacks, and i think ive forgotten that may 4th is when we left washington, d. C. That particular building, the bus station in new york at 7th avenue is still there in d. C. , and our first stop was richmond, virginia. So you must have been excited and scared. Excited, but not scared. I had no idea what i was getting into what we were getting into. Besides, im 19 and at 19 you thrive on either the perception of danger, okay . You are used to breaking the rules, and all of that so i had no idea and especially in richmond, virginia, nothing happened. The people there acted decent. The fbi, of course, knew everything we were doing and ive since learned of the kinds of dirty tricks that j. Edgar hoover tried to play on us and succeeded in some instance. The next stop was charlotte, North Carolina, once again, no problems. The time that we were there, at least, the bus stations were integrated and we had no problems. It was when we left charlotte headed into south carolina, rock hill, south carolina, was the first incident of violence. John lewis was beaten pretty badly in rock hill, and i was on a bus that was stopped in windsboro, south carolina. The jim peck was beaten pretty badly as he got off the bus. While i wasnt physically attacked, the Police Arrested me in the night. They took me out to a klan mob. They did not book me into the station. Theres nothing on the records indicated that i had ever been arrested and because the idea was to deliver me to the klan and the klan would kill me and the police can say we never heard of him. We never arrested him and we have no record of him ever being in rock hill. I was rescued by a black man who had watched the police and who had been assigned by core to if anybody is arrested to report back to core and this type of thing and he had been watching the police, and when i was ordered out of the police car at gun point, and i had to run from the mob and he drove up beside me to tell me to jump in the car if the backseat and get down on the floor and thats how i escaped from windsboro, south carolina. Do you still know that man . I never knew his name. I have tried all of these years, and im pretty sure hes passed. The city of windsboro is inviting me back and i said let bygones be bygone, right, guys . The police chief now is an africanamerican and he and the mayor are having a welcome back hank thomas after 54 years and that will take place probably some time next month or in april, and thats it. Thats amazing. So the so the ride continues . I caught up with the group in atlanta, georgia, and we were warned and advised by dr. King and his folks. You need to stop this ride because youre going into alabama and its a hot bed of klan activity and somebody is liable to get killed. Well, because i was missing for a period of 24 hours we thought for sure that i had been killed because when they call rock hill to inquire about my whereabouts that police said we dont know what youre talking about and that was a very good indication there that they have done something to him. So when i showed up again and there was great rejoicing that, you know, i didnt think was such a big deal after i escaped. And they were just happy to see me and obviously they had to do some thinking, should we continue with this ride and my answer was, of course, were going to continue and so we went on into aniston. When we got into the city limits of aniston, the streets were deserted and we turned the corner of the street leading into the bus station and that was the mob gathered at the bus station and when the bus pulled in they were yelling and screaming and that the bus driver had bought them the freedom riders and now they were going to take over. They started breaking out the windows and the bus driver had, fortuitously for us, locked the door as he escaped from the bus so they couldnt get into the door and after a while of beating on the bus and rocking it, Robert Kennedy, ive since learned had contacted governor patterson and the president of greyhound that the freedom riders were trapped in aniston, alabama and its only going to be a matter of time before the mobs going to kill them and so youve got to get them out of there and so the bus driver got on the bus and tried to drive away. There was a line of cars behind them and cars in front of them that wouldnt let the bus drive anymore, 15 miles an hour. The tire had been punctured and two of the tires had been cut and it takes a great deal of whatever it is you have to cut the tire of a bus, a big bus. The bus stopped at the Country Store along the highway and another mob there was and they continued the job of beating on the bus and they had their children and their wives with them and they had come to see the freedom riders get lynched. An incendiary device was thrown into the bus through a back broken window and the bus ignited in fire and the thing that saved us because they held the door shut as the bus was burning and they were saying lets burn these niggeres alive. Lets burn them alive and it burned the back of the bus and everybody on the outside scattered and thats the only way we were able to get on that bus and then the mob followed us to the hospital, and the attorney general pleaded with the governor patterson to provide