Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Ku Klux Klan In The 1920s Midwest 20240714

The heartland. Race and memory in america. And slinging doughnuts for the boys and American Woman in world war ii. His most recent book is hoosiers, a new history of indiana, which is on display outside. For many years he coedited the Indiana University press series midwestern history and culture, which included a book he edited entitled comparative historys of the midwestern states. Jim says hes very proud, in a modest hoosier way that the midwest Mystery Association bestowed on him the Lifetime Achievement award. I have known jim many years, is since i was a student, his student back at Indiana University and ill testify that he has solid midwestern values, unfailing kindness, decency, unflagging work ethic and solid common sense. Jim represents the best of what it means to be midwestern but hes never roman tied midwestern history. We pride ourselves on being nice, but we dont always live up to that ideal. So today jim will be speaking on a darker side of the midwestern past. Hell be talking about who is an american, the rise and fall of the ku klux klan in the midwest. [applause] thank you all for coming out this morning and listening to a subject that may not be as bright as it is outside but a subject that i think is important. I do want to thank grand valley state university, grace whitney, scott st. Louis, the staff, the leaders of our midwestern history association. Ted france, sarah, john, and many others, who make this organization what its become in five short years and i state that with deep hope and optimism that that trajectory will continue to move upwards in the coming years. I want in a very quick and dirty way for which ill apologize only this once, talk to you about the ku klux klan, convince you the klan story is relevant and important, convince you to incorporate the story or part of the story into the history that you do, whatever form of history you do. Its an old, old story, and yet i want to assert that its a new story. A story that connects to the center of our nations history. This is not a story for the margin, for the side bar. This is a story that goes in the center of our textbook. Our minds and hearts. As we think about the question who is an american. A story that paraded proudly down pennsylvania avenue. Its a story that spans a century of time, from 1920 to recent events in charlottesville, and elsewhere. A story of White Supremacists to be sure but much, much more than White Supremacists. We have advantages today in telling this story that we did not have a generation or two ago. There is new scholarship. Lots of good new scholarship on the klan. Yet, after several weeks of doing a customer sorry investigation of that scholarship in the midwest, i have to also report that there is not nearly enough scholarship for any of the states, the communities, or the region as a whole. There are so many areas of opportunity to plow through the sources and create your own stories about the klan, and i want to convince to you try to do that. Among the advantages that we have, in addition to pretty good foundations of secondary scholarship, are primary sources. The new digitized sources particularly of newspapers, which those of you who do research from primary sources, you know they are a gem. Folks, my generation are owed reparations for having lifted [laughter] bound newspaper volumes and cranking microfilm. I have thousands of hours invested in that as some of you old timers do also. We should get payback. It feels like im cheating when i go to the digitized newspapers, but boy, are they wonderful for a subject like the klan. Heres the one that drove me. Ive been focusing mostly on indiana. Its based in indianapolis, but the fiery cross, leading klan newspaper in the north, publishes widely stories from across the midwest and will be useful to anyone and its completely digitized and searchable. Let me make some key generalizations to park your interest. This is these are the words of elmer davis, a distinguished reporter from new york who came out to indiana, his native birthplace to study the klan in 1924. This is what he concluded. These were marginal people. They were the great unteachables. Now, i want to say after 40 years in the classroom, i want to hope that no one is unteachable. I had a few students who were close to that maybe. [laughter] but were all teachable. I dont agree with davis on that point, this word, but more importantly, most of the midwesterners who joined the klan were not marginal. They were main line, mainstream midwesterners. They were not abnormal. Maybe not even wicked. We now have very good analyses of klan memberships in some locations and there is a project that we desperately need to have more of. The vocation and the analyses of klan membership lists but we have enough now. To have some idea of who these men with their backs turned to the camera, preparing to be initiated, naturalized into the klan, who they were, what kind of people they were in a socioeconomic way at least. So the question is, who joined . The great midwestern novelist tarkington said it was the rank and file of good, honest people who joined the ku klux klan and thats often the case. These are people of the heartland the friendliest people on earth. The nice people. Good methodists, good lawyers. Good merchants. Lions club members. Church women. Proudly joined the klan. This group posing with their masks down because they are very proud members of the womens ku klux klan. Heres one of the greatest challenges in telling this story. It takes a theologian or some other insight toe connect good people. And what we would today describe unanimously as evil. Where was the klan popular . Everywhere. Across this country. Certainly in the south but also in the north. In fact there, were probably in the 1920s more klan members in the north than there were in the south. And it was certainly popular in the midwest. In all the midwestern states, in most communities, in those states, and especially so in ohio, indiana, and illinois. This was the heartland of the klan. Heres their definition of themselves. They were americans. They were 100 americans and thats a wonderful figure to introduce to students and others. What does it mean, 100 american compared to only 99 american . Heres their definition. Characteristic, pure white. They use that again in newspaper speeches, propaganda, pure white race. Native born, militantly protestants and aggressively patriotic. A hundred percent americans in a protestant country, as this minister in des moines told his audience. Militantly protestant. The badge wore on the front of the robe of the klan members. The cross. The red, the drop of blood that christ shed for all. Mainline protestants, methodists, baptists, presbyterians, quakers, who had their churches at real crossroads, in big cities in county courthouse squares where klan members often showed up on a sunday morning, marched to the alter and left the congregation singing on ward christian soldiers. The klan at rallies and parades always displayed the cross. The burning cross, the symbol of the religious belief. The light of their world. The fire of their hearts. And the American Flag, a patriotic flag that flew at all klan events. A religious and patriotic conviction that america was in decline, that there were enemies at the gates, even inside the gates, causing a turning away from that cross and that flag. The klan was brilliant in creating the dichotomy of us and them. Of those people, the others, of defining who the enemy was, and what the enemy was threatening to do. So who is the enemy . The largest most important enemy for the ku klux klan in the midwest were catholics. I want to say that again because thats commonly not understood, and i dont think there is any doubt in the mind of any scholar, certainly in the writing of any scholar on the klan, in the midwestern region, that that is true. The largest enemy in numbers and power and threat were catholics. Many of you will understand this. Many americans today do not understand, have no sense of anticatholicism. Which was deep in the dna of americans from the beginning, down maybe to the 1960 president ial election. A vicious distrust of a Foreign Church led by a foreign pope, goodness gracious, pope didnt even speak english did he . That was engaged in a conspiracy to undermine basic american values. Not just protestantism but there was a lot of focus in klan action on Public Schools and the threats that parochial schools catholics offer to the Public School tradition in america. This anticatholicism is everywhere, even in beautiful new suburbs like oak park outside of chicago, where the women organized a ku klux klan event in order to stop the flow of catholics into their lovely middle class neighborhood. Anticatholicism, catholics, the first enemy. And, of course, immigrants, and these are often the same, catholic immigrants, pouring into america, and this of course, is the tail end of the period of the largest, longest, pour of foreign people into the united states. I think i need not tell you, nativism is deep in the american soul. They must be turned aside. These invaders from across the atlantic. Jews were the enemy. This was an example that comes from dearborn, michigan, henry ford, brilliant innovator, entrepreneur. Notorious antisemite, spreading the word in his newspaper. Africanamericans. Africanamericans were the enemy. Race divided americans in the 1920s. It divided midwesterners in our history from the very beginning down to the present. More than any other line of division in our region. And so africanamericans were certainly the enemy. Maybe not the largest enemy, because there were seem ways to keep black, midwesterners in their place before and after the klan, that there wasnt a whole lot of work for the klan to do with this particular enemy. So these are the enemies. Catholics first. Immigrants, jews, africanamericans, us, the good americans. The 100 americans who are going to redeem america from these enemies. What are the issues . Weve got to stop this horde of immigrants coming into our country. Weve got to close the door to them. And that happened. In one of the most significant pieces of National Legislation ever passed, the National Origins quota act of 1924, which created a quota system that allowed folks from northern and western europe to enter in large numbers, larger numbers than those from southern and eastern europe. The lesser people, the darker people, the more catholic people, the more jewish people, are pretty much turned away by this 1924 legislation. It was a Great Success for the klan. The klan pushed it aggressively, and while many forces contributed to its passage, the klan was among them, and taking credit, imperial wizard, the National Leader of the klan, hiram evans, told an indiana audience that now america has built a stonewall around the nation, so tall, so deep, so strong, that the scum and riffraff of the old world cannot get into our gates. These immigrants, these others were the cause of many problems. I think the largest problem they caused was alcohol. At a time of prohibition. This, too, is a long story. In many midwestern communities. The enforcement of prohibition was the number one policy issue. It had pushed hard by protestants for over since the 1840s at least, in many parts of the midwest. Especially by Protestant Church women, concerned about what they saw as the decline of family life. The growing corruption that came with the sale and manufacture of alcohol. All the more unsettling because it was quite clear that the authorities were not adequately enforcing the law of the land and the law of the states, that some people like this swell crowd, i think this is madison, wisconsin, were mocking prohibition. Not just disobeying the law. Prohibition is the number one issue but there were lots of other signs of moral decline. These flappers, this is something not old but new, in the 1920s. Fueled by booze and new music. It was the music of the jungle, the klan claimed that they were dancing to and listening to, and, of course, back seat sex, the arrival of the auto mobile across the midwest changed lives in so many ways. Including new opportunities for new sins, or old sins in new garb. I love this broadside from the klan in lincoln, nebraska, listing all the problems and challenges, you cant read all the details there but you can find this and many of the images i am presenting this morning, particularly on the sights of our wonderful state and local Historical Society. You know them all but we need to shout out our enthusiasm and gratitude to the midwestern state historical societies, from wisconsin to ohio, to nebraska, to iowa, and all the others. Who have, for generations, been gathering the primary sources and now wonderfully digitizing their collection so that anyoneo that anyone, anywhere in the world with computer access can look at these images and read some of the documents and create your own stories about the klan. The broadside from lincoln, Nebraska Historical society, the last issue, petty parties, a menace to national morality. Married men, do your joyriding with your own wives. All this is encouraged by hollywood films, which of course, according to the klan were made by jews and catholics to corrupt youthful americans. Hollywood films that played in small town movie theaters, not just big city chicago movie theaters. In darkened theaters, the klan newspaper wrote, couples sit close together to watch sex filth, distorted history, and vicious and degrading immorality. What did the klan do to advance the cause . Publicity. Propaganda. Persuasion. Advocacy. Many traditional ways, just like midwesterners have always done, they had parades. Robed figures, usually almost always led by a marching band. They gathered at state fairgrounds, at state fair times, a wonderful subject i hope some people take up. We have had scholarship on state fairs in the midwest, and we know how important they were, and are, and the klan was there at the state fair. In most states, i am not certain, but in many if not most. I love the marching bands. This is one of the most famous, from muncie, indiana. Travelede klan band around the region. Here they are getting ready to march. I love this photograph, because if you can see, in the front is a saxophone player, i think that is a baritone sax in the marching band. I had always assumed the saxophone was the instrument of the devil in the 1920s. [laughter] the muncie is, in band. So whoever is writing about klan bands needs to explain, too, why a saxophone appeared in this band, and maybe not in one in medicine, wisconsin madison, wisconsin. Parades, on holidays such as the fourth of july, and someone can probably identify some of these buildings in grand rapids. Parades, with floats, lots of floats, with all sorts of messages. Often about saving the Little Red Schoolhouse from catholics. Floats, specifically done by the women of the ku klux klan. That is a subject, by the way. We know a little about women in the klan, but as far as i know, no one has yet found a membership list of a womens klan organization. That would be exceedingly valuable. The assumption is the women were pretty much like the men who joined the klan. Good, middleclass, hardworking, honest midwesterners. Rallies. Madison,hi sone in wisconsin. Lectures, parades around the capital, naturalization, swearing of new members, fireworks. A picnic in Central Illinois, with all sorts of entertainment. These were festivals. These were places where people of likeminded sort got together, the way they had before and after the klan, but now with this more than twist, of klan speeches and programs. This ad is particularly interesting, because it includes at the bottom the names of the sponsors, the local businesses in gerard, illinois, including the local ford dealership. That tells us, as so many sources do, again, that this was a picnic attended not by people abnormal and out of the mainstream, but by the good, honest to godfearing people in this Central Illinois town. The parades had messages. Protestant the school. One law, the protestant law. One flag, the protestant symbol, in topeka, kansas. You can spend a lot of time, when you have these on your computer, to blow up the images and look at the details. Theyre all looking back towards the camera. They didnt remove their masks, but the person in the back looking out the window, you see her or his eyes looking out the back of that car. Its very sweet. [laughter] activity,common klan to donate an American Flag to the schools, to all the schools in the township or the city. To rural schools, like this one in ohio. Gathering in their robes to present the children this symbol of their america. Klanspeople showed up at funerals, and weddings, and baptisms. Ther there are lots of images of these religious events with klan members in robes in our state Historical Society collections. Parades and rallies and picnics are more traditional forms of advancing the cause, but the klan was not a traditional organization. In fact, it was innovative, it was progressive, on the cutting edge of the technology of the 1920s, on the cutting edge of salesmanship. This is the decade in which salesmanship became a notable expertise, area of expertise. And propaganda. The klan leadership was very, very good at this, including the making of their own films to counter the rot that was coming out of hollywood. Justice,he toll of one of the most widely shown films made by the ku klux klan to present the klans story. The klan also produced its own music, 100 american songs for the Dubuque County klan quartet. Phonograph records made in various studios around the midwest. The largest was in richmond, indiana, where they recorded dozens of klan records. At the same time, ironically, the studio in richmond recorded a young trumpet player from new orleans, his first recording, and it was of course Louis Armstrong. In the same studio. The klan and Louis Armstrong may have passed, entering the doors. Films, music, radio. The klan was early adopters of radio. Dragon, imperial wizard hiram evans gave an address from kansas city, reaching into other midwestern states as far as indiana. Again, sophisticated. Airplanes. As we heard yesterday morning, midwesterners looked up, the klan looked up, and overhead at a rally was an airplane, often trailing a cross and or a flag. Rubes ine not bedsheets. Lan violence. Here is a tough subject, and i want to be careful in how i talk about it. There is a widespread assumption that the klan was about violence, that the klan was about lynching. First of all, i am talking exclusively about the klan in the midwest in the 1920s. Not other places. Not the godforsaken south, for goodness sakes. I didnt mean that, did i . The midwest in the 1920s, not other times. Its commonly assumed the klan was lynching africanamericans, like the still from the birth of a nation depicts, all across the region in the 1920s, and it is simply not true. Again, theres Considerable Research still to be done, but the best scholarship that i know, and what i have learned in the last few years, shows very little, surprisingly little violence on the part of the ku klux klan. And im talking now about documented evidence, the kind that scholars expect to have two to make aclusions, statement. I have had for many, many years, an offer of 50 for anyone who can show me a case of a documented klan lynching in indiana, of anyone. Jew, black, white, catholic, anyone. I still have my 50, and i have raised it to 100 recently, for documented evidence. So far, zero, none in indiana. And im not going to say none anywhere else. Some of you may have documented evidence, and i would be happy to know about it. The having siaaid that, violence by the klan was a slight, especially compared to common assumptions today, i want to quickly say that the klan did engage in significant levels of threat, of intimidation. After all, part of the reason for the mask and the robe is to cower people, to intimidate them as you walk down the street, the main street of grand rapids, 1000 strong. To send a message. Part of the reason of burning a cross on a lawn, or in front of a catholic church, was to send a message. Even soaping the screens of a window in the home with the letters kkk sent a message. A powerful message. A significant amount of the klan s influence and power, and the ability to keep people who may have known and thought differently quiet, rather than stand up, came from this intimidation, this threat, this sense of power, which was deliberate and aggressively used by sophisticated leaders of the ku klux klan. Now, there is some violence. Northern indiana it was almost certainly the klan who firebombed the residence of a catholic priest. No one was hurt. One of the most egregious cases of violence comes in southern illinois, in bloody williamson county, as many of you know, where tensions between italians and miners, mixed with the ku klux klan to cause significant violence. Instances, so such far as those such instances, are thes i know, exception rather than the everyday activity of the ku klux klan in the midwest in the 1920s. Rather than physical violence, the klan wisely, i think, entered politics. In williamsonia, county. Ie best i can tell oyuyou, and have heard this in other sessions today, when others have talked about the midwest. There is lots of variation in the midwest, right . There is dynamism, there is fluidity, and that is certainly true of the klan. It is almost certainly that the klan was politically stronger in indiana than in many other midwestern states. It was probably weaker in these other states, at least three of which passed laws prohibiting the wearing of masks in public places. That was one common political response to the klan at the state and local level. Some communities, towns and cities, passed antimask laws. And we were variations within states even, like this example, in northern ohio. An essential part of the klan story is opposition. And its logical to conclude, and correct to conclude, that the largest opposition to the klan in the midwest in the 1920s came from catholics, their largest enemies. Larger in numbers and more effectively organized, with access to resources to stand up to the klan. This is the major, there were many others, but this is the major catholic organized response to the klan, the formation of the american unity. L. , based in. U chicago with offices in indianapolis and working in other places to produce speakers, a Speakers Bureau and a newsletter called, fittingly, tolerance. Tolerance is an interesting read. It may not all be true, but not everything in the fire across or other the fiery cross or other klan newspapers was either. But condemning the klan, calling them out, mocking them, making fun of them, and very interesting, acquiring or stealing membership lists from andn headquarters publishing them in the pages of the tolerance. They did that for indianapolis, for dubuque, for chicago, and other locations. Of course, Jewish Americans stood up to the klan where they could and when they could, often too small in numbers, particularly in small towns, to do much. In some larger cities, local Jewish Community organizations did attempt to respond, and some rabbis were very outspoken in opposing the klan. Africanamericans, of course. This to me is a fascinating part of the klan story. In some places, probably many places, African Americans in its when the klan was in most active political moments, the 1924 elections, africanamericans switched from the long traditions since linking of voting republican to voting democrat, for the first time. The foreshadowing of what would become part of the new Deal Coalition of the 1930s. Important,t, or more africanamericans formed branches of the naacp. Some had informed in the teens, but in the 1920s, naacp branches took off across the midwest. In response, in significant part, to the threat that black midwesterners saw in the ku klux klan. A very interesting part of the story, and the benefit of it are the sources. Theome of you may know, papers of the naacp are in the library of congress, in washington, d. C. , the largest collection in the entire library of congress manuscript division. They are wonderful papers. I have been through them for indiana and other places. I encourage if you are interested to get into those papers. They are organized by state, and within state by community, so very easy to get the boxes on your desk, go through them, and get really into, really inside an Africanamerican Community in a particular place, to see divisions within the Africanamerican Community. In this instance, they struggled, debated how to respond to the klan. Should we put our heads down and go along, because it is very dangerous to respond, or should we stand up . Should we speak out . Indianapolis the branch which became very active in the 1920s, they decided to stand up, and stand out. They organize rallies, in cooperation with some jewish and catholic fellow citizens. Theres general opposition. Within some Protestant Churches, the detroit Methodist Church conference passed a resolution of condemnation of the klan. Within individual congregations, among some ministers, although i should have perhaps said earlier that many protestant ministers not just joined the klan, it appears that they got Free Membership and didnt have to pay the dues, but they also , protestanters ministers. Opposition within the republican party. Electedublican officials stood up to the klan and oppose the klan. The indiana bar association, surprisingly to me, passed a resolution of condemnation of the klan. , fromwas some Opposition Press editors like William Allen white, but not many. Most newspapers, certainly in indiana, went along, remained silent, or endorsed the klan. Only a handful really actively opposed it. Decline, andn did it did go away rather quickly in retrospect, but not for those People Living at the time. In 1925, of this woman the murder of this woman by this man in 1925, was the trigger. D. C. Stephenson, the grand dragon of indiana, the most prominent klan leader in the midwest. His influence and activity extended far beyond indiana. He was trying to build a wide klan Network Beyond his own state, and he ended up in the Michigan City penitentiary for the murder of madge oberholtzer. Then, not the klan just in indiana but across the region, smelled like many, many dayold fish. People ran aggressively from it as a consequence. But it is more than stephenson, and this is a tangled story that still hasnt been told very well, about the decline of the klan. Some of it comes from the success of the klan in solving the problems of immigration in the 1924 National Origins quota act. We have done that. We dont need to talk about immigration. They are still here, but they arent going to come anymore, and that problem will take care of itself, so we dont need to worry about that. And then perhaps, there was disappointment with the klan, because the klan was never able to live up to its promises, in all sorts of ways. It promised to eradicate alcohol from the land. It promised to enforce, rigidly, the prohibition law, and it failed to do so, and anyone could see that alcohol was widely and readily obtained across the region. They could see that there were bootleggers, blamed them on canada coming across the border, as well as homebrew. Alcohol was flourishing. And along with it flourished corruption of all sorts. Kickbacks, paybacks, bribery of officials, of elected city and town, local officials, police officials. A web of corruption. It because i think some klan members to say, we have had enough of this, we are not paying our dues, we are turning away. 1920s, thed of the klan has been kicked out of the midwest. And i think most midwesterners decided, were just going to forget about it. Is over. It is done. It wasy, by the 1930s, embarrassing to think about it, to think i along to the klan belonged to the klan, that my father, my grandmother belonged to the klan. We will forget about it, sweep it under the rug, and it will go away. This is a standard wafer human way for human beings, americans especially i think, to think about our troubled past, to pretend it didnt happen. Not to erase it so much as forget it. There is a fascinating story i dont have much time to talk about today, but some of you know this, of the way in which we dealth with the memory of the klan since the 1920s, the way in which we have or havent acknowledged it in history textbooks, school curricula, in museums. It was very controversial. Documentedirst displays of a klan robe was in 1979,ort wayne museum, in i think, dont quote me on that. There is a wonderful article about that display of the klan robes, how dangerous it was, how much effort it took to put that robe in the museum. Klan dead . Have we seen the end . One of my favorite klan images not really dead. The biggest revival came following the civil rights movements of the early 1960s. Those demonstrations, those responses revived the klan across the region in the late 1960s. But it is a very different klan. This is what also causes misunderstanding of the klan of the midwest of the 1920s. Because the klan that returns or appears in the 1960s into the 1970s and beyond is a very different klan. They really are, in some ways, rubes an unteachables. One of my favorite klan photographs, you may not be able to read the sign the guy on the left is carrying, its nice to be white, hes written on his sign. I spent decades trying to teach students the difference between its. And this grade great unteachable spelled it its which i have never seen anywhere else. Thinktly sometimes these are not people to be despised necessarily, or hated, but to be embraced, to say i feel sorry for you, you are so out of touch with the world in which you live. It is a sad klan that returned in the 1960s and 1970s. I dont think i revealed this. I have just about finished a book on the klan, mostly in indiana, but in the last few chapters, they are about these fellows. Said, why doit and you have to go on and on about them . So i cut some of it. [laughter] but they are intriguing. The still pull in television cameras. I we want to bef on the news in grand rapids, we have to go somewhere and burn across, and they will be taking photographs and images and we will get interviewed, if we put on robes and burn a cross. Theres something that pulls us into these people. Theyre very small in numbers, in then that appears midwest in the late 1960s. Very small in numbers. Basically powerless. They show up at demonstrations and events, and always there are more Police Officers than klan members, more officers not in uniform probably than klan members. They are there to protect the klan. They are still here. They are different in that their focus has been mostly on White Supremacy, on the pure white race, and attacks against africanamericans. Vicious, racist stuff that comes out of their mouths, not much from their writing, because they dont write much. Bigoted racist, purely racism of the worst sort. They have added some new conspiracies, some new enemies. In the 1990s, they added the of whatmy to their list was wrong with america. And spawned descendants, variations, down to charlottesville, and this fellow in the foreground here is wearing the same insignia as in 192n springfield wore 4. Organizers of the charlottesville rally of 2017 was a man from southern indiana, and i sort of followed him. Hes a media magnet,has dozens of videos. Heiummbach is no rube. A college graduate, thank god not of indiana, but maryland. He was a history major. Hes no rube. He requires, others require, that we have answers to the question, who is an american . Who are these people marching down pennsylvania avenue . Who are their descendents today . What is our responsibility as citizens and as historians. I wont tell you your response ability as a citizen, because i believe in american ideals. That is for you to decide. But i will tell you that historians have a responsibility to tell this story, to figure out ways to tell it accurately, with documented evidence. To figure out ways to tell it effectively, to all kinds of audiences, not just to other historians. We can get it pretty well, pretty quickly. But to the people. And this is where the midwest began. This is where our historical societies began, and our universities began. Jackson turner called our state universities the peoples universities. We have an obligation to the people to tell this story, in our scholarship, in public presentations, like the one in of all places dearborn, michigan, where there is a wonderful presentation of the history of the klan at the henry ford, that great museum. A third grader whose name is james, one of the greatest kids in the world, one of the four greatest kids in the world. [laughter] he understood last summer when we looked at the exhibit, and maybe couldnt put it into these words, but probably some sense of the importance of believing, of hoping, that the moral arc of justice, that the moral arc bends toward justice. Thank you very much. [applause] we do have some time for questions. Ive been asked, if you come up to the microphone to ask your question and make your comment. Im protected in all sorts of ways. Im happy to have negative comments, challenging comments. Not hostile, where we are. Not hostile, but challenging. Thank you. I wont be hostile, jim. Thank you for the powerful talk. I wonder if you could Say Something about world war i veterans. The American Legion, founded in indianapolis, i dont know when that was founded, but was that appealing to veterans . Was there a presence . Professor madison a great question. The question is about veterans in general, and world war i. I didnt have time to do this, but world war i is a precursor to many of the issues i talked about, in all sorts of ways, and some of you know that very well. For veterans specifically, and again it is impossible to generalize, but the question was about the American Legion, which was formed by veterans. The headquarters were in indianapolis, but the legion was all over the midwest. Very popular in rural communities, small towns. For a lot of reasons. Patriotic reasons. They fought for their country, they wanted to protect their country, they wanted to honor their country. But also some legion places, they also wanted to have a beer, or a glass of gin. Some legion posts provided that. I dont know how many, or what. But the question is whether the legion members were also klan members, one that i do not know the answer to with any precision. I know the klan, the American Legion, at its state convention in indiana, refused to pass a resolution condemning the klan. A proposal was made to do so and they refused to pass it, as did all the major church denominations. Members of thee legion were members of the klan. Indianahe dean of the University Law school, paul d. Mcnutt, who became state and the National Commander of the American Legion in the late 1920s, was asked to condemn the klan. You would think a lawyer might step up. He said no, he could not do it. He privately abhorred it in a letter, but didnt say anything publicly, and got elected governor of indiana in 1932, as a consequence of staying silent, i suspect. I dont know. A very good question for others to look at. From an i. U. Grad. I appreciate it a lot of what you said today, but i have some questions about White Supremacy. Professor madison please. In particular, i am always really struck by this framing of, like, the klan or other hate groups as nice white people who do really reprehensible things, because i think that lends us to the argument you started to turn towards at the end, that these are humans that should be pitied, that there is something sad or laughable about how they see the world. That worry that that pity, seeing it as laughable, makes it easier for us to, i dont know, sort of turn away from the real violence, whether it is physical or psychic or verbal, that comes from this kind of rhetoric. So i dont know. I just wondered if you had any more thoughts on the state of dos nice white people who bad things framing of the klan. Professor madison 1 thank you. And is a wonderful comment, i appreciate it very much. In fact, i will incorporate that into my manuscript. You captured a fundamental issue i wrestled with again and again as i was writing this. And i dont really have a good answer. I tried to be careful. I have gone through, other people have read the manuscript in addition to my wife, some of them in this room, and they tried to help me on this issue. It is a very tough issue. Because i am not content, as some people are, to say, oh, the ku klux klan, let them rot in hell. I cant do that. I think that is wrong. I think that is a disservice. And i want to state again that my reaction, my thoughts about the klan of the 1920s are very different from recent events. It was a different time, a very different time, and we all know earlierair to judge an generation by our standards. So im trying very hard to put the klan in the 1920s in the context of their time and their place. Very few people in the 1920s had any concept of what we would call multiculturalism, or plurality, or diversity. It comes up a little bit in the a. U. L. , the american unity league, in some of their publications and speeches, they use words that sound a little like what we would call multiculturalism today. But that was very unusual in the 1920s. Real conundrum, and i guess i have tried to present, to tell the story in a way that allows the reader, the reader of what i hope will be a book soon, to come to her or his own conclusions. But it is important to ask that question. Thank you so much for a powerful, important talk. Im speaking as somebody who is a 19th century historian, so im trying to jump over that century divide we are both dealing with in terms of the history of racism in america. But given the fact, and obviously this is a very new discovery, but particularly the three border states of the midwest, ohio, illinois and indiana, were as it turns out filled with successful and thriving africanamerican farming communities in the 19th century, who seemed to have been able to hold onto their land and their wealth. Up until the rise of the klan in the early 20th century. And then, also, just being in these communities, western ohio, ways theisconsin, the arounds a rising these communities and spending massive amounts of energy to terrorize, even physically destroy assets of those communities. Im just wondering how you think our growing awareness of this different way of thinking about midwest andworrural the rise of the klan might shape current and future scholarship in terms of how we understand the rise of the klan . Professor madison that is a long and complicated question. Let me take just a few pieces of it. First of all, on the africanamerican rural communities, and again im allowed to go outside of indiana, but i always get a little bit shaky, with this audience especially. Some of you know much more about this than i do, in your particular parts of the midwest, so i will say in indiana. The black communities that i know, that i studied, the robert settlement, weaver settlement, beech, began to decline before the 1920s, for the same reason small towns across the midwest were struggling. Young people voted with their feet, moved to the cities, to indianapolis, chicago, detroit, where there were opportunities. Opportunities in agriculture lessened in the early 20 century. They didnt want to live in small towns without all the stuff, movie theaters, of big cities. They left on their own, and moved. The africanamerican communities in the midwest are very important, and i agree with the assertion yesterday that they are understudied and very much need to be studied and incorporated into our general understanding of the midwest of america. But i think the communities are beating to dwindle before the 1920s. Beginning to dwindle before the 1920s. I know they had been threatened, intimidated, the object of white antipathy from the very beginning, down into the 20th century. But i know of no significant anyn violence against of these africanamerican communities in indiana in the 1920s. Oldtimers in lyle station who were interviewed talk about threats from the klan in nearby princeton, indiana. They said we have guns, we have rifles. They had hunting rifles and were very good at shooting squirrels, could have shot between the eyes of a hooded klansman, and folks were not stupid. They knew that, and they pretty much stayed away. So i dont know of any instance of the klan or anyone else burning a rural black community in indiana. Certainly there was intimidation and threats, again, and that is very important. There was segregation. There was discrimination. Thats very important. But the other side of the story, these communities really did build prosperous agricultural economies. They created schools and churches. And they, in the context of time and place and situation, they thrived, and the descendents who come back to these places for reunions, every year or every other year, celebrate a history of great pride and strength. Lot of positive things to say about these rural black communities, and we need to pay more attention to them. Thank you. Yes . My name is kevin mcgruder. Im an associate professor of history at antioch college, 20 miles from dayton. You may know that this last saturday, the klan marched in dayton, and pretty much shut down the city that saturday. It ended up being nine people. Professor madison nine klan people . And about 1500 demonstrators. Are ablehe reason they to do that, whether they are rubes or rhodes scholars, the klan has a history of terror, as a terrorist organization. People know what happened in charlottesville. So any time come to a place, people have to be prepared for that happening. And i do think that what you p resented, it seemed that you were underestimating the power of terror, whether violence is accompanying it or not. My family has roots in the south, and my parents moved to toledo in 1953. The first time they went to dinner, there was dirt in their salad, that was the welcome for them. The klan might not have been present for them, but whether not, there there or is this smilingface racism in the midwest, under this veneer of goodness, and that has to be challenged. And christianity, too. Not theistianity is christianity of the Good Samaritan, where we say, who is my neighbor . And when we dont do that, that gives power to those nine people who might be rubes, but they shut that city down. That city spent 600,000 in preparation. Thats terror, and that has to be named. [applause] professor madison thank you. Agree 100 with all that you have said. Should probably stop there. I agree with all you have said. The question for me is how we go about responding to this, and especially as historians and scholars. What are the tools in our armory upcan best deploty to stand to this . Im glad you cited christianity. My great hero, kurt vonnegut, has a wonderful statement, i hear all kinds of Old Testament quotations but i never hear the statements of beatitude. Where are the beatitudes today . Wheres the Good Samaritan . Issue, quickly here. Yes, these people, you can call them people if you want, i will not dispute that. You can call them dangerous. You can call them terrorists. I wont dispute that. But i would also argue we have a constitution, an american ideal that guarantees these fools the ohio. To parade in dayton, im very sorry that they are doing it. It is a threat to american ideals. And this is not just about race, not just about africanamericans, but about all americans, all these issues. Preachim starting to now, my wife will cut me off. [laughter] but we have to allow them to parade, i think. That bringing them out into the light would expose them, and they would wither away. Well, the numbers you cited are hopefully correct, nine klan speopole, 1500 demonstrators. They arent withering away, but they certainly arent winning the battle. I want to echo my appreciation for the previous question. Some of those questions were on my mind as well. Particularly going back into the historical realm of the 1920s, with the qualifier that i am more of a endingentury historian, w with the 1920s. Thinkingnterested, about really exploring further this issue of not just looking at lethal violence, but of thinking about violence much more broadly, thinking about it as terror, as psychological, and really thinking about trauma. I wonder what sources you have seen, or have been part of your project, or you would recommend for future projects, that get at klan survivors trauma from intimidation, from living with constant fear. And recognizing that this is very difficult, that we may be entering the realm of oral history, and we dont have the type of documentation of psychological trauma and intimidation to work with that we might wish. But honoring the fact that for those, and the main hat i wear is as scholar of African American history and indigenous history, that these events would register as very real, even if they were not the primary target catholics may not have felt like enemies of the klan, but to people of color it did not feel that way. How is that trauma acknowledged and documented in the historical record . Professor madison another very good question and comment, full of many, many questions and possibilities. It is very difficult to know. I think, virtually impossible to know. What this was like for victims, we have a handful of accounts that i know of, and im sure there are others i dont know, in which later on people wrote memoirs. There was a minister who was run out of his church who wrote a memoir of what it was like, how horrible it was. What we dont have much of are oral history interviews, and it is too late now. The generation before us missed this chance, and i sort of hold them accountable, because until very recently, until the 1980s, 1990s even, scholars didnt really much, with few exceptions, want to study this. So the oral history projects, at least in indiana and maybe someone in iowa or kansas is sitting on a beautiful oral history project on the klan, but not in indiana. That would enable us to talk ab out what it was like to be on the receiving end of klan intimidation. And again, i reiterate what others said, it is not just the intimidation, but the threat, and what that means for the individual, for the individuals family. That is so important, and so very difficult to get at. Im probably asking you to do something here that as a historian you dont want to do, to kind of reflect on two eras, one of them being the modern period. Harry truman said that as americans we tend to go through these periods where social immigration, modernization, et cetera, demographics, produce peroxides xysms of paranoia, he called it, in which we mainstreamed the more people parts of the american psyche. Surface into the ways that are may be tamped down in other periods, and we see a little more the better angels of our nature in those periods. Right now period where some see a mainstreaming of that less desirable behavior. Do you see analogs between where america was in the 1920s politically and socially that produced the klan, and where we are today, that has produced potentially an analog to that kind of thing, certainly charlottesville . Professor madison yes. I do. [laughter] outit scares the bejeesus of me. And no, i dont. For an answer . There are no truefalse answers. History doesnt repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme, and there are enough rhymes here to make me anxious, but these are different times. Quickly, i think there are more people today standing up to whatever it is that does not comport with american ideals the 1920s. Ere in there are more profiles in courage. There are more genuine attentions to american ideals, i think. I hope. Yes . My perception is the present time, there is growing support for White Supremacy in this country. If my perception has any validity, is that a legacy of the klan . Professor madison well, the klan didnt create pure white attitudes, prejudices. They picked up on them. They picked up on the scientific racism that was flourishing in the 1920s. They picked up on other currents, and they packaged it and presented it in a very marketable way ordinary people ordinary people in the midwest. And that continues. However, today i think the real dangers come not from the kind 100 puretatements of white americans. I dont think we see that much in responsible circles. We see coded language. We see activities based on some or all of a assumption of a white superiority, of a white race. But it depends who you are talking to, what you are talking about. The variations are very important and sometimes missed in our anxieties about today and where we are. Let me tell you my opinion. I think there is evidence for this, that there is a great deal of hope. Not just in my grandson james, but in many, many Young Americans under the age of 40. We dont think of some of these issues, particularly race, the way old white men think about them. The times have changed, and that is why i am going to continue to help that the moral arc has been bending. Opinion,lowly, in my but bending toward justice. Thank you very much. [applause] [captions Copyright National cable satellite corp. 2019] \ [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. Visit ncicap. Org] we will now adjourn for the third panel session. Thank you. You are watching American History tv, all weekend, every weekend on cspan3. To join the conversation, like us on facebook cspanhistory at cspanhistory. American history tv is on cspan3 every weekend, featuring museum tours, archival films and programs on the presidency, the civil war and more. Heres a clip from a recent program. We were married for 40 years, before he left on the cruise. We had two children. My daughter, who is in the audience now. She was three years old when her father left. So luckily, when he was shot down, the north vietnamese took a picture, and published it. So that was wonderful, because then i knew he was alive, or at least alive at that point. Write anyd not letters, and i found out after the guys came back why. And then i didnt find out until 1973 that he had died in captivity. Do you remember the day your husband foun the day you found out your husband was unaccounted for, what you remember . I was having dinner about a block away, with a friend of mine, at about 8 00 at night, and she got a phone call, apparently from one of my neighbors, and said that debbie, you need to go home, somebody wants to buy your used car. I thought, who wants to buy a car in the dark . [laughter] anyway. So we went in the house, i didnt see any car outside, and when we got into the house there was a knock on the door, and as soon as i saw the shoulder bars, 4,new, and that was october 1969. You can watch this, and other American History programs, on our website where all of our videos are archived. Thats www. Cspan. Org history. The house will be in order. Created by cable in 1979, cspan is brought to you by your local cable or satellite provider. Cspan, your unfiltered view of government. Army heritage days is an annual event held in may at the u. S. Army heritage and Education Center in carlisle, pennsylvania. Hundreds of living history hobbyists are selected by the center to conduct demonstrations and talk to the public about military subjects, ranging from the American Revolution to the war on terror. The theme this year was the 75th anniversary of dday. Next, on american artifacts, we visit an exhibit about world war ii soviet soldiers. My name is craig hall. I basically consider myself an amateur military historian. I do various impressions