Test. Test. Miss del greco, has the fbi ever you mentioned a while ago the facial Services Unit or something of that effect. Does that particular unit or any other unit in the fbi farm for images, photographs, other i. D. Type information on american citizens through social media or whatever platform. We do not, sir. Does the fbi, have they ever purchased from a Third Party Contract or wherever else images, photographs, i. D. Information . No, sir. The fbi retains only criminal mugshot photos. Okay. Mr. Chairman, i would like to ask to be submitted to the record, heres an article by joseph cox, of vice news, socio spider, a tool bought by the fbi to monitor social media. Without objection so ordered. I would like to submit for the record an archived copy of the sociospider. Com web domain that states that this software is used for on demand or automated collection of social media user data, like that to be submitted. Without objection so ordered. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Finally also i have i would like to submit to the record the purchase of ordered logs of the fbi socio Spider SoftwareService Agreement and individual user license purchased by allied associates international. Without objection so ordered. Thank you. Miss del greco, there have been software purchased by the fbi and i dont nowhere youre coming from to not be aware of that. Sir, i would have to find out from the other entities within the fbi. I represent the technology thats used for criminal justice purpose at the division. Theres another avenue of facial Recognition Technology taking place within the fbi that you know nothing about . Not that im aware of, sir. If you dont know anything about this, there is. We can look into it, sir. We most certainly can. So are you saying then that to your knowledge, theres no software, although there is, thats being used by the fbi to collect information on u. S. Citizens . Im only aware of the use of our system for criminal justice purpose, sir. Okay. And your system would include the systems of the drivers license database of multiple states . Our system does not retain drivers license photos. You have access to it. So theres two different systems . You have your internal system and this system that you can access. We do not have direct access. We a 2016 by georgetowns law center on privacy and Technology Found that you do have access to that. A total of 117 million americans which comes to about one out of every two adults that you have access to that information . That is incorrect, sir. We disagree with that. The fbi, through an active fbi investigation, can submit a photo to our face how many do you have access to . We can submit a probe photo to the state dmvs and they provide a candidate back. We do not have access to the photos. The study disagrees with you. Theres a precrime database if you will. I have a little bit of time and want to yield to the Ranking Member the remaining time. Thank you. I thank the gentleman. Miss del greco, just to go to this realtime surveillance. So has the fbi or any other federal agency to your knowledge ever used realtime surveillance sort of a continuous look at say a group of people at some location, has that ever been done . No, sir, not to my knowledge. To your knowledge no other federal agency has done that, the irs, any other agency has not done that . I cannot speak on behalf of the other agencies, sir. Real quick if i could, mr. Chairman, the numbers, dr. Goodwin, how many what number of photos does the fbi have access to in just their database . In just their database, little over 20 plus 36 million. 36 million. And then in the databases that they can then send information to and that are screened and used and theres interface, interaction with at the state level, what is the total number of photos in all those databases . Access to photos across all of the repositories about 640 million. 640 million photos. Only 330 Million People in the country. Wow. All this from the fbi has access to 600 some million photos, and this is the fbi that didnt comply with the five things they were supposed to comply with when they set up the system. And theyre still not in compliance with . So if you think about the Face Services system and then all of the searchable repositories, thats over 640 million photos, and the fbi really only searches for criminal. Theyre looking for the criminal photos. Theyre doing theyre looking through all of this for their criminal investigations. Across all the repositories, were talking over 600 million. Thank you. Were talking about people who have been arrested, right . Not necessarily convicted. Is that right . Arrested, by searching these databases, sir . Yes, maam. We would have to go back and do a survey. We do every 90 days go out to state and local agencies to see if theres any input they could provide to us. We do know there are arrests made, but its not on the identification of the photo. Its a tool to be part of the case that they have. Yes. If i could add one more thing about the 640 million. So most of those are civil photos, but those are thats what scares me. Say that again. Those are primarily civil photos. So were talking about passports and drivers licenses. Just regular every day people . Yes. Wow. Ms. Kelly . Thank you, mr. Chairman, for holding this second hearing on facial recognition. The governments use of facial recognition increasing, it is important this Nascent Technology is not rushed to market and that all communities are treated equally and fairly. Mr. Romain, in your testimony, you mentioned the report that is due for publication this fall on demographic effects and mug shots. Can you talk a little bit about this report and your objectives . The objective is to ensure complete transparency with regard to the performance of the algorithms that we evaluate and to see if we can use rigorous Statistical Analysis to demonstrate the presence or absence of demographic effects. That Statistical Analysis has not been completed yet. We have preliminary data that have suggested that demographic effects such as difference in age, across ages, difference in sex and difference in race can affect or can have differences in terms of the performance of the algorithms. However, the increased performance across the board for the best performing algorithms is, we expect, diminishing that effect overall. So in the fall well have the final report of demographic. I commend you for looking into this. When youre doing evaluations for companies, are you testing for demographic consistency . We do we dont test for specific companies on their behalf. We test or evaluate the algorithms that are submitted to us through this voluntary program. So we dont test specifically for algorithms demographic effects. Were talking about the demographic effects across all the algorithms that are submitted. And what are you doing to make sure no categories of people are suffering from lower rates of accuracy . The best we can do in that is to ensure transparency and Public Access to data about the level of the demographic effects. We have no Regulatory Authority to do anything about that other than just make the Data Available for policymakers to make appropriate decisions. Did you have a comment about that . No, okay. Mr. Gould, tsa has been partnering with cpb on biometrics for International Travelers. How much training did operators receive beginning prior to the Pilot Program at jfk and l. A. X. . The training was significant. I would say multiple days of training in how the system works, how to analyze the match results, and how to effectively use the system. What were the top complaints that were received during this pilot the complaints in the public . The top complaints, yeah. Maam, im really honestly not aware of any specific category complaints that rose to the surface. In general, the public seems to enjoy the enhanced Passenger Experience by using biometrics. Any complaints by employees . I would say employees in general, when you introduce new technology, the change can be somewhat challenging to use. But having just been down to atlanta and talked to many of the operators down there as well as the federal Security Director in charge of the airport, they embrace the technology and find it to be a significant enhancement to security at the check point. Okay. The report on disparities is due on july 2nd, 2019. Are you on schedule for publication, and are there any previews you can share . I dont have any previews available that i can share. The report has been completed in accordance with section 1919 of the tsa modernization act, correct . The report has been compiled and its on its way through the department to congress, yes, maam. Thank you very much. I yield back. Thank you. Thank you very much. Mr. Meadows. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Im not going to beat up on you, but i want to come back and give you two pieces of advice. One is and its the same advice i give to every witness that sits in that seat right next to gao. If gao isnt happy, im not happy. So heres what i would recommend on the five outstanding things, that you work with gao to close those out. The five recommendations that they have. Are you willing to do that . Absolutely, sir. All right. The fact that you only closed one of them out last week prior to this hearing is what i understand. Is that not accurate . I can tell you were smiling. So you didnt agree with that statement. Not that i disagree. We have been completing audits. We completed 14 of the 21, and i think goa felt that was enough to satisfy the issue. All right. Well, dr. Goodwin, if youll report back to this committee, what i would like in the next 60 days is the progress were making. Thats as gracious as i can be when it comes to that. Listen, we want you to have all the tools to accurately do what you need to do. The second thing that i would mention is you mentioned about not having any realtime systems. Yet we had testimony a couple weeks ago from georgetown that indicated Chicago Police department, Detroit Police department has realtime. They purchased it where theyre actually taking realtime images. Do they ping the fbi to validate what theyve picked up in realtime with what you have on your database . I mean, there are authorized Law Enforcement entities that have access to our system. We train them. We expect them to follow our policy. We audit them. I get that. But what im saying is were concerned about realtime. You have Police Departments in chicago and detroit that are doing realtime surveillance and getting you to authenticate that through your database. Is that correct . They submit a probe photo in accordance with a criminal from realtime surveillance. Not to my knowledge. Im not aware well, thats opposite of the testimony. What i want you to do and did they purchase that realtime Surveillance Technology with federal funds . So if youll get back to the committee on that. Absolutely. Yes, sir. All right. Thank you. Mr. Gould, im going to come to you. Some of your testimony and actually, ive been to dulles where we looked at cpb, actually looking at realtime facial recognition when travelers come in and out. So i guess youre saying that right now youre not doing that at dulles anymore. Is that correct . Because you mentioned only atlanta and sir, i cant comment on the cbp program because they do it for entry and exit purposes for International Travel. Tsa is not doing it there. Okay. So heres what i would recommend. Out of all the priorities the tsa has and all the inefficiencies that actually in this committee and other committees have, facial recognition certainly cannot be the top priority in terms of what were looking at to make sure our traveling public is safe here. Would you say thats the top priority that you have in terms of your achilles heel . Sir, positive identification of travelers is thats not the question i asked. Is that the top priority . Yes or no. Its one of multiple significant priorities for tsa. Whats your top priority . I would say there can only be one top, mr. Gould. This is a softball question. I would say at this point enhanced property screening at the check point, ct machines for the check point to do better assessment of carryon baggage. You mentioned the fact you potentially have actually taken photos of american citizens dropping off their bags. Is that correct . In my questioning earlier, you talked about the fact you might have part of tsa is looking at the screening process, where its not just a one on one. Youre actually taking photos of people at bag drops. Is that correct . Only if they choose to participate and only in one location and thats terminal f in atlanta. So you can guarantee because ive flown out of terminal or concourse f, i think is what it is. But ive flown out of that on delta. So you can guarantee that i was not photographed . Because ive never given anybody my permission on International Travel to my knowledge. So can you guarantee that im not picked up in that . Unless you were photographed while you were dropping off the bag thats my question. But thats my question. I gave no one permission to take my picture while im dropping off my bag. Im an american citizen. What rights, what legal rights do you have to take that photo . You should not have been photographed. So you cant guarantee that i wasnt. So heres what i would recommend, mr. Gould. I am all about making sure that we have screening, but i can promise you i have gone through screening more than most americans, and there are inefficiencies and tsas problem that has nothing to do with facial recognition. Until you get that right, i would suggest that you put this Pilot Program on hold. Because i dont know of any appropriations that specifically allowed you to have this Pilot Program. Are you aware of any . Because you keep referring back to a 2001 law. Yes, sir. Im not aware of any appropriations that have been given you the right to do this Pilot Program. Im not aware of any specific appropriations. Exactly. So i would recommend that you stop it until you find out your statutory authority. I yield back. Thank you very much. Before we go to ms. Lawrence, let me follow up on gentlemans request of ms. Del greco and dr. Goodwin. One thing ive noticed after being on this committee for 23 years is that what happens so often is people say theyre going to get things done and they never get done. So mr. Meadows, in the spirit of efficiency and effectiveness, has made a very reasonable request that you get together so that we can get some of these items resolved. So im going to call you all back in about two months maybe. Ill figure it out. Because im worried that this is going to go on and on. And in the meantime, im sure well be able to come up with some bipartisan solutions. But the american citizens are, i think, being placed in jeopardy as a result of a system thats not ready for prime time. And so well call you all back. So i hope that you all get together as soon as possible. Again, i say this because ive seen it over and over again. Well be in the same position or worse in three years, five years, ten years. By that time, so many citizens may have been subjected to something that they should not be. With that, i call on mr. Chairman, i just want to say, i appreciate your leadership on that and appreciate your followup. No problem. I now call on distinguished lady from michigan, ms. Lawrence. Thank you, mr. Chair. Doctor, do you think that thirdparty testing is important for the safe deployment of facial Recognition Technology . And i want you to know that i sit on the criminal Justice Appropriations Committee and funding for nist is something that i have a responsibility for. So i would really like the response to these questions. I think independent assessment of new technologies, particularly if theyre going to be used in certain ways is an essential part and one of the things were privileged to do. And how dependent are Government Agencies on nists finding . How dependent . Its hard for me to assess that. I think we certainly have collaborative relationships with dhs, with fbi, with other federal agencies, part of our statutory requirement is working with other agencies on advancement of technologies and evaluation of technologies. Is there a way that we can move forward that you can do an assessment so that we would know when were talking about the findings, which is a critical factor right now, is there a way we can move forward so we can assess how what is the role that you play that is played by the third party . With respect to facial recognition, we have ongoing evaluations on a rolling basis. So participants can submit algorithms at any time. We continue to provide open, public, transparent evaluation methodology so that everyone, federal agencies and the public and private sector, can see the results of our testing and make determinations on effectiveness of the algorithms. I, through the chair, would like to see you review those. Which organizations are currently equipped to accurately test new facial recognition technologies . Were certainly equipped to do that at nist. I dont have any information about other entities that might be equipped to do that. Do you believe that nist currently has significant funding and resources to carry out your work as the standard barrier of the facial recognition industry . Yes, we have sufficient resources today to be able to execute the program that we have in biometrics. To carry out. Thats the word youre saying. This is evolving and were looking at the challenges. Do you have enough funding for the r d and for the checks and balances for you to be the standard barrier of the record, the facial recognition industry. Nothing frustrates me more than for you to come before congress and say i have everything i need and then when you dont do the job, well, we didnt have the funding. So im asking this question, and i need you to be very honest with me. I would make two remarks. One is we have