His machine. Without the Cuyahoga River, the metropolis would not exist, the river was the reason for originally settling this portion of the reserves in the 1780s the river called crooked by the delaware indians provided a waterway to the interior of ohio and, so, man came and continues coming, until today, nearly 2 Million People live and work in the river basin. In creating this urban complex command has used the river as men have always use rivers. The flow has been put to work as a water supply and as a sewer. Mans mark is everywhere, is this mark an epitaph for the cuyahoga . Joining us from the cleveland area is David Stradling and the coauthor of where the river burned the carl stokes and the struggle to save cleveland. Let me be been by asking physically where youre located and explained what happened 50 years ago this month. Thank you for having me. We are sitting near the mouth of the Cuyahoga River, where the cuyahoga reaches lake erie so you can see over my shoulder one of the Railroad Trestles that crosses the river. There are a lot of bridges so downtown cleveland is to my left and to my right is ohio city in the city of cleveland. Were sitting in the area called the flats which is the land along the Cuyahoga River. They run up several miles, this is the former Industrial Area of the city of cleveland. 50 years ago on june 22, 1969, there was a fire on the river at the end of navigation a couple of miles south of your meaning boats could not go farther upstream. This is where a couple of low Railroad Trestles block debris coming downstream, thats not unusual, they got soaked in oil which was also not unusual and then there was a spark perhaps from a passing train that we dont know what set off the fire. The trestles burned and were doused by both a fire boat and cruise on the shore, photographers didnt get there in time to get a picture of the cuyahoga burning that time but eventually news about the cuyahoga catching fire became international in scope. So, this is what we are celebrating the 50th anniversary of the cuyahoga no longer catching fire. There had been previous fires along the cuyahoga but this was not the first. Absolutely. There were perhaps a dozen, maybe even more before the 1969 fire. Probably the one that became most famous is a fire in 1952, it became most famous because many people began to confuse photographs of the worst fire with the fire that happened in 1969. Thats because Time Magazine which ran a piece about Water Pollution in august 1969, either inadvertently or purposely use the photograph from 1952 and simply indicated that this was the Cuyahoga River catching fire that photograph shows a tugboat basically trapped in flames, it was a damaging fire with fire fires training water on a large oil slick that was burning at that point. So, most people outside of cleveland wouldve assumed that rivers dont catch fire on a regular basis but what they were looking at in 1969 in Time Magazine with a photograph of something that just happened and there the confusion only gets more extreme, people began to think that this was, in 1969, a catastrophic fire, there was tremendous damage done to it was five stories tall that it burned for hours and i even saw somebody say it burned for days. So, the mythology around what actually happened in 1969 begins to grow. My brother richard and i, as we research to the book i decided that probably the reason the mythology about the Burning River know why it grows so much is because peoples thoughts about Burning River, having to be a major event, this is a biblical thing, rivers dont catch fire. It must be a sign of terrible Water Pollution of the type that had never been seen before. Of course the many previous fires dating all the way back to the late 19th century is an indication that the pollution had been a long term problem in cleveland. The first reported fire going back to 1868, back to the Time Magazine piece describing the cuyahoga as a river that uses rather than flows and in which people do not drowned but decay. So, just how bad was the river . I dont think theres any doubt that the cuyahoga was a terribly polluted river in 1969. I do think it was not at its nadir, in fact the pollution was much worse and in the 1940s and 50s, this is one of the reasons why there was a significant cluster of fires in those two decades. One of the things the city did to improve water nullity or at least to diminish the frame ability of the river, is to regularly clear the debris from the river and to break up oil slicks with water cannons. But, that is not something that could be done ahead of the navigation. So, this particular fire was not preventable in that way. But quickly then like a lot of cities had been investigating significant amount of cities in it suet Sewage Treatment infrastructure through this 20th century. And i think our industry also had been making investment and in diminishing the pollution that it was dumping into the river and significantly the Oil Refinery Industry had basically left cleveland and the standard oil had closed the last of the major refineries. The Water Quality was bad the ecology the was greatly diminished but there was little reason for people to think of the cuyahoga as ecological space, to think of it as a complete river. At the same time, it was not as bad as it had been. Along with his brother david keys the coauthor of the book, where the river burned and he made his way from cincinnati to join us in cleveland this sunday and we welcome our viewers. We have our phone regionally for those in that eastern half of the country, and we do have a line set aside for ohio residents, especially if you live in the wheatland and akron area and we love to hear from you, if you remember the events from 50 years ago, 2027488000 two. I want to share with you the words of president Richard Nixon who was credited with the creation of the epa, heres what he had to say about our environment. In the next 10 years we shall increase our wealth by 50 . Does that mean we will be 50 richer . 50 better off, 50 happier . Or, does it mean that in the year 1980 standing in this place at this day in which 70 of our people lived in metropolitan areas, choked by traffic, suffocated by smog, poisoned by water deafened by noise and terrorized by crime. These are not the Great Questions that concern the World Leaders at summit conferences. , people do not live at the summit. They live in the foothills of everyday experience. It is time for all of us to concern ourselves with the way real people live in real life. The great question of the 70s is, shall we surrender to our surroundings or, shall we make our peace with nature and begin to make reparations for the damage we have done to our air, land and water . [ applause ] state of the unio address, David Stradling, as you hear that from Richard Nixon in 1970, one year after the from a 1970s state of the union address, one year after the fire along the Cuyahoga River, your reaction. I think its a recognition of just how powerful a political issue the environment had become. Nixon articulates it in a common way at the time which is to kind of suggest that things had just gotten so bad that now we finally have to deal with them. But, as my earlier comment suggests, the environment, particularly the urban environment around industry had been so bad for so long that mostly what hes articulating is a changing sense that now we need to do something because american citizens are demanding that they be given access to clean water and clean air, that there cities not be as filthy as they have been. I think this is mostly a recognition that a tide had changed but a series of events including the Cuyahoga River fire but also the Santa Barbara oil spill, theres a terrible pesticide spill on the rhine river a couple days after the firing cleveland. All of these things begin to build up, these spectacular events, to remind people just how bad the urban and industrial environment had become. As you look at the river behind you, how does it look to you today . Its remarkable, the change that is taking place here. Its twofold. Its difficult to tell exactly whats going on in the water itself because it still a milky brown river flowing out of agricultural and forested land and still has debris that floats downstream. But, we see waterfowl, we see something you wouldve never seen 50 years ago just people out kayaking and i saw people out in schools earlier. The cuyahoga has once again become a much more complete river. Its an agricultural space or im sorry, recreational space. There are new parks of Public Access across the river for people for the whole region. This is something that goes well self of the city of cleveland. The Cuyahoga Valley National park is become a regional and national treasure, its remarkable space for recreation , getting out of the city. Our guest is david, the co author of where the river burned and hes joining us from wheatland ohio, professor of history at the university of cincinnati. We want to thank the Music Box Supper Club before we take our first call, to put our cameras in place to allow david to share with us on site on the scene, what it was like there in the fact that its now a supper club that there are bars and restaurants along the flats that tells you what . Well, it tells us that this is a part of the city that clevelanders are interested in returning to. This is not an entirely new movement, in the 1990s, cleveland started to reimagine the flats that so much of the industry had moved out there is still an awful lot of very interesting architecture down here and mostly you see the engineering, its really kind of us attacking the space, the engineering of various bridges, which makes this an interesting place to be and in the 1990s, we had a bit of a kind of kindling of this culture down here by the flats and its come on much more intensely in the last five or 10 years, much more capital put in down here and this is really one of the highlight areas of clevelands culture. From nearby lorain ohio, sandor your first up the good morning. Yes, good morning. These rivers flow into the lake, lake erie. Lake erie brings in 100 billion of revenue every year. So, this pollution is very costly and let me just add to that that i live in the rain which has a river, black river, which also leads into the lake and, a couple days ago there was an oil spill on the late, and im sorry, on the river and, also, not to take away from the rivers but there was a lake where truck was found to be spilling out chemicals into a wildlife refuge in spencer blake. Thank you, sandra we will jump in and get a response. The center point out that obviously the problems of pollution have not been completely solved. There is still a lot of industry around lake erie and the other great lakes lorain has a steel mill that even hearing cleveland the major steel mills are once again up and running. I do believe theyve made African Investments and Water Pollution control and also air pollution control. But, no doubt accidents happen and there are, of course, other kinds of contributors to Water Pollution. Wheatland like lots of cities that grew in the late 19th century has combined sewers for sanitary sewage combines with storm runoff and, when it rains that means untreated sewage flows into the cuyahoga and directly into lake erie. We also know that lake erie suffers from nonpoint source pollution which is agricultural runoff mostly. So, as i tell my students, there are no permanent victories or environmental protection, its an ongoing effort and you have to adjust to new threats and new problems and to be vigilant about regulation and enforcement. I was born and raised along the source of the river, which is a big river and i can remember the phone used to go fishing with my dad and it was really, as a kid you know thats not normal but it was disgusting. That was in the 70s but i remember the commercial of the indian worry walked along the garbage and now, and that was never in there before that now its cleaned up a lot. Lately we seem to be getting back to not caring about protecting our environment because we won the battle and we do the same thing all over again with the oceans and all of that. Sooner or later we got to wake up because you cant keep polluting where you live at. Its just logic, making sense, if you state something to someone your tree hugger but all these crazy things being said, cant we just be a logical species. You dont go upstream and relieve yourself and go downstream for drinking water. Weve gotten kind of good with the environment, and we are plaguing ourselves and thats how i feel. We will get a response. I appreciate the reference to the foaming mommy river, hes referring to a period of time when detergents were asked adding a lot of phosphates and so, this is a new load of phosphates and they got close a lot cleaner but also waterways a lot dirtier and provided a lot of nutrients in it was a real problem in the mid1960s. That was solved the regulation, but that we no longer see see the visible sides from that problem but we do see visible problems in lake erie, including these gray algal blooms that happen every summer now, mostly contributed by agricultural runoff. I will say is a broader comment , the visibility of Environmental Issues can be really important to gathering political will its one of the reasons why the cuyahoga fire became so important because even though the image came from a different fire, the imagery of a river on fire really galvanized the whole. Its a recognition and its one way to see Water Pollution to see a river on fire otherwise, as i said its difficult to assess the Ecological Health of a river because you have to do tests and the issue of numbers and visibility. This is an issue that has plagued trying to solve the problem, the much larger problem of Climate Change. Its difficult to create this political valence it gets people moving the way nixon loves to move in 1970. Audrey is an excolor from decatur, alabama. Good morning. Good morning, i havent called in about a year but you all have really touched on that i have ocd about. Plastics. The plastic bottles, the plastic plates, the plastic jugs, ive told my sister and threatened to carry my cat later and i want to remind people know that this fourth of july, you cant find the little thin paper plates anymore, please, washer way and use your own silverware. We love all you all, just have a wonderful day. Thank you. Audrey, thank you. What about the plastic bags and Water Bottles and other debris . That is certainly an ongoing problem in the ocean into which they flow. But we see them floating down the river which is been a long term problem but now the plastic last much longer and doesnt break down. So, she is absolutely right. This is something that needs attention. We go back to the first earth day in 1970, the focus there for students it was generally to pick up trash, much less of which wouldve been plastic at the time. That, there again, that effort was about visibility that you can see theres an ecological and environmental problem because you can see the trash. So, even though it may not be the most urgent of issues in 1970, it was one that people felt that they could tackle that they could put effort into. I think that we see a lot of cleanup efforts along riverbanks and on the ohio im from cincinnati and every year we have a major cleanup around the riverbanks. And its a visible problem with a very visible impact when you pick up the trash. With history of the Cuyahoga River, the river that bends in cleveland ohio, there are reportedly at least 13 separate fires , the first dates back to 1868 the largest fire that we talked about a moment ago in 1952 at causing more than 1 million in damage and in 1969, Time Magazine described the cuyahoga is the river that loses rather than flows in which a person does not drowned but decays. A key person in all of this is the mayor of the and ohio and the subject of part of the cover story carl stokes, his response all of this at the time . So stokes is the first africanamerican mayor of any major city. And, he really understood the problems of urban america. He was raised in poverty himself hearing cleveland, he grew up in one of the most degraded neighborhoods in Public Housing in central. But he had kind of a unique view on the problems of urban america as far as major politicians are concerned. He well understood that concentrated poverty and adequate housing were primary concerns for residents in cleveland. But, he knew that cleveland itself could not recover if the Water Quality continued to diminish and particularly if air quality continued to diminish. So, unlike many politicians of his era, he was, when he spoke about the problems of urban america, he completely mangled the Environmental Crisis with the urban crisis. He tended to talk about both at the same time. Bypass solutions to one problem were not going to solve the problems of urban america you had to deal with all the problems that once. They were all interconnected. So, the day after the cuyahoga , fire on a sunday morning, so on a monday morning he calls and has his staff called together the local press and takes them on what my brother richard and i call the pollution to her. , they meet at the Railroad Trestles were the