Bloombergs last cspans last survey of president ial leadership. Brian doris kearns goodwin, author of no ordinary time, if you could ask either Franklin Delano roosevelt or Eleanor Roosevelt a couple of questions, after all the work you did on this book, what would they be . Ms. Goodwin i think with eleanor id like to understand why she was unable, at a certain moment in the middle of the war, when he asked her to be his wife again and stop traveling and stay home and take care of him, to say yes to him. I mean, i know that he loved her, i know she still loved him, and id want to say, why didnt you do it . Hes going to die soon. I wish you had done it. And i think for him id want to understand why he couldnt share himself more fully with anyone. He was the most ebullient, the most charming, most sparkling personality on the surface. Everybody thought how warm he was. But underneath, there was such reserve in him, and id want to try and understand why that was so, and why he couldnt give himself more to the people who loved him. Brian what makes this book different than all the rest . Ms. Goodwin well, i think what i wanted to do in this book was to understand not only franklin and eleanors relationship which has been looked at in many, many other cases but to understand the whole extended family that surrounded them in the white house. And i came to an understanding that these two characters really both needed other people to meet the untended needs that were left over as a result of their troubled marriage. So, what i came upon was a sense that the second family quarters of the white house were really like a Residential Hotel during these years, and theres about seven People Living there, all of whom are intimate friends of either franklin or eleanors. That was the part that was new and fun for me. Brian if you had to ask a question of either one of them about personal relationships that they had with other people, who would you be most interested in . Ms. Goodwin i think the person that im interested in for franklin is not simply lucy mercer who everybody assumes is the central romantic figure in his life because she had an affair with him back in 1918, and it almost broke up eleanors marriage but theres another woman that i think had an even more central role to play in his life, and that was his secretary, missy lehand. She had started working for him when she was only 20 years old, in 1920. She loved him all the rest of her life. She never married, and everybody in washington knew that she was really his other wife. When eleanor traveled, which she did, like, 200 or 250 days a year, she was the one who took care of roosevelt. If he had a cold, shed bring in the cough medicine to the white house. If he were grumpy during the day, shed arrange a poker game at night. He had this cocktail hour every night, and somehow shed be the one to be his hostess. She really was, on a daily basis, the closest person in the world to him. Thats the relationship id like to know more about. Brian you have, in the book, this secondfloor scenario and well get a closer shot here on some of these names why did you put this in the book . Ms. Goodwin well, it seemed to me that what the reader was going to get from reading the book was, i hoped, a sense of what it was like, 50 years ago, to be in the white house, and because each of these rooms was occupied by somebody who was very important to either franklin or eleanor their closest friends, in some case, romantic friends i wanted everybody to see how close they were; to see that they could Wander Around in the middle of the corridors at night and actually talk to one another. Brian what year was this . Ms. Goodwin this was 1940 to 1945. So these rooms depict that period at that time. Brian well, as you can see here, on the one end, you have Eleanor Roosevelts bedroom, and right across the hall is Lorena Hickok. Ms. Goodwin right. Brian now, who was Lorena Hickok, and what was their relationship . And this was the second floor of the white house . Ms. Goodwin right. Lorena hickok had been a former reporter for the associated press, and, in fact, in 1933 she was considered the leading female reporter in the country. She weighed about 200 pounds, she smoked cigars, she played poker with the guys, and she was really smart. And what happened is she came to interview franklin and eleanor during the campaign in 1932, e really close friends. She fell in love with eleanor, and more importantly, she probably helped eleanor become the activist first lady that she did. It was lorena who came up with the idea of Eleanor Holding press conferences every week. Only female reporters could come. So a whole generation of female journalists got their start because every newspaper had to hire a female reporter. She was the one who came up with the idea of a syndicated column that eleanor wrote every day, missing only the day that her husband died, and really helped eleanor transform the role of the first lady from a ceremonial to an activist one. And in the course of that she did fall in love with eleanor. Eleanor i dont think fully reciprocated it, but they were close enough friends that she wanted her living nearby. So she lived in the white house the entire time during the war. Brian also on this secondfloor schematic is you have a room in which Harry Hopkins lived in. And how long did he live in there, and who was he . Ms. Goodwin well, Harry Hopkins had been roosevelts chief new deal man, in a certain sense. During the 1930s he was the head of the work progress administration. He had been a social worker, originally. But when the war broke out in europe, in may of 1940, hopkins was staying overnight, that night at the white house, and roosevelt decided that he wanted him nearby. He didnt want him to go home. He needed somebody that he could talk to first thing in the morning, talk to late at night, and he made hopkins his chief advisor on Foreign Policy. Hopkins went to see churchill before roosevelt met him; went to see stalin before roosevelt met him; was really unprecedented in terms i mean, he makes kissinger look like a mildmannered guy in terms of the kind of power that hopkins had. And he was incredibly loyal to roosevelt. Brian how long did he live on the second floor of the white house . Ms. Goodwin he was there from 1940 to the end of 1942, when he got married, and roosevelt was sad when he eventually stayed there for about six months, with his new wife, but then she finally wanted a house of her own. Brian heres another bedroom. Its called the rose room, and you show that mr. Churchill, sara, who is . Ms. Goodwin roosevelts mother, the indomitable mother. Brian and martha. Ms. Goodwin right. Well, thats a pretty interesting room, that room. First, whenever the mother came, she wanted the best bedroom suite, and that was this room, the rose suite. She would come to visit, and maybe once a month, with her maids and her servants, and always being a duchess, in a certain sense, in the white house. And then, also, Princess Martha was an interesting character who she had come to washington during the war years, in exile from norway. Her husband was the crown prince, and her fatherinlaw was the king of norway. In fact, her son is currently the king of norway now. She was beautiful, she was long legged. Roosevelt always liked his women tall, or so it seemed. And i think she had a gayspirited kind of conversation that he just enjoyed, and eleanor somehow understood that he needed that kind of companionship. So she would visit on weekends, and keep him company in the movies, keep him company at dinners at night, often again when eleanor was away, and this would be her suite. But when churchill came, no one else stayed in the suite. Churchill was an incredible character during this period of time. He would come and stay for, like, three or four weeks at a time, and his habits were so exhausting that nobody else could sleep during the period of time he was there. He would awaken in the morning and have wine for breakfast. He would have scotch and soda for lunch; he would have brandy at night, smoking his cigars until 2 00 a. M. ; and when he would finally leave, after being in the suite for three or four weeks, the entire white house staff would have to sleep for 72 hours in order to recuperate from churchills visits. Brian you mentioned you had it in quote marks in the book that the relationship between Princess Martha of norway and fdr was romantic . Ms. Goodwin some of the people who lived in the white house at that time, suggested that she was his girlfriend, that there was a real flirtation between the two, and i suspect that thats what the element of the relationship was. It wasnt somebody he was working with, like missy lehand. It wasnt some political partner. It wasnt some old friend and companion. It was a flirtatious relationship. Whether it went beyond, you know, kissing and romance and just a sense of pleasure, i dont know, but it certainly was that. Brian also, you show that anna stayed in one of those rooms on the second floor. Shes there in this picture, in the middle, next to her father. What was their relationship . Ms. Goodwin well, what had happened is an interesting, and, i think in some ways, some of the most moving moments of this period of time, because anna had originally been her mothers daughter. When anna was a young girl, an adolescent, eleanor had told her the story of lucy mercer, and the fact that her father had had this affair with lucy, long ago, and anna had taken her mothers side. And, over the years, the two had grown so close that they wrote each other letters two or three times a week, and they saw each other four or five times a year, even when anna lived on the other coast. But what happened is, in the middle of the war, after eleanor rejected franklins quest to stay home and be his wife again, he got so lonely that he asked their daughter anna to come and take missy lehands place. Missy, by that point, even though she was only in her early 40s, had had a stroke, and she could never speak again. It was one of those devastating things for roosevelt, during the war years. And because he was so lonely without missy, and his mother had also died, just after missys stroke, he asked anna to come and stay in the white house. And then what happened is, in some way she became her fathers daughter. She had long legs, she was tall, she loved cocktails, she could gossip at night with him. All the things that eleanor never found it easy to do, anna did. And, after a while, i think eleanor began to feel displaced by her own daughter, so it was a very complicated set of relationships that developed during this time. Brian where do you live . Ms. Goodwin concord, massachusetts. Right on main street, right near where it all began. Brian why concord . Ms. Goodwin well, i think it was a compromise. I love the city. I grew up, actually, outside of new york, and my husband loves the real country. Hed prefer living in maine, so concord seemed to be near enough to boston that i could have my city life, and near enough to country that he could feel he was really living outside of the suburb more country than suburb. Brian whats your husband do . Ms. Goodwin his name is richard goodwin, and hes a writer also. In fact, just recently hes been involved in the quiz show scandal movie because his first job, after clerking for justice frankfurter, was to investigate the rigged television quiz shows, so hes having a great time right now. Hes being portrayed as a 27yearold actor on the big screen, feeling like decades have dropped off his life, so its really been fun. But mostly hes a writer. Brian where did you meet him . Ms. Goodwin in harvard. I was teaching at harvard. I taught a course on the presidency, and taught some American Government courses, and he came to finish a book. And i had an office at this little kennedy institute, and he had an office right next to mine, so thats how it happened. Brian and you dedicate the book to three people. Ms. Goodwin right. Brian who are they . Ms. Goodwin three sons. Probably the most important people in my life. One is in his mid20s; one is a freshman at amherst college, and the youngest one, thank god, is still at home, in high school. I dont want it to end. I wish they were four, six and eight again. Brian and how many books have you written . Ms. Goodwin three. Brian what were the other two . Ms. Goodwin well, the first one was Lyndon Johnson and the american dream, and that came out of the experience, that i will forever treasure, of having been 23 and 24 years old, and working for president johnson in the white house, and then helping him with his memoirs. I still keep thinking johnson is still around. I keep thinking hes thinking, this book on roosevelts is 700 pages. The one on me was only 350 pages. How can you do that . So that was the first book, and it was a great experience to try and understand that giant of a man, who i found so sad in his retirement, while he was at the ranch, that it was almost like he had nothing else left in his life once politics was taken from him. So that whole experience, i think, seared into my mind forever, and made up that first book. And then the second one was called the fitzgeralds and the kennedys, and it was a threegeneration history of the kennedy family; in fact, partly made possible by the fact that i was given access to rose and joe kennedys private papers that had been in the attic for over 50 years, because my husband had originally been on the white house staff with john kennedy. So we knew the kennedy family. So, i think one of the reasons why this book on the roosevelts means so much is that its really the first time ive had to slog it through as an ordinary historian, without the advantage of knowing Lyndon Johnson or knowing the kennedy family, so its been fun. Brian is there new information in the book . Ms. Goodwin oh, yes. I think definitely by choosing this period of time, and by focusing on the American Home front, rather than the battlefront for all the thousands of books that have been written about world war ii, there have been very few that focus on what happened here at home, and most of those have been essay kind of books, like a chapter on civil rights, a chapter on the japanese incarceration camps, or on women in the factories, but there have been very little evidence of trying to understand roosevelts leadership, how he mobilized this democracy. In some ways, i think, thats his greatest contribution, in a certain sense, to the war, even more than the strategy of the war itself how he got our country to produce the weapons for the war. Thats what won the war, in lots of ways. And turning around a peace economy; an isolationist economy; an economy that was still in the midst of a depression, and somehow making it so productive is a great story. Brian where did you find the white house ushers diaries . Ms. Goodwin this was one of my most incredible tools that there was for anybody to see. Theyre in the roosevelt library, and theyre on microfiche. And what happened is, at the end of the day, there would be a white house usher who would record everything that happened during the day roosevelt awakens at 7 00; has a massage at 7 15; goes to breakfast, and then theyd record who he had lunch with; who he had dinner with, and then you could use that as a foundation to go. For example, suppose he had lunch with henry stimson, or ickes or morgenthau, i knew that they all had diaries, so i could go to their diaries to find out what he talked about at lunch. Or theyd record that eleanor was with joe lash, and i knew that he had a diary. So, in some ways it was like the detectives tool. It was there for anybody to see. Theyre public, but they hadnt been used before. It was so easy and so wonderful. Brian quick definitions who is ickes . Ms. Goodwin harold ickes was the secretary of the interior, whose son is currently in mr. Clintons white house staff, and he was called the old curmudgeon, at the time. Brian morgenthau . Ms. Goodwin Henry Morgenthau was the secretary of the treasury, and, in fact, hes the subject of one of my favorite stories in the book, because roosevelt had an annual poker game every year, and it would always be held on the day that the congress was going to adjourn, and the rule was that whoever was ahead at the moment the speaker of the house called to adjourn would win. On one particular night, morgenthau was way ahead when the speaker calls to tell roosevelt hes adjourning at 9 30. So, roosevelt just pretends that its somebody else calling im sorry, i cant talk to you. Im in the middle of a poker game, and they continue playing, until finally at midnight, roosevelt starts winning, and he whispers to an aide, bring the phone to me, and the aid brings the phone. And the aide brings the phone. He said, oh, mr. Speaker, youre adjourning now. Thats fine. Roosevelt wins the game. Total manipulation. Everything is great, until the next morning. Henry morgenthau reads in the newspapers that the Congress Actually adjourned at 9 30, and he was so angry that he actually resigned as secretary of the treasury, until roosevelt charmed him back into it. But there was a real camaraderie among these cabinet members, at the time. They could play poker together as well as work together. Brian as a matter of fact, i remember somebody else resigning, at one point, and fdr wrote him a letter, and then he writes back i dont know whether i can find fast enough ms. Goodwin its ickes actually. Brian and then he says, i got fluttery all over . Did he talk that way . Ms. Goodwin its amazing. I mean, thats right. I mean, ickes resigned several times. Hed get upset about policy issues, and he would resign. So roosevelt wrote him a very gracious letter saying, you cant resign, i need you, youre so important to me, and youre absolutely right. Ickes then wrote back saying, when i read your letter, i got fluttery all over, i couldnt believe it. They did talk that way, and it showed the kind of awe, in some ways, that they felt for this man who was still their president. Brian i found it. It just says, your letter, ickes gratefully replied, makes me feel all fluttery. To have you write about me as you did, is like an accolade to my spirit, and he goes on. Ms. Goodwin [laughter] i know. Brian now, how did you go about this . Where did you work . Ms. Goodwin i worked, in terms of research, largely at the roosevelt library, and the wonderful thing thats in hyde park, new york is that it made you feel like you were going back in time, because the place, the house where roosevelt was born, the place that was eleanors cottage, at valkill, looks exactly as it looked when they were there. So s