When you were a little kid. You saw a rocket go off and said i want to do that. Is it that simple or that complex . I was interested in rockets in astronomy long before people get spell rocket. I was interested in it way back in high school. I went to try to build some rockets. I wanted to become a rocket engineer, as a matter of fact. Worked at the rocket society. I wanted to become a rocket engineer but essentially they said you have to go to mit or to caltech. I cannot afford either. So i took a secondary goal. I got an rotc appointment to wisconsin. From there i went to the Naval Academy. I got to the flight training. I became a naval air aviator. In 1958, nasa was formed and they were looking for astronauts. I was one of the original 110 people who were selected. Let me go back to the Naval Academy . That is right. This was right after world war ii. I got down to preflight. My mother, when i was at the university of wisconsin, told me to apply to the Naval Academy. 7z3 vi did it, never expectingo get a. I got orders from Bureau Personnel to report to the Naval Academy for the physical to be inducted into the academy. I had a big . Question mark . I was told i might architect into aviation. But there was an old captain there who told me if i wanted to make the navy my career, get up to the academy. From there, how did you givethe airplanes . I spent four years at the academy. My first class term paper i wrote on the development of the liquid fueled rocket. I just donated that to the academy. I was one of the first 50 because i was so much intested in going back into aviation. They selected 50 people to teach the plebes. I was transferred down to pensacola. What kinds of planes to did you fly . Snjs. I was transferred from there to kingsville. Actually corpus christi, then kingsville. My advanced training was in a modern airplane called hellcat. The l6f i got my wings and i was selected to go back into jets training. That was the epitome of everything. Did you enjoy flying jets . Yes. I still do if i can get my hands on one. They sent teams out because in those days we did not fly whole squadrons off of aircraft carriers. I told my skipper i was having trouble flying in the daytime. You want me to go out at night . But it was great experience. I learned a lot. Does anything compared to the first night landing on a carrier . [laughter] in those days we did not have modern techniques. You had to come in low. And there was a guy with paddles and a lighted suit. At what point do you hear about nasa trying to select people to become astronauts and decide you wanted to do it . I spent some Time Training people. Some of my contemporaries had already gone through a thing called test pilot school. I thought that would be an interesting thing to do. So i applied. I went and just as i graduated, nasa was formed. They were talking about putting a man in space. They had secret orders to all of the people in the air force and navy. To all of the people they found qualified. That was one of the criteria that you had to have. I was up for the original mercury selection. How far did you last . It got down to 32 people. I went out to albuquerque. To a big hospital out there. Lobos clinic. We went through our physicals. That was a physical like nothing no one had heard of before. They knew that they had guinea pigs. Not only should we be in good shape, but they knew we would go into an environment that was completely strange. They did things for background and data. When i got there and the next selection was to go on to a second group at Patterson Air force base for some more tests, the doctor called me and told me i was finished. I asked why . What is wrong . They said i had a high bilirubin. I did not even know what that was. It was too much pink pigment in your blood. I was very dejected. So this liver problem, even though it was a minor thing, they said no way . Lovell n gemini 12, buzz aldrin had the same thing i had. There was a unique aspect to that physical. I got back to the squadron and got a set of orders to go back to Patterson Air force base. My spper said these orders are probably not correct. I said i was taking them. I went out there and they were expecting me. The next morning we all went down to breakfast to get ready to start our physical. A guy walked in and said he was sorry he was late. He was gus grissom. I was not supposed to be there. I was packing my bags and going back to the squadron. How disappointed were you . Very disappointed. There was no indication past that original seven that they were can i find more guys . No one knew how far nasa would go. That was something i always wanted to do. How long did it take you from that disappointment to get back in the loop . I got back in the squadron and got transferred down to oceana. Turning aviation week, there was an article about nasa wanting to select more astronauts. Before i knew it, the navy called me down again. They asked me if i wanted to be another selection. They did not know i was kicked out because of a physical. I said sure. I put my name in again. I was selected again to go for the physical. This time at Brooks Air Force base. A much more practical physical. Looking at what is wrong and what is right. I had no problem passing it. That is how i got selected to the second group. Nobody knew what an astronaut was. But the second time he went, they were the biggest heroes of the world. That is true. I can recall vividly. We all gathered back in a hotel room somewhere saying they did not know if they want to get in the program to go into some wacky program when i should be getting up the ladder in naval aviation. Now i look back on it and think it was really something. How did the original seven except the next group . [laughter] very cool at first. And they were were pretty high on the totem pole. They were well known. The nine of us walk in. They warm up after a while. After some negotiations, we all got on the same bandwagon. Did you get one of those corvettes to run around and . After a while. We would by its wholesale a minute after six months we were traded in. I guess i went through three corvettes during my time that i was there. I lived at Ellington Air force base. I had a family and i needed a station wagon. That is what i got. How did your life change when he became an astronaut . Mr. Loll ve i dont think it really changed in a way. We got to be celebrities. But we did not do anything at first. I can recall the very first time i went back to milwaukee to my high school and gave a talk. I just went right to the school and went to. In the back of the room, the mayor of milwaukee was there. He was mad that i did not stop by and pay my respects. All of this protocol and new nothing about. I thought, i have not even been in space and people are asking me what is going on. So there was a little bit of false idolatry at the time. What was happening to you during those mercury days . What was your job . The first thing i did was to go down to Cape Canaveral and watched polly watch wally take off. We got into some of the simulators they had. They were not very good at the time. And we started doing some training. I was just talking today to a brand new astronaut and he says he is still going to camp. He said he was going through astronaut candidate training. I said when i went through it was is all hit and miss. People will come in and teach us a little bit about orbital mechanics. Then we would go to the plants to learn about the systems themselves. That is how we got most of our training. When did you turn into the Gemini Program and what was your initial job there . We started learning all about the spacecraft itself. My first assignment was as backup to gemini forur. I met ed white and i did not know it until we were down at the cape talking. He had been a plebe at west point and i was at the Naval Academy. We were having the breakfast at the cape when he told a story that was me. His job on that flight was a very big deal at that time . Guess it was yes it was. We had a squirt gun it was the initial attempt. He was out for a while. How did you train for a spacewalk . We got in the suits. We ahad this air bearing trainer. Which is only two dimsional. And then you should shoot these two little jets and try to maneuver yourself. Quite honestly, it was not any good. It was the best thing they could do at the time. It was not until gemini 12 that we learned what to do. So the mission takes off. What did you do while he was up there and you are on the ground . I was at the cape in the control center while he was doing all of his work. It has been a long time since you have gotten here. Are you ready to fly . Oh yes. I got here in 1962 and i went up in 1964. Tell me about that first flight . It was interesting. Frank and i were of the same rank. He had been air force and he got to be commander of it. It was a twoweek mission a medical flight. Two weeks with him and he places a challenge. [laughter] but this flight, we trained very hard. We had different kinds of suits. The very first takeoff was like it was flying us for a while. Pretty fast, we were able to get the idea of it. The spacesuit was pretty sight tight so i did not feel very nauseous. These were the old days when they were very worried about leaks in spacecraft. They told you you had to keep the suit on it all time, right . Yes, it was a rather ridiculous regulation. At one time i got out of my suit. And frank wanted to get out of his suit. The poor guy was hot and sweaty. They finally let him get out of his suit. My youngest son at the time said his dad had orbited the earth in his underwear. Which is essentially what we did. You said it was a medical, experimental flight. Did you feel like you were an experimental rat there . A guinea pig. The reason for the mission was the maximum time to go to the moon and back was two weeks. So they were seeing if they could put up people into zero gravity for two weeks. So we stayed up there. The spacecraft had a lot of problems. The fuel cells were dying. Frank does not like to even fly over water much less spend 70 of his time over water. He was anxious to come down. I told him do not worry, the navy can find us wherever we come down. There was some talk early on about landing gemini on the ground, was there not . As there was. But one of my jobs was the recovery aspect. We were looking at a kind of paraglider. We would come down and it would inflate. It would be a vshaped. And then the guy inside the aircraft could guide it down. It would be on the last one. The test results were not too good. They thought it was prudent not to even put it on their. There. Can you tell me how you spend 14 days with those cramped quarters and someone else without going mad . It is not easy. You have to remember we had worked so hard. I would have gone up there with anyone. You get to know each other quite well. It was something. Frank went nine days without having to go to the bathroom. [laughter] he said jim, this is it. I said frank, you only have five more days to go. [laughter] how was space food in those days . Strictly freezedried. These little bitesize sandwiches had wax over them. The wax would coat the roof of your mouth and it would taste awful. One of the best things they had on board those days were bacon bits. Little square bacon. That was very tasty. Then you put water into various freezedried foods. But it kept us alive. Looking back on it, all of that seems very primitive. But at that time it was stateoftheart when i look back at how ultraconservative they were. One person got a flack for taking up a sandwich. They were afraid of anything floating around. But now we have found out that if the food is thick enough, you can eat it with a spoon. What did nasa learn from these two experimental guinea pigs . Lovell they learned that the cardiovascular system would adapt quite readily. The heart slow down. Blood volume decreased. It was the fact that spaceflight is possible longer for the three or four hours that they had been doing it in the past. Was it does exciting as you thought it would be . Guest mr. Lovell it was very exciting to me. It was tedious work. We stayed up there for the fulltime. It was quite rewarding. All of these missions now, as you look back at them, they all seem to fit together. They all get us to the moon. But at that time you had to do something before we got to the moon. The first thing we had to learn about the subtle rendezvous in space. Could we get two spacecraft together. That could lead to docking. The first one was the gemini six and seven. They moved to gemini seven up to fly. When we were up there, gemini six is going to rendezvous. The first attempt to take off on gemini six resulted in a shutdown. The second time up there, they did. We were up there 11 or 12 days at that time. We could see them coming up. They came up at night. You could see the jets firing. We all. Rendezvoused. That was the very first big step. You then were capcom on 8 . And there was a problem. Talk about that problem. There was a stuck pressed thruster. They were trying to slow the thing down. It was starting to make them roll. They had already completed a rendezvous and docking. It turned out one of their thrusters was firing. They managed and they were very cool about it. They managed to pull the circuit breaker. Using their reentry thrusters, they were able to slow the vehicle down. They had to come back early. What happened in Mission Control when that was going on and no one is sure . Everyone is trying to think of solutions. The problem hits us all of a sudden. When they came back into radio contact, they said, we have a problem. There was not much we could have done in the control center for a problem like that. This was a serious problem . Of yes. If they did not correct the problem themselves, they wouldve been in deep trouble. Did that make you rethink the safety . In this business, and that problem was over there. Nothing was going to happen to me. Everything is fine. Dont worry about it. Spaceflight is so interesting, dont worry about it. The people who want to become astronauts, at least in those days, we were test pilots. We had that sort of curiosity and adventure spirit. Fewer were able to take that in stride. You are assigned to back up the gemini 10 crew. It was sort of fate. The 9 backups became the prime backups. We became the prime crew for the last gemini flight. That was gemini 12. Was that the last one scheduled . That was the last one. So it gave you an opportunity to fly gemini again . And you are involved with the spacewalking mission on that. Tell us about that. They decided to do some pretty detailed work outside of the spacecraft. It started with gemini nine. They were going to have an astronaut maneuvering unit. They got outside and try to do it. The handholds were not good. His visor fogged over. He had trouble doing things that he could do easily in training. Eventually he came back into the spacecraft and they abandoned that. They attempted work on 10. And also 11. All of us forgot about one of newtons third laws of motion. For every action there is a consequent reaction. And 12 rolled around, they thought about how they could do more work. Somebody said what about water . That would give you an idea of how zero gravity would feel. Nasa rented a swimming pull at a boys school up in baltimore. Buzz and i went up there. We put buzz in a spacesuit. I sat by him and communicated with him. We went through some of the basics. We had a crude mockup in the water. Learning about working in space. The proper handhelds and the toe sics. We had a crew mockup in the water, learning about working many space, learning about the proper handholds and toe holds to make sure everything worked. On 12 buzz completed three space walks, about 5 30, i guess, and everything was fine. Did everything we were supposed to do. No problem. It was a major turning point in the ability to work outside of a spacecraft. It also points out, why dont we try a swimming pool, were there people all along saying, why dont we try this or that . In nasa, there are a lot of people who use their imagination. It came to the forefront of 13, but, i mean, new ideas, that was the whole idea of nasa. New ideas, what can we do differently . There were a lot of mistakes. Blind alleys, perseverance, though, was predominantly in the program at that time. Lets keep on trying. Then comes the Apollo Program and apollo fire. Do you recall where you were when you heard about the fire. Yes, i was in washington, d. C. At the white house. I was up there for the signing of the space treaty which essentially meant that space is available to everybody, there are no boundaries. And that astronauts, if they have to land someplace else, will be welcomed rather than be treated as prisoners or Something Like that. We had just finished that thing at the white house and the four of us were going back to the hotel. When we talked in, there were messages for us to call nasa back and they told us what had occurred. We spent the night there. They said, dont go outside, dont just lose yourself. So we did. And the next day we went home. You were assigned to a panel to study what went wrong. What was your study job . Yes, there were some 20 panels, plus the major panel, and then there were 20 something panels. I was with jack swigert and ron evans. We looked at how we could cope with in flight emergencies, fires, to see what we need to have onboard and what we could do. Very interesting investigation. In my past career i was a Safety Officer an went through Aviation Safety School so some of the stuff i had learned back then, i applied at that time. I suppose the question that i need to ask in light of the fact this is a conservative safety minded group of people at this point, how in the world did apollo one happen . Well, i think, you know, when you look back on it, the fire in apollo one, we should have had plenty of warning ahead of time. We flew mercury. We flew gemini, all of those spacecraft were tested on the ground by puppet in pure oxygen so that they could breathe, you know, after the prebreathing because we flew at low pressures. On the ground, because spacecraft leaks, you always pressurizeit about a pound per square inch higher than the ambient pressure. Outside about 15. Pure oxygen. Now, for all the gemini flights, the mercury flights, no problems. But apollo, probably maybe due to the rush they were trying to do, the block one was a disaster anyway. And they pumped it up. We should have realized that you didnt have to put pure oxygen in that spacecraft. You should have put in a mixture anyway of oxygen and nitrogen because anything will burn in pure oxygen as we found out in the apollo one fire. Was there also any indication to be made for the fact that the contractors quit