Brian amity shlaes, why do we spend so much time in this country, and on our network, and in your life, talking about president s . Ms. Shlaes thank you, brian. Im glad to be with you and with harold. We talk about president s because people understand People Better than ideas. And we eventually want to get to ideas, but we get at those ideas through people, our president s. Brian dr. Holzer, im often i often want to call you even though youre not a doctor. Mr. Holzer thank you for that mixed introduction. Thank you for having me on the show, and welcome to Franklin Roosevelts home, from which we are broadcasting tonight. Why . I think amity has it right. I also think that we were blessed to have a first president who was a National Hero before he became president , and was a touchstone and an icon and created a presidency that was centered on both personality and ideas, but in large measure, personality. Everyone since has been measured against George Washington. And we look for extraordinary guidance, leadership, and inspiration from these, so far, men. Brian talk about this house in a second, but i want to ask amity, is there a house anywhere for Calvin Coolidge . Ms. Shlaes there is a house for Calvin Coolidge in Plymouth Notch, vermont. Thats near killington. Its near woodstock, vermont, if those are important points for you. And the interesting thing about coolidges house is, he was sworn into the presidency there by his father, by virtue of his father being a notary public. It couldnt be more american than that. When president harding died, the president had to be sworn in. And they did it right there by the lamp with the family bible. So its a very compelling site. Brian has been there. I think harold has probably been there. We welcome all of you. Brian the fdr house, this is one of, i assume, many places dedicated. What is this house . Mr. Holzer so, we are in the carvedout basement, not original to the house, of the townhouse that franklin d. Roosevelts mother built as a wedding present for franklin and eleanor roosevelt. Both families moved in in 1908. Fdr occupied, and his wife, eleanor, and their children occupied the east side of the house. Fdrs mother stayed in the west side of the house, and immediately opened the walls so that, as eleanor said, my motherinlaw was on our side of the house for the next 25 years, years. [laughter] sometimes at the least expected moments. Well leave that to the imagination. But this was fdrs political base. It was also the home at which he recovered from polio in 1921. Fdrs mother wanted him to go to hyde park and sort of retire in luxury, or rustic luxury. Eleanor insisted that he stay here, because here he could get his bearings back into society and government, politics. The house had two elevators, which made fdr immediately mobile once he got into a wheelchair. Here, he ran his campaigns for governor of new york. And here, he conducted his campaign for the presidency in 1932. It was his base. And this house, i guess, most famously, in terms of historical importance, was the transition headquarters between november, 1932, and march, 1933, the 4 months interregnum then that separated elections and inaugurations. And upstairs, a few floors, in fdrs modest library, the parameters of the new deal were forged, argued, and created, including, as i love to tell our audiences here, Social Security created in this very house. For which thank you, thank you, all. Brian are you on Social Security . Mr. Holzer barely, but yes. [laughter] brian ok. I would not ask amity that same question. [laughter] if Calvin Coolidge was here and you could talk with him, based on the book that you wrote and the way you look at the world, what would you want to talk to him about . Ms. Shlaes well, he would want to talk to us about the National Debt. And what he would say is, it may not seem as though it matters now, but it might one day, and what do you, plural, plan to do about that . Because coolidge did manage to his great feat was not a war. It was not a war victory, but it was a fiscal victory. He actually managed to cut the debt by one third, and whats more, he managed to cut the government, brian, so that after his 67 months in the presidency, the budget was actually lower than when he came in. And the audience always says, is that real, amity . Is that inflation . Did he restrict the growth of the budget . He actually cut the budget so that the number was lower, notwithstanding a population growth, very healthy, and Economic Growth of 4 . Its quite a feat to do that. And at times, it may seem it doesnt matter, but it can matter very much, particularly when our currency for example is challenged. When our currency, for example, is challenged. And we have a scholarship we give to honor Calvin Coolidge. And this year, we had 3,400 candidates, and each of them wrote an essay about what Calvin Coolidge would do about the debt. So, the point being to acquaint young people with thought about the debt and the knowledge that perhaps they may shoulder some of the burden of the debt. Brian you have spent most of your life thinking and talking and writing about Abraham Lincoln. If he were around, what would you want to talk to him about . Mr. Holzer well, first of all, i would forgive him the National Debt that he racked up. [laughter] because he thought of the First Federal income tax, excluding state and local deductibility, i might add. [laughter] well, i think, again, im going to reverse the question and take amitys approach. What would he want to talk about if he spent a couple of days looking at the headlines and going online, assuming he got into that rather quickly . Rather quickly. I think hed wonder why we havent settled some of the intractable divisiveness that he encountered and was forced to confront. He would wonder why, when he believed he set the country on a path to racial reconciliation, how that transformed into sectional reconciliation as the priority. What went wrong there in terms of speeding equal opportunity, which was one of the promises of certainly, the latter part of the civil war . I would ask him, the questions ive been storing up are whats with you and your father . [laughter] but thats just me trying to figure out what that relationship was all about. Why did you build pay for a gravestone for your valet, but didnt listen to your stepmothers plea that you pay for a gravestone for your dad . There were some deepseated problems there that have never been explained. And i guess i would ask, so whats with you and emancipation . Did you always plan, somehow, to be the liberation president . Wasnt it always in the back of your mind as someone who said, i have always been antislavery, im naturally antislavery. What was the real end game here, and did the ends justify the means, i guess. Brian let me go back to what i asked you about the fdr house. How hard is it, and ill ask both of you, how hard is it to maintain these institutions today . Mr. Holzer well, were very lucky at roosevelt house. When Franklin Roosevelts mother died, he, i think, could not bring himself to return to this house. They were very, very close. And fdr put the house up for sale. Eleanor had become very close to the students at Hunter College. This house is part of Hunter College, which is a part of the City University system in new york. She hung out in the hunter library. She brought hunter girls here for lunch. She only could make grilled cheese, but she made grilled cheese. [laughter] so fdr put this house up for the staggering cost of 60,000. Eleanor prevailed upon Hunter College to make a bid for the house. Fdr lowered the price to 50,000 for a double townhouse on the Upper Eastside of manhattan. And it opened as a multifaith, interreligious, multiracial place for the female students of hunter to study, to socialize, to join clubs. And it was that for many years, until the house began to run down, inevitably, because it wasnt wellmaintained. And then, under our Hunter College president , jennifer raab, money was raised to rehabilitate the house. And now it functions as a Public Policy center for undergraduates and a center for policy discussion, like we are attempting to have tonight. Brian attempting . [laughter] your question is. How about raising money in the name of Calvin Coolidge . And how do you maintain Plymouth Notch . Ms. Shlaes well, thats very difficult, because president coolidge was ambivalent about taking government money, especially federal money. And you can read it right in his autobiography. So the question is, did he cut off his nose to spite his historical face, right . He didnt like that idea, when his nice friends got together, this was before the law that pays for the president ial libraries to be maintained. His nice friends got together, Clarence Barron of barrons, the magazine, and so on, and got some money together, coolidge didnt know quite what to do with it. He was very grateful to his beautiful wife, grace, for tolerating the presidency. And she was a professional lady. She was an instructor of the deaf and had trained at the Clarke School in northampton, massachusetts. And coolidge thought about it, and he thought it might be vanity to have a president ial library with this money, and so, he gave the money from his friends to the Clarke School for the deaf so that his wife might have what she dreamed of, and also, he thought he might go. He had a weak heart. And he wanted her to be professionally recognized, and of course, the most important lady in the town, which she was through the rest of her life, and that benefited many, many generations of pupils and teachers at the school. However, what did it leave . It left plymouth, his birthplace in vermont, a little challenged. We have the Calvin Coolidge president ial foundation there. We dont take in my time there, im the chairman, we havent emphasized federal money. We try to raise money ourselves to honor the president s philosophy. And in addition, we now have coolidge house in washington. Place is expensive, but place is worth it, because people come, and they can think differently about their subject, about a president if they know something about him. So for coolidge house in washington, which is by georgetown, were currently having a graphic novelist draw coolidges life so that all the children and adults who come to coolidge house can walk away with coolidges life in mind and some knowledge of it. In vermont, the state, our wonderful partner, that of the coolidge foundation, maintains the show, all of the objects, and does own many of them. And this summer, there is a show about Calvin Coolidge and grace coolidges pets. [laughter] numerous. There is an apocryphal statement, but i will still attribute it to him, that he said you really shouldnt be president if you dont understand about pets. Pets are very important, including rebecca the raccoon, who is featured in this show. [laughter] brian i want to divert just for a moment, because i had the pleasure of interviewing both of these people on many occasions. But amity might remember an event we had some time ago, when you came in, and i want you to complete the story. This is a very painful thing for me to bring up, but i have to get it on the record. She came in to do the interview in a nicelooking red dress, and she said to me, this is going to be a very important interview, because my grandmother watches this program. Then what happened, amity . Ms. Shlaes oh, then the tape did not tape. [audience exclaims] and brian put it in the can, but it was blank. And brian and the poor young man, who was a new hire, i believe, brian he is still here. I believe. Ms. Shlaes he is still here. A tribute to mr. Who saw passed over that, were very upset and i had to come back another day and tape the whole story again. It was the tax book. It was a book about the tax code, too, so exciting. Brian in 30 years, its the only time its ever happened. But its very painful to remember it, but i wanted you to put it on the record. And she did come back. I mean, she had to come all the way back from new york down to washington. Now, mr. Holzer, i know that there have been some questions that ive asked you over the years. People dont see it off camera. I remember the one in particular when i asked you, we were in fort wayne and i asked you, do you know where fort wayne, indiana is . And you were unable to describe it. I just want to give you the same opportunity to take a shot if of something ive ever asked you in the past. Mr. Holzer you didnt say you actually said, were here in fort wayne. Where is fort wayne, in indiana . And i said, i dont know. You said, spoken like a true new yorker. Painful, painful. What have you said that has pained me or made me blanch, whatever that is . Brian but you dont have to you dont have to go beyond that. The first time we were on air, 26 years ago, for some perverse reason, you asked me if my mother worked, and i said, no, shes a housewife. I know its a terrible thing to say. I was nervous. Id never been on cspan before. And she was really upset with me. [laughter] and she lived until she was almost 100 and never let me forget that i said that. [laughter] i blame you. But she liked you. She didnt like me that much, but she liked you. [laughter] brian thats the first time ive ever heard that story. Mr. Holzer can i tell one other story . Brian if you insist. Mr. Holzer brian and i like to have dinner in washington, and brian is one of the most recognized people in washington, d. C. The problem is, most of the people who recognize him think he is john glenn or john mccain. [laughter] ive been with him when people come up and say, what you did for the Space Program is the best. [laughter] the best of these happened at the mayflower hotel, after a dinner. Someone came up to brian and rushed out of the restaurant to the lobby and said, oh, mr. Lamb. I said, this is good, she knows it is brian lamb. Brian so far. Mr. Holzer mr. Lamb, ive always wanted to meet you. I have to tell you, i can never go to sleep until i watch you on tv. [laughter] brian to tell you how bad it is, since i have been in new york, i was walking down the street yesterday, and a couple walked by me, and as they walked by me, the woman said, that is john mccain. [laughter] ok. Back to president s. [laughter] i really want to ask you this question, if you had to pick between fdr and lincoln, what would you do . You are working mr. Holzer whos writing the check . [laughter] they obviously belong in the top three. Roosevelt dealt with two emergencies, in a state of diminished health, which i find extraordinary. Lincoln destroyed his own Health Working for 4 years on the existential crisis that challenged the country and determined whether it would survive. So i would like to get them both in a room and talk to them both, but i dont choose. Im privileged to have created an association with lincoln and to have had this thrust on me unexpectedly four years ago, and get to work in this inspiring place. Brian in this book that we are fortunate enough to be able to publish, there are 44 historians and thats the important work in the book published by Public Affairs and peter osnos and a company who have done all of our books over the years. I want to get back we do have a survey in there and we dont need to go through the details now, but 27 is Calvin Coolidge. Why do you think why he is at 27 instead of either lincoln at one or fdr at three . Ms. Shlaes well, thank you for asking that. Of course, i think coolidge should be in the top five, and i would defend that. [laughter] president ial rankings a bit like any game updown. Its zerosum game. If someone goes up, someone must go down. And i would say, i think economics features here. And if you think Franklin Roosevelt was a wonderful economist, you think Calvin Coolidge was a poor economist. Its sort of like that. In a way, its impossible to i do but for most people i would say its impossible to like both president roosevelt, be a roosevelt person, either a tr person or an fdr person, and be a coolidge person. So, its binary like that. And it oughtnt be. Every president has his charms. But whats behind that, there was an economist at wake forest named whaples, whaples, who had whaples, who had a look at what historians thought about president s, economic historians and also economists thought about president s. And one of the things, he also looked at what they thought about economic events. And about half the economists thought roosevelt made things better in the Great Depression of the 1930s. And about half thought he made things worse, the new deal made things worse. If you surveyed historians, people with a phd in history, more or less most of them would say roosevelt made it better. So you have a culture in history which tends to the progressive, and the historians have the pens, so thats just the way it goes. Youll notice Grover Cleveland didnt do so well, and hes doing worse, and thats because history is moving leftward in our adulthood. So i think thats why coolidge doesnt do so well. His econ is not known or understood. It doesnt fit in the modern framework, even which professional economists have, hes really a prewar economist. But he is a good economist and his prosperity was genuine. Mr. Holzer could i just comment . Brian no. [laughter] mr. Holzer im not going to challenge you. Im just going to say that the one added element that distinguishes lincoln, roosevelt, and others in the top group as ranked by the historians is communications ability. And i think the magic of roosevelt, if you go past