Center and the Southern Oral History Program at the university of North Carolina chapel hill. Dr. Terry, i think i know that your parents drove you to the college here in fall of 1957 . Esther yes, they did. What did you discover, arriving at Bennett College . Day. Erry it was a big i came from someplace, did not show up. I came from being supported by the whole community. They pray for me at church. We did not have a lot of money. Had a little scholarship. I hadtaken the sats, so havewell enough to scholarship money. And i was going to work a little bit. But there was always that i came, being born, by the good wishes of the community. An awfully came to Bennett College. I had never been to Bennett College before. To reimser been borough before. Justd here to have sort of solid up, my parents and me, and all of us, by a lot of parents and a lot of students come all being deposited by parents, and it was a lonely feeling when they said goodbye and left. It was very lonely. Tell me about some of the people who would, you know, short order, become persons who were important to you here on the campus, faculty, staff, fellow students. Dr. Terry as my parents were getting me situated in my room, there was a woman bringing her daughter there was a girl, being deposited from West Virginia. And her mom met my mom and i talked. How her mom told my mom how they talk and just told each other so much in so little time, i will never know. But here is what got established in that little while. Mother had other children in college at the same time, and so she immediately knew he roslyn she told immediately she would not be coming home, ros, that is. Ros wouldnt be coming home. There was not going to be money to bring roslyn home except at christmas time and in the summertime. My mom told mrs. Smith that we lived a couple of hours up the road, and they would be driving back to see me often. Quite often. Home i could come home for things having thanksgiving. I would come home whenever, you n couldnd that rosly come home with me anytime. Mrs. Rs. Smith and Alexander Soto bonded that day. Sort of bonded that day. And they exchanged children. Rosm becamge surrogate mom, and ros mom became set of my mom, although it would take a long time before i got to West Virginia to meet her mother. Ros went home with me that very first break that we had, and she went home with me for all four years. My very best friend, to this day, is roslyn smith. She is actually living in greensboro. Retired here some 10 years ago from new york, where she had been working in social work. So she came back when she retired to greensboro. I often laughed at her and say, whyd you come back to greensboro . Did bennett have anything to do with it . She came back to greensboro and then, of course, when i took the job here, she was delighted that she is here. And so, we are where we met. She was, as i think i understand, was on a really kind of a different part of campus in the classroom, so to speak. Because she studied sociology and political science. Dr. Terry she studied sociology and political science. And you were doing english and theater. Dr. Terry i was doing english and theater. Tell me about the world of being an english student and a theater student in those late 1950s. Dr. Terry oh, my goodness, it was wonderful. It was wonderful. My english professor was hobart jarrett. Well, i had several, but dr. Jarrett was the man who taught me literature. Dr. Jarrett, what a wonderful man. What a brilliant man. All of my faculty were. Dr. Jarrett was hard. He was tough. He exacted absolute perfection, and we were arrogant enough to think we could give it to him, you know. He really had us just charmed into thinking that we could write anything, we could articulate any idea, we could debate anybody. He was just a wonderful teacher, and he empowered us a great deal, but no nonsense. So, i was very much engaged with him. He would walk on campus and say then there was dr. Crawford, who taught us grammar. He was less i do not want to say he was less polished, but he was less polished. That is a fact. He was less polished. But he was a terror. He did not like you to split verbs or anything of that sort. So, he taught us grammar and he would have us at the sentence. He would make us parse verbs, and he would make us diagram sentences. He was tough. I do not think i was one of his favorite students, but i was treated kindly by him, because i could diagram a sentence, you know, and i got on out of his way. He was serious. You know, he was just a serious man. And so he was not quite like dr. Hobart jarrett. In the theater, we had fred allen eady, who had come to us from howard and was a terrific director. And we got him married. We thought he needed to be married. We selected the lady on the campus that we thought he ought to be married to, and so we bought her we collected money and bought her flowers and sent her flowers and said they were from mr. Eady. But we told him. We told him we said, now we took this lady these flowers. You should follow up, and we put your name on it. He did. And you want to know something really funny . They got married. We always took credit for that. Bennett was wonderful. What can i say . I lived in the honors dorm, which was kent hall. We were very proud to be bennett girls, because we were taught every day that we were as good as anybody in the world and better than a lot of people in the world and had responsibility to help those who werent as fortunate as we were, that there was something in life that required us to be as good as we could be and to give back to the communities from which we came. It was that sense that led us to be cognizant of what was happening in the community, helping people to get registered to vote, understanding the importance of registering to vote, and getting people to do that, taking ourselves into the community to be helpful, to help people in the ways that we could, to conduct food drives, to the whole sense and to talk about the community. You know, i grew up thats very important what im saying. Not to you so much as i reflect on it, why i think it was important to me that they taught us these things is because, you see, i talk about having been happy when i was growing up as a youngster. What i mean is that i felt safe, that happiness was somehow connected with being safe. But i can remind you that in that time the whole southern terrain was dotted with white only signs, with signs that said, you know, coloreds or negro, signs sort of, that sort of they were reminders that there were places that, that you couldnt go and there were places that you ought not to go if you wanted to be safe. So, safety was a part of being happy. And when you were cocooned in safety and you were just such a and thats what this campus was. This campus was a place that we knew that we were taken care of. Now, we were asked to give all we could give in the classes, but we also knew that we were special. And that is why it was inevitable that we entered into the sitins. We knew they were wrong. You see, you cant have someone inside the gates being taught how they could be the best of everybody in anybody, they could be everything and then walk right out the gate and be told, you cant sit here. And i think its very important to know that woolworths became an ideal that you cant sit down for a coke. Now, you know you could go into woolworths. Woolworths was not closed to black patronage at all. You could go into woolworths. You could buy anything you wanted that they sold in woolworths, if you had money. You just couldnt sit down to get a sandwich at the lunch counter. So, it was the lunch counter. You couldnt sit down there to eat. So, you see, that stood in stark contrast to all the things that we had going on here at bennett, where we dressed for dinner in the evenings and sat with tablecloths and we learned, you know, which fork to use and how. And we went downtown wearing hats, and we wore gloves, and we were bennett ladies. You can see how it wouldnt it was just such a jarring thing to be told, well, bennett lady, guess what . You cant sit down there and have a cherry coke. So, those they were things that got us it was diseased, as it were. Its uncomfortable. One cannot square those two things. Did you, through these, through your first couple of years of college i mean, you being a College Student is a very encompassing and engaging kind of experience when youre happy and thriving in your classes and all. What portion of your attention, in some broad kind of sense, did you give to these wider questions . I mean, little rock is happening, the first desegregation of the local greensboro schools is happening. Dr. Terry yes. There are some early lawsuits moving through the courts filed by people like dr. Simpkins to try to dr. Terry yes. How much of that was a part of your, you know, what you gave your attention to, because there were lots of other things that were keeping you occupied . Dr. Terry there sure were. But i told you a part of bennett was always that the education at bennett was to prepare you to make a contribution to the world and to be reconnected into your community. My classmates had experiences before we got here. Even i didnt come here, you know, sort of from mars, where everything was great, and we never had a sense that there was there could be clashes between whites and blacks. We all knew about those things. I, you know, i grew up hearing and knowing about such things. You know, my brothers were my mother worried all the time about what would happen. So, what i mean when i say we were safe is exactly that. A storm is going on around us, we are aware of the storm, but we can also feel safe in here. And thats what i meant when i said that safety was a very important part of how i, i think, became was a healthy person. Because i look back over it, and i think was healthy. I think i mean a healthy ego, a healthy psyche, growing up in that. I dont think it damaged me in any way. Now, i might be wrong, but i dont think i grew up with my mother was wise, and she would talk about these things to us precisely so that they wouldnt scare us so much or they would we would know how to live with them. My mother would tell us she didnt want us to hate white people. My mother had this rule she wouldnt let us say they when we talked about white people. She wouldnt let us say, they did soandso. No, no. So, one day she took a piece of chalk, and she wrote they, and then she erased the t on one end and she erased the y. And she said, now its he. You come and tell me what he did. You name him and you name her, and we will deal with that. But you will not ever speak of all white people as bad or having treated you bad. And, you see, we had we understood that. So, we couldnt afford to be shielded from what was happening in the world. I just am always grateful that my parents taught us, i think, the best way to negotiate it. She told my son as i said, i have one son. And hes always so pleased to remind me that, when he was home talking to his grandma, he told her something about some white people doing something. He said, grandma, why did you, why did you let them do that . Why do you let them call you mary . She says, mike, you know, theyre as good as they know how to be. What are you going to do with that . Theyre as good as they know how to be. And so, there was a way that she my mother allowed us to have an ego about who we were, and she wouldnt let anybody damage that. So, we were just told. She said to mike, theyre as good as they know how to be. But what are you going to do with that then . Theyre as good as they know how to be. But to come back to your question, so here, yes, we had dr. Edmunds. We had roslyn, my friend, was in sociology. Well, they didnt talk about we had a life out there. They talked about issues. We talked in our classes about what was happening in the world. We didnt pretend that the world wasnt out there. I think you missed dr. Kings appearance on the campus in 1958. Is that correct . Dr. Terry yes. 1950 nine, things especially fall of 1959, of course, the momentum is gathering and will soon lead to some direct action protest. What do you remember about the fall of 1959, and some of the women on campus, of course, were talking very actively and really thinking very hard about this question . Dr. Terry well, it really started in the my classmates who were in the sociology classes. They took sociology, roslyn smith, gwen mackel, shirley dismuke that group. Gloria brown. They were the ones that were engaged, engaging in an intense way. But, you see, they would come back to the dorms and tell us what was happening. And, as i say, roslyn was my best friend. We knew what was going on. We knew and you start as a theoretical, how do we conduct ourselves in the world if that is the case . And then, someone says, why dont what would happen if we boycotted . What would happen if that how can these barriers be torn down . These were questions that were being asked. You know, there had been sitins before. Greensboro was not the that was not something that never happened before. There had protest before. There had been marches before. Bennett girls had been engaged with protesting the showing of the film birth of a nation, which is a pretty ugly film and its stories. Youd done Voter Registration work. Dr. Terry we had done Voter Registration. I dont so i cannot tell you exactly and precisely what moment, you know, there was this great epiphany and we did things. But what i end up knowing was that students were planning and talking about a boycott, going downtown and picketing, what would happen if they picketed, what would happen, and then it went from picketing to, well, what would happen if we sat in, sat down at the lunch counters . And so, these were conversations that were being talked about. Students were talked about training in nonviolence. Thats exactly what thats a route that people dont often remember is that these students were dr. Edmunds and our faculty talked about, what does it mean to be nonviolent . You remember king was talking about nonviolence. What does it mean to be nonviolent . If somebody hits you and you hit them back, you know, whats to be associated with that . How do you conduct yourselves . Is it dangerous, you know, what happens . So, it was in the air. And we were here on the campus, and, yes, we talked about those things. Do you think that these you described and named a group of women who were very much active in these kinds of conversations on the campus and friends of yours. Do you think that, among those women there is a sense that, that they were well, let me ask this way. To what extent would they think they ought to be placed in the how much should they be credited for the full realization of that impulse here in the Community Among students, and now were reaching across over to a t, that opened the door to direct action protest . Are they credited sufficiently i guess is the right way to dr. Terry they would say not. They would say they are not. Dr. Terry they would say not. Talk a little bit about that, if you would. Dr. Terry back in two years ago, i, for the 50th anniversary of the sitins, i was here as a new provost and i remembered those days, so i called a group of them to come back to talk about that. And so, we had a retrospective. Gwen mackel came, shirley dismuke came, delores finger came, roslyn smith came, linda brown was here. We were in the chapel and we we talked about that, and they would say, no. Heres how they talk about it. They say that they, indeed, did not argue with the fact that the four young men at a t were the first to sit down. But they say that it was not spontaneous, that it had come that action had been born of a plan that had been carefully, carefully considered and deliberated, beginning here on bennetts campus with the girls, and that they had, in fact, been happily considering it. And dr. Jarrett had said to them, well, you girls shouldnt get engaged in doing that alone, because, you know, this is the girls must be protected, right . So, they were encouraged to invite the a t boys to sit with them and to plan this sitin and what it would be, because, you see, were talking about something that could be very dangerous. Nobody asked their parents. Our parents did not send us down here to go do that, you hear me . And they would not have been happy maybe. Some of them might have. Because our my classmates have wonderful stories about their lives. Gwen mackels parents had been run out of mississippi because of her dads political actions. These young women werent babes in the woods. I had my own father had had his, you know problems. We had shirley dismuke said she just couldnt figure out nobody had ever asked her to sit in the back of a bus or anything, you know. So, we all came with a real deep feeling that thats wrong. Thats wrong, and we knew that, so they wanted to correct it. And to be educated and not do anything about it was not your education wasnt going to mean very much. So, these girls would tell you that they worked very hard, they discussed everything, and they can tell you that they, that dr. Player, our president , was involved as well. And dr. Player was told, and dr. Player said she couldnt tell us not to, her girls and we were always called her girls she couldnt tell her girls not to engage in that. But she did point out that it would be sort of folly to start the sitins, to start the action before the christmas vacation, because if you started it at thanksgiving, say, for instance, and then everybodyd say, sorry, ive been politically active, but ive got to go home now, and ill come back. Ill see you after the vacation. So, she said she cautioned them to wait. And they did. And they told all of us, when they came back that they were all ready to start. And they came back. And on february 1, was it, the young men sat down. Now, heres an important thing. I asked gwen mackel, gwen, where were you on that day when they sat down . She said, i was in woolworths. What did you why were you there . She said, because we were there but first, you had to go buy something. See, we knew how to do it. You had you couldnt because we had been trained that, if you didnt buy something, you could be tossed out of the store, you know, for trespassing. So, you buy you go in the store, you buy something. And she said, i was standing, waiting. Because it was a plan. And it did not it was a plan that had been created here on the campus. And so, the girls would think that they did not get enough credit. Thats what they would think. Of course, very quickly, many other students take places at the lunch counter, and there are dr. Terry yes. There are carpools and careful assignment of rotating shifts of students and all. And you sat down there, too. Can you dr. Terry yes, i did. Beside linda brown. Beside linda brown, thats right. Can you take us back and kind of describe the experience you had and the feelings that that generated and what you saw around you . Dr. Terry i think we might have been young, because, honestly, i felt proud. I dont think my mother ever felt maybe