Vernon hosted this program, and monticello provided the video. We are pleased to partner with mount vernon today to bring you a special q a session with Thomas Jefferson, as portrayed by bill barker, and george washington, as portrayed by dean melissa. I will be moderating doing your questions for these Founding Fathers. Gentlemen, thank you so much for being with us today. I look forward to a fascinating conversation. Bill my pleasure. Thank you for being with us. I could not be the more delighted to welcome my old friend, general washington, to be in company once again. It has been a time, general. Dean it has been, sir. It is actually my pleasure and my honor to be with you, although i confess i do not rightly understand how this is happening. Bill i believe, general, it is because of one of the duties written explicitly in our constitution, one of the duties of the legislative bodies, the pursuit of science. Dean which im a strong supporter of. Our first question for the two of you. What do you remember about your first meeting . Dean our first meeting. You know, if you will allow me, mr. Jefferson, i reckon those who are viewing may or may not be aware that there is an age difference between us. I am older than yourself by 11 or 12 years. Bill 11 years, your excellency. And we were both born under the old style calendar. Dean ah, thats correct. Very confusing at different times. But i actually believe i remember meeting a young thomas, the son of Peter Jefferson, on my first survey trip. I was a young fellow myself, and Peter Jefferson and colonel were engaged in leading that survey. I traveled to the west world and likely came in contact with a young boy, truth be told, although i have no clear recollection of that. It is interesting this coincidence regarding joshua fry and Peter Jefferson because they were the best of friends and colonel fry died in the french war on a horse accident. I became a colonel at that time. I became commander of the virginia regiment. I continue to travel west to build the fort roads and such. But it is likely that we came in contact with each other in the old capital, williamsburg, but the clearest absolute recollection i have was when we were both serving in the house of burgesses. Thomas, you began serving in the late sixties . Bill i first took my seat in that ancient body in the spring of 1769. But i must tell you, your excellency, you were already a legend within my family when i was a young boy. My father, colonel Peter Jefferson, spoke very highly of you. He, as you well know, was a surveyor, commissioned by the royal authority. Surveying far the western lands of virginia and beyond. He knew you well when you were a young major. And i believe you both sat together in the Virginia House of burgesses, just before he passed away. He passed away in 1757. When i came to the house of burgesses 12 years later, i had already known of you. I attended the college in williamsburg, william and mary, reading law with george and practicing law in williamsburg. In fact, general, i do not know whether you remember, but when i was a young man of 25 years of age, i had already become a devotee of theater. And i never missed an opportunity when the Virginia Company would be performing in williamsburg at that old theater across from campbells. In fact, i believe mrs. Campbells was quite the destiny for you. You enjoyed her fine seafood. There, the two of us, if i remember well, attended a production of the Virginia Company. I was only about, oh, i would venture 25 years of age. It was in the spring of 68. And i remembered that you are quite a devotee of the theater. Dean i am. And i did attend theater in the old capital. I must confess to you that at this age i do not actually remember meeting you at one of those nights, but it is possible. Bill i was hardly dry behind ears inehind the those early years, general. Dean like i said, you are younger than myself. [laughter] speaking of the Virginia House of burgesses, we were both members in the years leading up to the American Revolution, what were some of the issues that arose and how did they lead to americas break with england . Dean if you will allow me, i shall begin and then let you convey the substance of it. You are correct, we both did serve in the house of burgesses, although i started in 1756, a few years earlier. If you will allow an old man to recollect, because when once hair turns white that is what one does. I remember a story that was related by colonel mason to mrs. Washington. It was pretty much my first attendance at the house of burgesses. I was home from the french indian war and i entered the hall, we called it the hall. At the house of burgesses where we all met. All the members rose and gave me standing acclaim according to colonel mason. I was expected to return that acclaim by making a speech. Forgive me, but colonel mason told mrs. Washington that i blushed red like a virgin and was completely tongue tied. It was at that point that the old speaker, robinson, hit his staff on the floor and said, you may sit down, colonel washington, for it is obvious to all that your modesty is equal to your bravery. That said, i would tell you that i was not particularly innovative or a routine speaker at the Virginia House of burgesses. I sat with younger burgesses, mr. Nel mason, mr. Henry, jefferson as well. And of course, many wiser members of the burgesses, speaker robinson, mr. Randolph. In the years leading up to the war for independence, the Virginia House of burgesses was very entrenched in that struggle. In the 1760s, the house asserted it had the Sole Authority to tax virginians. In may of 1774, close to the outbreak of the war itself, at the last session of the house, you mentioned it before, mr. Jefferson, i remember that we called for fasting, humiliation, and prayer. This was in support of what was happening at that time. The boston citizenry was subjected to acts of strong discipline. It was at that point, and this is what you referenced, that governor dunmore promptly dissolved the Virginia House of burgesses. And we just met the next day at the tavern. We signed a number of documents and continued to support the war, but truth be told, the Virginia House of burgesses never truly meets in full again. You might want to add to this, mr. Jefferson. Bill well, i remember vividly, that yars t those years youre speaking of, once i took my seat in the house of burgesses. There was one concern that followed immediately after the next, and i certainly do recall when we heard about the closure of the port of boston, a retaliation by the crown because of the socalled tea party. That was held in boston harbor. And i was thought the only creatures to have enjoyed a tea party in boston were the fishes in boston harbour. Remember, that was a riot and destruction of private property. However, with just cause. And when we learned of the atrocious method by which the crown would close down the entire port to punish all of the inhabitants of massachusetts bay, we would not let it pass in virginia. You are absolutely right that we cooked up, as i have written, a resolution for a day of fasting, humiliation, and prayer. Dean which i was not very happy with at all. Bill and if i remember, general, if i remember, the evening before, governor dunmore, who road to the old who rode to the old capital williamsburg, he was there to dissolve us as was the royal prerogative. If i am correct in recalling, did you not have a repast to share a meal with governor dumore at the old royal palace . Dean you are correct. I did, and i was hoping to defuse his response. But to no avail. Bill it was to no effect and you were present, i remember distinctly, in the old raleigh tavern when our good friend, my cousin, the late peyton randolph, who was speaker at the house of burgesses at the time, decided we ought to get it gatherther to together, virginia and massachusetts, 600 miles distance and to be accompanied by our sister colonies. Not in virginia as a virginian would want to, nor farther north than massachusetts as one there would desire, but midway between the northern and southern colonies. To meet you in philadelphia. Now, general, i wish i had been there at that First Congress, september, 1774, but i fell ill and was not able to go. But you were there, the very First Congress of all of the colonies. I always envied that about your history, along with so many other things that have continued to remain an inspiration for me. Dean you know, if you remember, thomas, it was only months earlier that all of us in virginia believing that these things could happen in new england, and massachusetts bay, they could happen anywhere. It was just months earlier, the governor confiscated all the black powder and weaponry and magazine in colonial williamsburg. Bill general, general, if you will, i beg your pardon, you know i do that frequently. Im having a difficulty being able to hear you. Might you speak just a tad louder . Dean i shall. I shall. I was saying that it was just months earlier that the governor had confiscated the black powder and the weaponry from the magazine at williamsburg. I found myself in philadelphia in september of 1774. And what a remarkable assemblage that was. Because it is important that everyone remember that it is a miracle that anything actually happened. Because we were absolute strangers to each other. At the time of that very first meeting, we had 13 different armies. We had 13 different currencies. 13 different economies. I think nine of the colonies had standing navies. We were absolute strangers to each other with different customs. So it was absolutely remarkable. But to the original question, the Virginia House of burgesses was very fully engaged in the struggle that led to the war for american independence. Bill so much so, general, lest we forget that the next year when i did have that opportunity to finally attend the congress in philadelphia that spring and summer of 1775, that virginia rose further to the forefront in calling for an american army. Remember, we had heard nothing from england as we showed our respect with an Olive Branch Petition in order to seek a reconciliation, and as well, having formed an army to send them, if you will, the necessity that weng up arms realized that necessity could be in no one elses hands, but yours, general. I will never forget. I will never forget that spring and summer of 1775 when we brought all of those militia together to form an american army, and who else to lead us . Who else to receive the First Commission as a general . Oh, neither of us will even er forget that if you were born in the counties of britain, you could never rise to the rank of general in the british army. Only colonel of a militia. As i said, no one else could but general, have fulfilled that commission but yourself. Dean thomas, when i was commissioned by the congress, yourself included, i was scared to death. I had led a regiment, i had never led an army. I remember sitting in my boarding rooms when i was not involved with meetings from the congress. I was reading everything i could on strategy. I understood tactics fairly well, but certainly not strategy. But i remember standing up. I could not even walk to the dais, if you recall. I stood up in front of my chair and i accepted the commission. And when i sat down, everyone in that room knew that our world, perhaps the world, would never be the same again. Bill yes. Youve always been honest, general. Youve always been distinct and direct upon your feelings, at least with me. And how well we both know that courage and valor can only be supported by one questioning themselves and a better and better understanding the risk that they take, but that the risk is so worthy for the greater good. Dean madam, have you another question . Yes. General washington, mr. Jefferson, we know you served in the cabinet together , the very first cabinet. What are some of your thoughts about some of the strong differences of opinion amongst the cabinet members in the first cabinet . Dean i think they referred to it as internal dissensions tearing us apart. But it was not always such the case. You know, i selected my cabinet members based on their ability to Carry Forward the establishment of the major departments that they were responsible for. Mr. Jefferson, as my secretary of state, he was a man of letters and a man of education. Forgive me if i embarrass you, thomas. He had already joined john adams and dr. Benjamin franklin in paris in 1784 to negotiate commercial treaties with european powers. The following year, i believe it was 1785. He succeeded dr. Franklin. Bill youre quite right quite correct, general. He took a leave of paris to return to our country and happily to be there as soon as soon was convened the Constitutional Convention over which you, sir, and none other, in my opinion, served as the president. Kind, but i didnt stop watching your accomplishments, sir. While he was minister of france, he negotiated a commercial treaty with prussia, and a Consular Convention with france. This is a man who had diplomatic ability, so it was appropriate to pick mr. Jefferson as my secretary of foreign affairs, what you might refer to as the secretary of state. And in the beginning, colonel hamilton and jefferson agreed. They were actually friends, if you can imagine. But things began to bifurcated betwixt thely federalists and the anti federalists. Now by way of explanation in the broadest terms, federalists supported ratification of the constitution, a strong, Central Government tied to commercial interests. I dont think it is an oversimplification to say that anti federalists distrusted centralized power. They favored strong states rights. And an agrarian economy. So, this is where the problems arose, and the internal conflict within my cabinet. Because, to their opponents, the federalists were really monarchists whose affection for Great Britain would set aside, would lose any gains we had made in our war for american independence. And, to the opponents of the anti federalists, they were considered radical democrats, and their zeal for the kingdom of france would have the same results turning us away from our positive outcome for american independence. So this did not bode well for america. Im sure you have your own perspective on it, thomas. But it is challenging to find areas, looking back, in which mr. Jefferson and colonel hamilton were in complete agreement, but they did exist. They both agreed on an educated and informed citizenry, and they agreed on a national currency. They agreed on the establishment of the Revenue Cutter Service to guard our coast. And a few other things as well. Beg youreral, i pardon, hamilton referred to the necessity of a coast guard as the necessity for revenue cutters. I referred to it as the necessity for militia boats to protect and defend our coastline. But with all due respect, your excellency, you are absolutely correct. At the very beginning, and you referred to him as colonel, if you remember, he preferred general. But hamilton and i did agree and we worked together to agree and advise and consult with you, as you placed your trust in us, to be seated in your cabinet. And yes, what you are correct that whether you refer to it as federalist or whether you have referred to others as anti federalist, we did believe in the necessity of the Central Government, that the Central Government would be supported by the concerns of the individual states, and the purpose of the federal government was to protect and defend all of the states collectively. E pluribus unum. Now, i am not going to deny, there was a concern of some of us that perhaps was growing in the federal government, a faction more interested in their close ties to the counting houses, more interested in considering the success of british mercantilism to be our own proper inheritance, and would rather have placed commerce at the forefront rather than agriculture. If you will, elements of stock jobbing, speculation, as was beginning to occur under the buttonwood tree on wall street where the first government was seated. And yes, im not going to deny that was the antithesis of what we desired in our revolution. That we desired, if you will, to create a government of, by, and for the people. Not to create another monarchy or aristocracy, or landed gentry. And these are the conflicts that began to grow within your cabinet and i was certainly aware of it, general, you know that, you know we certainly aware that you with all of your patience and perseverance which had been exemplified that it could never be exemplified by any other in the pursuit of our victory of American Revolution was the greatest example of virtue. And you did not want to stand for a second term, general. And that is why i came to visit you, if you will recall. Dean i do recall quite well. I am struck by your restating of the bifurcation that i spoke of , and if this elder statesman can just suggest that the reality is that we needed the balance right in between. You had said E Pluribus Unum. Out of many, one. That is absolutely appropriate and it is that balance that brings us to that. You know, i have seen firsthand independency the great bane of too strong a Central Government. A monarchy, you cannot get any stronger than that, and i had also seen the great problems involved in states that had too much in the way of rights, because we could not get funded for our war. We were in want of everything and we relied on the states to provide those funds. And that was very problematic. But in the middle, there is balance. You spoke of too strong a Central Government. Weak a centralo government, or too strong a state government. What you also just elucidated was the fact that there was a conflict between bankers and manufacturers and the agrarian society. And here again, we need all of it, we need all of it, all sites both sides to co