Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Civil War Interpreting Appomattox

CSPAN3 The Civil War Interpreting Appomattox July 12, 2024

Science and engineering that i realized what i really loved was history, and i was bored in class one day because i forgot my book, which is the downfall of every nerd the, the day you forget your book, and i happened to be in sociology class, and the teacher also taught a civil war class. I started reading, and i thought it was the most fascinating people i read about. What fascinated me, looking at these people dealing with the most claddagh close make moments of their lives the most cataclysmic moments of their lives and the nations life and figuring out how to deal with the situation, far enough to be strange, yet close enough to be familiar at the same time. You get your chance to go to fredericksburg, now as a permanent historian. Could you tell us a little bit about some of the things that you did there . Im not saying in terms of accomplishments, but i think our audience is interested what does it mean to be a part interpreter historian at a place like fredericksburg . It means a lot more paperwork than people expect. We are the federal government so we do a lot of that. On the fun side of things, it involves managing volunteers, getting to work alongside passionate volunteers, helping visitors figure out where they want to go and how they want to spend their day. Programs, because that allows for research and digging into these stories. From 2011 until 2019, which means i was there for the thick of it, their 150th anniversary commemoration. Also, the National Park service centennial. A sevenhour battlefield hike at spotsylvania. Its anywhere from short 30minute programs with visitors to all day hikes. Your favorite tour that you like and why . Favorite tour of all time . Im not talking about specific date. Im talking about, if i have to go to a tour, youve got four battlefields at fredericksburg and spotsylvania. You have the jackson shine, which has been renamed to Something Else. You are asking me to choose among my favorite children. Youve got to. We all do, at least at times in my own household. I wont ask about that. Isfavorite topic spotsylvania. My favorite tour is fredericksburg. You can have a little more discussion, which makes things interesting. The story of fredericksburg is one that is for most visitors, it feeds their cynicism, their cynicism that the northern war effort was over from the beginning, that these men died in vain, and finally ,hat the battlefield itself its almost entirely gone to development. Some people are disappointed because it doesnt look like a battlefield, and the story itself is one that is lifeaffirming. How do you deal with visitors who walk away from fredericksburg and say, this battle is further evidence of a northern war effort that was horribly misguided and resulted in the needless slaughter of men . Thats an awful lot to come up against, pete. Were notour visitors that knowledgeable about fredericksburg. Most of them did not come in and think on that nuanced a level, but most of them did know and might become a little bit of a trope from an interpreter, but usually you start to break down these barriers. Once you can find that little bit of level ground with people, ok, what does everybody know about Ambrose Burnside . Theres always that one person in the crowd who is too shy to say anything and starts rubbing their face, and they say, thats right. Hes best known for his sideburns. That probably doesnt mean he was a great general, does it . From there, you can say, here was burnsides career before fredericksburg. Heres what he was thinking about during fredericksburg. Once you really start to bring in all of these factors, people start to see it more from in that case Ambrose Burnsides point of view, and once you level things out, people get more into a learning mode. For me, it was asking a lot of questions that they could dig into, as well. It is giving people enough information and asking people, what do you think . The last question i ask everybody is, the battle is over, complete union disaster. Ambrose burnside looks terrible. Signedabraham lincoln the emancipation proclamation . That shifted attention away from, remember there is a larger war. Here. S more to talk about that will get people to think in a broader term, so they cant just walk away dismissive of the battle or dismissive of burnside the warthey realize continues, even if it seems like this is a complete disaster. There are still pieces to be drawn from this. How did you handle the beautiful monument dedicated to , a monumentland that i believe was dedicated was it dedicated in 1962 . Yeah, around the centennial. Would you mind very briefly telling our audience the story take onrkland and your of this story and how you handle that monument. For those of you who havent been, it is right on the stone wall, and below the stone wall is where the Union Soldiers attacked. Kirkland is a pretty fascinating story in that, as the story comes to us, the short version being, in the aftermath of the battle of fredericksburg, there are untold Union Soldiers in front of the town, and behind the stone wall, you have kirkland listening to the cries of the wounded and asks his Commanding Officer if he can take water, other things out to the wounded, and he finally gets permission to go across, although he has refused to bring a white flag. He starts giving water to the wounded soldiers. There is now a monument to kirkland that is beautiful. Monument. Y remarkable there are some challenges. We cant ask him if this happens. His story surfaces years later. Theres not much corroborating evidence. There was aid given by a confederate or more than one confederate to Union Soldiers out in the field, but we dont know for certain it is kirkland. It can be a little bit problematic. Centennial is an era of good feelings, trying to encourage brotherhood between the two sides and play up that memory of, we were all soldiers. It was ok in the end. Confess some days i wasnt feeling kirkland at all. We just didnt make it that far. Say, there there and are more important things to talk about. It seems like the perfect centerpiece ending. We are going to talk about how humanity can transcend the battlefield, that when you are talking about a battlefield where a person could go from one end to the other without touching a blade of grass, humanity may not be the thing you want to talk about. Say, its up to you what you want to believe. See kirkland as someone who is representative. Its not for me to tell you what to make of this monument, but one people to think about that monument and all monuments. All monuments tell us the story. They tell us the story of what people wanted. Its not necessarily the stories you think from looking at it. I cut my teeth as an interpreter at fredericksburg when i was in college and gave many a walk along the sunken road, and i incorporated that story without challenging the visitors to think about it. To, that monument of kirkland cradling a Union Soldier is the kind of feelgood story, bedtime story that americans want. You are going to hear it here first. When i retire, im going to fredericksburg, right back home. Im going to volunteer. Ive got to make amends. Pointing to end by the monument and yell, bedtime story. That is what people want. That monument is important, and its beautiful, and it speaks to how we want to imagine and see our civil war. I am reminded of gods and generals, a route that is filled of absurdities, but one of the most ridiculous moments is the confederate irish soldier crying as he is shooting down members of the irish brigade. Quotationse some that have confederates feeling badly or expressing that they feel badly for shooting brave men, but i dont think it stops them, which i think is an important thing to note. There are some people who are like, we will kill every yankee you put in front of us. There was a north carolinian who said the, set them up again like they are bowling pins. They were infuriated by what the yankees did to the town of fredericksburg. Its a war. I think it has changed in the last 1520 years. We have a lot to talk about in terms of appomattox. The interpretation is there. This is all about pete tonight. You laid the groundwork. This is what they do. Bookt see a copy of my behind you on your shelves. Its over here. Buried. Its top shelf. My top shelf is really a middle shelf, but it is literally top shelf. Youve made amends. Josh, do you want to take it over . Give a shoutant to out. I have a beaker background. Thank you for adding that class to our discussion before we went live. Absolutely. How was your transition for interpretation . How did that transition work for you personally . It was very interesting. Fredericksburg, chancellor ville, spotsylvania, it spans through midmay of 1864, and you would tend to think, especially for those in appomattox, you war, think if you had the you can go logically to april of 1865. The armies are barely recognizable. There was a big shift in terms of understanding the army, and i think a big shift from battlefield interpretation culture to add appomattox, we preserve it reconstructed. Some parts historical, some parts reconstructed. We are talking about the site of we surrender. Theres fighting on april 9. Theres a whole campaign to get there. A differenty much kind of story. People come to hear about the than they come to hear the military story, although they are interested in that, as well. Theyre interested in terms of where we are at in the war and in terms of subject matter. Where ingrained is that we were just talking about, the ideaand monument, and this of how we have perceived the civil war in the past . Appomattox, and you think it would be the same kind of mythology hanging out in a different capacity. Is that true . Theres a lot of it. As you drive into appomattox county, the sign says, we are the nation reunited. We are always like, not really. Ie of the first disagreements ever had, which was in a group was, this is what my dad grew up with. He had these illustrations. They are fantastic, right . If you read it, you are going to come away with a different impression of appomattox than what we would want you to walk away with today. The focus is very much on. Ivility, about how the consummate gentleman lee is reflected in his clothing while grant shows up in his mudspattered boots, and that is supposed to tell you something about the character of each of them. Its a story that generally ends sril 9 or april 10 with lee dramatic farewell address, all of these things that build for the lost cause. We look at april 9 as the beginning of the end, the beginning toward reconstruction, the beginning of emancipation, the beginning of the Confederate Army surrender. Its a turning point rather than the end. It shows some shifting mindsets. If you ask appomattox citizens around the turnofthecentury, and somebody did in an effort to establish parks and memorials, the southern people here were quick to remind werybody that in fact werent so keen on remembering it that way, thank you very much. A lot of things were lost that day. The nationee it as, is coming back together, but we also try to see more of the. Omplications you mentioned this issue of emancipation, which didnt begin this process. Correct, it is often itceived by people that ended. They see this as part of an ongoing story. Here we go. There is a challenge here, though. Theres a challenge at all of these Historic Sites to bring in the africanamerican story. Tell us how it is a problem on many levels. Its a problem in terms of visitors. There are no problems in this world, john. Tell us about the challenges of the interpretation of africanamerican history. I much prefer the word challenge because i think we should see it more as an opportunity to fix something we havent done well in the past, and i think it starts if you go back to the founding of these parks. Appomattox is founded in the 19 30s and 1940s. It is a segregated park. We are building on this foundation that has its roots in segregation and white supremacy. There is our first problem. Straight out of the gate, weve got a problem. You mentioned a couple other things. We have a scarcity of sources. One of the lovely things about being a community as opposed to a devastated battlefield where there are so many people who lived in the area who ran away. Emancipation, which is a process i shouldnt say it begins in appomattox, but then appomattox, the enslaved people didnt have much chance to have success. Grants arrival really sparked the movement in this area. We have things to work with. We have some wta narratives. We have sources. Know the movement of an individual unit at the appomattox courthouse, we probably have a dozen records. Knowingtill working on the exact number of enslaved people who belonged to any given slaveholder in appomattox at any given time. Theres a lot we dont know, but there is a lot that we can know and build on. A lot of us are shifting that culture to focus less on what more,ls were wearing and why does this matter . I will just say that the is truly approach revolutionary. I told you it was going to be about me. From the summer of 1985, my first job in the park service was to portray Corporal Bobby fields, who i believe is portrayed at appomattox. Do a first person interpretation. I had to pretend it was the. Ummer of 1865 theres an abundance of records that mark green now, who is the chair of the Virginia State capitol museum, he did just incredible research. Im 19 years old. I didnt have the historiography, and i had to pretend it was 1865. Material, they complained bitterly about freed people that they would not work. Here is a problem of first person interpretation. Historians like myself didnt know the historiography. I dont know what i could have done had i known that. Was 1865. Retend it ared visitors that said, we struggling to get black people to work here. The reason why the Freedmens Bureau wrote that was because they wanted to not work on the terms of their former land owners, and those terms were coercive, and they were terms that wouldve have led to their impoverishment. What brianack to spoke about on thursday. They wanted to play the freemarket game, but those who owned the capital didnt want to play by those rules. It is too bad that when i was i had some good people to work with, but they were centered in that 1960s perception or interpretation. I have two students i can think of off the top of my head who worked at appomattox. Programs told me about in which the story of africanamericans was not just on the margins of their interpretation, but right in the wheelhouse. For people who say, these things dont change, that is not the case at all. I think it is number two it for us to make them more centered. Weve beeneek, talking about telling these stories, and my hope is that some of your students are telling the story of john does a lot too me embody the story of reconstruction. Village, thehe home he purchased after the war. He helped found the first africanamerican church. He registered to vote right off the bat. You can use a story like john robinson, even though there was very little he said himself, we can construct around that. He knew what it took to register to vote. The first africanamerican school was built across from the mclean house. Park,ight within the right within the area we talk about. That school was threatened by the clan. Opportunities, and there are some things that can go terribly wrong. What kind of peace was brought . Tos a powerful response anyone who comes to appomattox and that this lossoflife didnt result in any profound consequences. You just pointed out robinson got to vote. What you have pointed out is pretty powerful. What is one of the greater challenges to deal with appomattox . Is it this idea of how it ended . Is it how once in a while you have visitors who believe the way we saw that in the 1960s when lost because initiatives were in textbooks all over the country . Is that some of the harder challenges you face, or is it Something Else . Some of it is trying to get our visitors to stay longer and let them know there is more to see than just the mclean house. Visitors come to appomattox, one of the lovely things about being here in the middle of nowhere is people come to appomattox because they mean to. It means something to them. A lot of our visitors come because they find deep meaning here. Part of what i love is they find a peaceful atmosphere, and they find that it reflects what they think happened. Part of it is complicating it. There was a whole campaign to get here. Some people dont think about robert ely backed into a corner. He doesnt wake up and say, its time for this war to be over. Level of, we need thexpand the story of surrender. Lets understand what they mean and what the implications are for soldiers and the nation at large. There are also little bits throughout those farewell orders or farewell order that says a lot about what many come to. Elieve we are often coming up against all of these ideas, these preconceived notions about appomattox and what it means. Some of it is telling the story. Some of it is helping people understand that this is in some ways a beginning or turning point. Its not the end. I think you said that so nicely. Know you werent at appomattox during the 150th, but what appomattox did is something john and i have talked about on numerous occasions. We devoted an entire show to the relationship between historians and academic historians. I both believe that for the most part, we are truly allies. We are partners in this enterprise. The 150th at appomattox revealed that. Im especially interested in the your predecessor, i believe, was a big part of this how you were able to connect to the Africanamerican Community at appomattox. I have immense respect for did a lot of the background work that is required. Is a fairh there amount of africanamericans who left appomattox county after the war, their wages being a big is stillhy, but there a vibrant Africanamerican Community here. Because we started out as a segregated a park, because there were interpretations related to the lost cause for some time, the park has not historically been a place the Africanamerican Community felt welcome in. Bernie started the outreach to them. Out to alot to reach local Museum Talking about civil rights, deeply involved with the Africanamerican Community. That johno the Church Robinson helped found in appomattox and started working with the local Africanamerican Community. Theres a prominent pastor in the community who

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