Before asking her the first question, i want to mention that this appears in this kind of conventional version of a hard copy it also has two other versions. Part of what makes her work so interesting is that it makes it possible to it is available as a conventional verbatim open access ebook and also as an enhanced open access ebook which shows off what dr. Turner was able to do with mapping and Digital Technology in order to develop her research findings. One of the things i hope we will get to talk about today is how she worked with those sources and what kind of comments she thinks digital humanities holds in this research into africanamerican history in particular. Dr. Turner,t off tell us about this book. Dr. Turner thank you so much for having me. The book is about the evolution of black women and politics. The main goal of the book is to his store if i black churches. Commons a very understanding of black churches as already politically engaged. The aim of my work was to narrate that process. It wasnt always engaged in the same ways. The black churches are in fact historical spaces that have changed across time and force changes across the reconstructions of that was the main aim of the book. Thank you so much. We will be bouncing back and forth. I dont mean to catch you from two different sides. The bookighted to read and its very exciting and i have about 9 million questions some going to ask them all at once. No, im kidding. Im going to try to portion them out and be patient for all of the things that i want to ask later. I am holding off of what you just said. I wonder if you can help us understand what do you mean by liberty . Y soul it seems to speak to some of these intersections that you are so interested in and religion and politics and how they are shaping each other. I wonder if you could get that get us started on what that means in your work. Dr. Turner soul liberty comes from a quote where the members of the convention were reciting pursuit of soul liberty in the formation of her violent. The term is not only a term that applies to the black baptists, it also applies to black episcopalians and black Members Church that started in southern virginia and north carolina. The term soul liberty refers to an idea of liberty ash religious freedom. Worship when,n where, and with whom they chose. It points to an idea of equity and justice and righteousness that they were also pursuing in the religious communities but also as a broader public landscape. [indiscernible] two members of the zion church. One of the few original black denominations that were started in the south. All pursuing the idea of being able to worship as they saw fit and the ideas of freedom, equity, and justice. Your answer captures many of the fascinating aspects of it. One of which that particularly struck me and in the text and in your own notes, is that the pursuit of liberty is at first glance might read as liberty to worship separate from white interference which is part of the story. Also, liberty that allows for different types of formation of the free people of the religious world. The ways thatt the baptist and ame church stood so centrally in the literature which makes sense. Experiences,igious the physical billions whom you mentioned or the africanamerican members seemed to be harder to pin down in the literature. What is it you think we gain when we study people who choose to operate in what seems like almost a completely africanamerican space, but to remain within a white dominated denomination . As a historian that drew you to the spaces as well . I hear dr. Turner i hear a couple of things in your question. One has to do with liberty and the other in denominations. Landscape comes from doing a geographical look, a study that begins in a particular place in virginia. Not seeking the lens of a particular denomination. I didnt come it only through the lens of baptist but also through the landscape of virginia which yielded up all three of those different denominations. How eachto think about of these religious communities chose to pursue freedom, it becomes very evident that for the baptist, that part of the trajectory of their struggle goes through a beginning where black baptists are organized before in conventions the vote is established by the 15th amendment. They are already making arguments for their political even before emancipation there were black people organizing associations so they have demonstrated the skill and ability to participate as citizens through their own religious communities. An interesting story of a church in petersburg, virginia which was started by a black woman who in convocation with a white priest from the church that her family became members of establishes an independent black church, one of the first black will churches for the community in petersburg. It is an interesting story because i think a lot of people tend to associate the Episcopal Church with a high church coat culture not a formerly enslaved free black community. They certainly dont associate it with black womens leadership. In this instance, you have black people like Caroline Bragg who helped established the church and her grandson who becomes involved in the movement, another thing that drew me to the virginia landscape. Bragg becomes involved in the movement and becomes a critical agent in narrating black history. And reflects how the struggle for black freedom took place in many spaces. Whether it was black baptists who were establishing their own independence or with black episcopalians who were constantly navigating the landscape of engaging with former confederates as george bragg did as a student, as of participant in the movement. It really opens up thinking about how to black people go about forming this type of alliance . How did they form this alliance . One of the things that becomes is finding evident ways to achieve the freedom in these vocations. Thank you so much. The vast majority of your book takes place in the postcivil war time. I wanted to have you talked a little bit about the transition from slavery to freedom. You are talking about an area in virginia where the vast majority of africanamericans before the civil war were enslaved although there were some free black people as well. How would you describe for readers what that transition look like . What were the aspects of black religious experiences during the time of slavery that informed what people did after emancipation . What were the particular challenges that people faced as slavery came to an end during the civil war and how do you understand and see that transition . Dr. Turner thank you. The transition can be seen by thinking in part about the longstanding narrative of black Church Engagement and thinking about how it is that in the antebellum time, there were independent black churches where black people were able to worship. Independent churches. They were able to develop leadership skills. One of the things we start to see happen in the post emancipation landscape is arguments about Land Ownership and property. There is an interesting aspect of thinking about black Land Ownership is that it came first through churches and the black people were going to navigate the legal system through trying to secure ownership by title of dutch and formal ownership of that they paid into it but they didnt have the right of full ownership on the deed. Part of that involve the transition to full ownership. It has to do a little bit with gender roles. One of the things i wanted to highlight in this moment was how gender roles were being established in Church Communities. Part of what you can see for what i tried to convey by telling the story of the Baptist Church in petersburg is listen closely to the landscape of just the meetings in the churches was how gender roles were being transformed in that moment. On in the things i focus looking at the cases of unwed meetingy which, this handled lots of different issues, but i focused on the case of unwed pregnancy because there are clear transformations in how the community initially didnt hold both parties accountable for one of them being pregnant outside of wedlock. They allowed at one time for both parties to be held accountable. Then the shift back to going back to just the woman being held accountable. Part of what happens as a result is that women move back into the space of only being disciplined in the church meetings. You also start to see the rise of a centralized figure who is male and who has a gender status. There are ways in which the leadership roles change and access to land and property is something that how gender also roles are being transformed on the landscape. Followup on that question about gender roles, you at areference to the work that time of an argument gender roles among africanamericans in churches conventional ideas about male leadership and women being part of the church but not being in leadership roles or conventional ideas about gender respectability. That emerged later in the 1890s. Do you see that what you are finding is suggesting that all of the things the things that people said came about later actually happened earlier . Questiont raises a which is interesting and repeated which is that historian suggests the immediate post emancipation. It was a time of experimentation among gender hierarchy among africanamericans that there was more fluidly fluidity and contestation because so many families and marriages had been interrupted by the domestic slave trade and now you have a moment of more flexibility. Are you finding Something Different from that here . Yes, when you look at the petersburg landscape, you see the gender roles taking place much earlier. The question is not only one of time but also circumstance. Its also particular leadership model. One of the things i talked about in the study and acknowledge that this is a deep look at a particular community. We need many more studies and locations in order to make a larger picture of these transformations and how they emerge. In this particular case, its a challenge to think about how gender roles could be transformed much earlier and in this particular instance, a Church Revealed what was taking place on the ground in this community was very disruptive. Different experience of how gender was being transformed during that time. One of the places that we see and is in the conventions conferences and other organizational networking levels. We will come back to this and a little bit when we turn to mapping. Yourng on the level of argument, i want to say first i think one of the joys in reading this book and other books of history that have this deep regularity is seeing a historian take something that on its face, a lot of historians rush past because it doesnt seem that interesting. People dont get that congregations are interesting. Conventions,nd its more like whos and to explain why not only that is meaningful because it was meaningful to them but also interesting. I think its one of the magical moments of the book. We take this thing that would all feel the impulse to be like how do i get to the good stuff and satan this really is the good stuff if we see it the good stuff and see this is really the good stuff. Back to the question about , how these spaces become [indiscernible] learn from those, why do you think those spaces matter . You to it . Did you know all along that that was going to be a telling part or did it develop over the course of your study . Dr. Turner thank you so much. Its funny because i do remember people cautioning me about publishing. One that there would not be a lot of information about churches in the record was not complete and that conventioneers would be up boring. Encouragedthat i was when someone reproduced the schedule of the convention and i was like wow that was really instructive that i really had no insight. I knew it was something you could do with those minutes beyond the board by them. Bored by them. The Convention Minutes are a treasure trove of information about black religious and political life. Preserved on microfilm. Some of them have 30 year runs of their Convention Minutes the Virginia Baptist Convention every year, you can find an annual convention. Its robust. Not only in that one segment of the state. Its a shoot archive if you arek about it its huge five archive. Theres really a lot here to see. Of ano came out investment of using the archive of black peoples lives. Use it in the most robust way possible. It was important to me to leave those sources and get everything i could from them. You cant help but be struck by what is included in that. The names of all of the delegates who attended. The locations of all of the churches that are there. The different issues that they are discussing and recording in the minutes. Their financial records. They are readily rich. Thought it was important to use. As im reading through them, i womenicing there are no initially on the boards of these conventions. But they show up. They show up in these accounts were they are acknowledged these donations to the conventions. The donation of a golden coin. Then you see it happen again and again. Its like whats going on here that women are showing up in particular ways. One of the ways we first see women as members is as donors. [indiscernible] theres another aspect of the store that i wanted to tell. Work to point to ways that women played a role in the construction of black baptist conventions and blackness and social activism. Back andke a look think about what manhood. That is also a construction that is happening in this space. To get at it through the Convention Minutes and the Church Records that is something that is taking place also. That was a good segue into a question i wanted to followup on. Claims youcentral said at the beginning of your book is, at the beginning of the talk is it has to do with the relationship between black church organizing and politics in the formal politics since the sense of voting Party Politics. You talking about being interested in investigating what you can tell about the construction of black manhood through these Church Records leads me to the relationship between those developments within churches and whats going on in formal politics where in 1867, black and are enfranchised and they begin to vote. White people begin to play a different role in Party Politics coming republicans and eventually readjusters. Impact of explain the the entry of africanamerican men and the politics of voting and being part of poly politics, the relationship between that and the development of churches . Dr. Turner a couple of things. One has to do with what i think was playing out in the background in the field. Dealing withrches these issues of unwed pregnancy and at the same time almost that black men the right to vote at the same time that the minister of the church is actually running for office and other members of the church are running for office or holding office. These things are happening concurrently. Im not saying that its a one to one that the church made the decisions it did about women because of that Political Landscape. It definitely is a consideration. Assessmentt that because as you look at the long trajectory of how the people in the church thought about themselves, and their role in society and how they were being viewed, it has implications it suggests they were thinking about how the church and the members are being perceived as lockman are gaining the right to vote. The other thing i think happens in terms of shaping and voicing Political Engagement has to do with both the way that black people were organizing in their conventions the way they understood themselves as already politically savvy and politically skilled. Having committees and Holding President ial elections and doing all the work of political participation. To suggest the work that they should not be able to hold office at the highest level would rancor anybody. Then be told you cant [indiscernible] thats part of the way they were influenced to Political Action because they already had the skills. Andso think the association the way that they helped perform Community Across county lines, across the lines of cities the way they brought people into contact with one another formed a foundation for people to think about themselves as a collective. As a collective with the power to influence political outcomes. I was initially brought into thinking about virginia because of the adjuster movement. The questiontudy of religious and power and reconstruction. Thisahone papers are amazing huge collection of records. He didone record where up canvas of black churches. To think about the role of black churches in this movement. Its really interesting to me that mahone is like let me figure out where these churches are and who they are and how he might be able to mobilize to his own political ends. I discovered he is late to the game. They already have this record. They know who they are and how many they are and where they are. Mahone acknowledges that by trying to gather the information but the churches already know. They already know who their people are. Thats another way they become his political agents is forming up consciousness of gaining political power through these networks. Can we ask you, with conventions, theres a series of moments in the book where we get these magnificent takes on important and often separated in the literature moments and a key aspect of that is that you begin in slavery and you go deep into the late 19th century and you have a lot to say about this incredibly volatile and interesting time in virginia politics. The mind giving an overview and then i will follow up on the many things that your book has to say about how we can better understand that moment . Level thatappened helps us understand mahone and the John Mercer Langston intervention. Dr. Turner the readjust her movement, it was virginias reconstruction. It was the moment where a coalition of lack and white were able politicians to gain control of the state legislature and of the state patronage to affect the changes of allowing black people to sit on juries. Of establishing schools for black people like Virginia State university. They carried out the work of adding the whipping post. It is often told th