2013. Ian buruma, professor of human rights and journalism at bard college, was educated in holland and japan. Hes won several awards for his work, among them the international prize, and the short and steam journalism award. The publication he writes for and include the new york review of books, new yorker new york times, the guardian. Which, the guardian, recently published his highly learned it and entertaining review of the British Museums current exhibition, sex and pleasure in japanese art. Among the previous books our religion and democracy on three continents, murder in amsterdam liberal europe islam in the limits of tolerance, and inventing japan, 1863 to 1964. In the year, zero the history of 1945, most of which he wrote while he was a fellow at the comment center, in 2011 and 2012. To the serious envy of his fellow fellow, start he was so productive. He has produced a brilliant portrayal of the world emerging from the devastation and unspeakable horrors of world war ii, in europe and asia. Skeptical about the idea that we can learn much from history, he nonetheless wanted to know, he writes, what those who lived through war in the end including his own father went through. To help make sense of myself, and indeed all are lives in the dorm long dark shadow of what came before. The wall street call year zero remarkable. Its a combination of magnificence and modesty. And the Financial Times describes it as elegant, humane, luminous. Martin amis who was honored last fall as a New York Public Library lion, and has published more than 25 books including a several collections of stories in many novels. Among them money, london feels, time arrow, and most recently the state of england. Amis received a price for has more experience, and was claimed one of the 50 betas greatest british writers since 1945, by the london times and 2008. 1945 seems to be a scene here, tonight. We are extremely fortunate to be able to listen in on a conversation between these two extraordinarily gifted writers, who are also friends. They will talk for about 45 minutes, and take a few questions from the audience. There are mics towards the front, on both sides, so please come up to the right mike rather than try to speak from your chair. And then, they will sign books. So when they are finished you can please let them get out to the table out there, to sign. Please welcome ian buruma and martin amis. [applause] well the first thing to be said, ian, this is a tremendous book. Its an amazing task of organizing a great deal of kaleidoscopic material. The war, the aftermath of the war, is a term and by the war itself. It is shaped by the years that preceded it. And ive been spending recent years writing about this war. And wondering about it. And it was, apart from being uniquely devastating in the 55 million dead and many ruin city, and all the devastation we know of, it looks increasingly weird and grotesque, i think from some aspects of the war. In that it wasnt blundered in, like the first world war. There was one man, the japanese experience is slightly different, but can be almost considered separately. One man brought this about. The only time hitler ever made me smile, is when i think it was just before the invasion of poland. Which set the war in motion. But he was questioned by a general and said i havent got any nerves about this. For the war im worried about is some swine is gonna come up with a peace proposal. He was set on it, ever since 1918. The fact that this one man flipped germany, the best educated country on earth. The best educated country that has ever been into this pedantic expedition of the best, which is what happened. Its remarkable. And the weirdness of much of the aftermath, its sort of inherent in the war. Its the great crux that no one can answer. It was said of the jews that they went like lambs to the slaughter. You can flip that a bit and say, the germans went like lambs to the swat house. And got to work. Do you have any, with your german connections, and your feeling for germany i think you are exceptionally well equipped to write such a book, because of your real connections with england, with america, with your home in germany, and crucially with japan. I dont think it helps, necessarily, to know germany well or japan well, to explain the human propensity for extreme violence. One of the reasons im very happy to be able to be on the stage with, you is i think we share the sort of horrified fascination with white people are capable of doing terrible things. I dont think there are people who say that you could explain this because the germans had an extermination instrumentality. Which goes from luther to hitler. Or the japanese uniquely barbaric and cruel, or anything like that. I dont believe that for a minute. And i think your question is a good one. Is how is it that one of the most highly educated and civilized countries in europe, produced so much extraordinary lives . Because yes, it was hitler who let date. But he couldnt have done it on his own. People had very active participation. And i think hitler is one example, and perhaps the most extreme example in modern history, but there are others on a smaller scale of the political regime that deliberately exploits peoples basic instincts. And i think the idea that there is a torture in all of this is contrite, its probably not true, either. I mean not all of this would make good torture. But it is true, i think, that if the authorities and the government gives people license to do whatever they like with other human beings, youll find a large number, and one cant put a particular number on this, but you will find a sufficient number of people who will do their worst. And it leads to torture and killing. Even if people had live perfectly happy together, before that. And i think again people often say, for example in the bulk in wars, people explained serbian violence against muslims. And said well these are ancient hatreds, and they sort of find a way to explode at a certain time. I dont think hatred is unnecessary hatred, theres all kinds of makes who keep on coming back. And many people eat by politicians and leaders and so, in order to put people up to violence. I dont think there is such a thing of us molded and hate, like a volcano that suddenly bursts out spontaneously. Its always orchestrated. And i think that one of the best examples of this, in my book, in 1945, is what happened particularly in czechoslovakia or poland. Where large german populations, whose families had lived there for centuries, suddenly the polls after the war, the polls and the checks were given licenses by their own leaders, as well as in a way by the allies who did nothing to stop it. They were told, now you can do what you like with the germans. And we cant live with these people anymore, they have to be expelled. And in a way to your worst, and people did for several months. Now, german nationalists like to claim that what happened to the german populations in poland and czechoslovakia, whats the germans insofar knee in germany suffered from the soviet red army, which was also hard in terms of rates, killings and tortures, that somehow this was just as bad as what the germans did to others. Which obviously, is not the case. They are relative icing and trying to not rewrite, but put in a different complexion on these. I mean, it was said in that review from the new york times, that what you didnt do in this book was the hero wise at the allies. And that usually goes along the following lines that say to allied bomb being, being the paradigm of that, yet the return of the ethnic germans where i think the figures you counted to, a 10 Million People brought out of poland and czechoslovakia. Ethnic germans, half 1 million dead, perhaps a bit more. Yalta, where we agreed to return to russian p. O. W. Certain slave meant, and the way we revived colonialism and gave it a shot in the arm. We were also seeing things like the resistance in france, particularly, was not that. Certainly, thats become the mid, but the truth was Something Like collaboration. But i find myself very much reacting against that sort of in a visceral way. And there is no moral equivalent, one should remember that as churchill referred to the more rocked in the war, an interesting concept that i saw raised. The walls get old. And the bigger they are the faster the age. Six years in, theres a kind of, loss of patients. Its a mild way of putting it. But we dont feel that dewy. And i think he said we created the united nations, and the European Community but i would just say well we destroyed hitler. That was the achievement. Yes and it was a necessary achievement of course, and one cant take away the heroism of that. And i think of the bleaker conclusion that one can draw, is often here they can turn into villains. Like the red army they fought like heroes. The sacrifices, of the soviet soldiers were extraordinary. And they fought like lions. And it was a necessary fight, and without them we wouldnt have defeated hitler. But also they behave like beasts often. When they invaded, germany likewise. The red army it was a army of rapists. They were. They said one woman was rape she switches off her procreation ill, and by the way just so to mention there was 1 million births from those rapes. And not just the soviets, they werent the only ones who were guilty, because of the japanese occupations of southeast asia, and melee and so on. The agents in those countries, and a local populations they dont want to go back to the status quo. Where the dutch in the british and the french, did have illusions they could seek simply go back to the prewar order and take back their colonies. But the nationalists, in these countries have often in burma, have collaborated with the japanese. Quite understandably, its a chance to liberate themselves from their european colonial masters. , and in europe these kind of nationalists as collaborators, so who was sent to algeria, and the dutch east indian its a trap. They had soldiers to put down the anti colonial nationalist for billions. With often atrocious force and, people who fought in the resistance against nazis. So my point really, is that Human Behavior including atrocity and extreme violence is not a matter of character culture, its a matter of circumstances. And the same people who can behave like heroes in certain circumstances, can behave like animals and others. And that finding, if you find yourself if you have something completely at your mercy, the human thought that comes next is torture. And although we should take note, because in general the better angels of our nature its a book, white violence in kind. So one sort of comes back from his conclusion, that the violence continues in kind. And of the reasons of the abuses, one important notion, but took a lot of reestablishing itself, who has the monopoly of violence. And it must be the state. Its a founding idea, of what makes a nation state. Its not in this country. No never in this country, i was thought that americans have not accepted that concept. And they want to be able to stand up to it to the u. S. Army and get slightly tyrannical in the white house. But, that has been the Police Actually or what stops violence. Going back centuries. And that gathering force, and also you may be interested to know, that the novel made a big difference. Steven does not like the word empathy. He said he had another screening, and one of the children said. But thats unquestionably within the promoted. Do you think its a radical, the idea that you torture somebody if you get the chance. No, i dont think so. And i dont think, that high culture makes a better human being. And this is one of george signers, great hobby horses, that how is it possible, that an excess officer, can play piano beautifully, and read palms, could the next day go to work, and pulling peoples fingernails. I dont think its all that mysterious. And nor do i think, Higher Education makes us into more, moral human beings. I do think its a question of, well as i said of circumstances. And i suppose, if you think of more recent wars, and its a real moral dilemma, because when you talk about the monopoly of force. Saddam hussein, monopolized the force in his state. And in extremely brutal manner, it was a state in which torture was widespread. People were gassed and someone. Well he came up with torture. Indeed he did. He monopolized. It and one could argue, that its one thing that people fear more, then a brutal dictatorship, and thats anarchy. And which its every man for himself and chaos. Which we see, to some extent we see in libya right now. We see it to some extent in iraq and so on. Which is not to say well, things wouldve been better if we had left Saddam Hussein alone, but its something that people should think about a bit more, before they casually say well we as americans its our duty to fight dictatorship and bring freedom and use military force to do so. They should have listened to whats to them said. Iraq is a very difficult place to govern. Well he was right. Helicopter and gunships, and poison gas and torture and tear. Its terrible brutal, dictatorial order but it was still preferred, to violent anarchy. And violent anarchy in many ways is what you had in 1945. Till order was restored. Ideology, the period in 1940 to 1945, has been called 30 year war in europe, but it wasnt a war of religion can ideology, sense was, that the ideology you know religious religion like was like harrowing, and you know it was like methadone, and it brings you ten trembling down. But 100 million did for communism in fantasy, the barbaric lee, its not been seen for centuries. Because of ideology. Also the border in religion of ideology and religion is not so clear. In its most violent faces, and much of it was very violent, there is not a huge distinction, of maeism, between religion and id geology. Because it was a religious cult, where people could be tortured to death, for treading on a newspaper with mouths pitcher on it. And thats religion at its worse. You know just because i had chairman maos face on it. For if you think the peer group is a determinant of young peoples behavior, and throughout their lives the great study of that is, brownings police reserve. Battalion oneonone. Where its established, that the killing squads that went out, behind the wheel. In poland and in russia. They would go and kill everyone, and what is that law i think it was 38,000 dead. They would kill women and children, all day and no one ever got punished for seeking transfer. They were not sent to the front, they werent sent to some penal commander at the front, they would be transferred, and all you might have in the meantime, was a bit of a jostling in the launch queue. You know letting that side down. Theres not a single gays, of anybody being punished for requesting a transfer. Yet rather than chain themselves, back to the group they would kill women and children all day every day. They dont really enjoy, it was just the wear and tear on the nerves i guess of ss. And of course the gas chambers, were employed. Because, after while the killing its a bit of a strain. So even if they got drunk, which they did and so it was considered to be cleaner and more efficient to have gas chambers. And the people who operated the gas chambers, were not usually germans either. It was left up to the victims to do that. So is not necessarily the case that the killers found the easy, but i suppose you could get used to anything. And the other thing is, well we are on this subject, ive often thought, that the reason why the violence in civil wars, and again, to come back to the germans and after the war, and poland and czechoslovakia. The reason why they are so particularly brutal, and the killing almost always, goes together with humiliation. You know the last famous instance, was the seeks, set upon i cant remember it was. They were set upon in direct gandhis son. And in india you see it over over again. And people who sat upon their neighbors and it wasnt enough to kill people the way the jews were killed also it wasnt enough just to kill them. It was almost proceeded by humiliation. Of some grotesque kind. I think, this is simply speculation. I think one of the reasons, and its not easy for one human being, to murder another human being. Especially if they identify with, or if they look like you and so on. So it makes it easier, if you reduce your victim to the status of an animal. Some abject creature, crawling around in the mud. And then youre killing an animal, and no longer human being. Which is why you have to reduce people to that state. Even animalization or insect. Yes, if the you know the victims were called cockroaches. Its easier to kill cockroaches than your neighbor. The slander, its hard to watch. In the ghettos of poland, i think if the holocaust had never happened, we would regard that look as some type of bc already. You know how did the polls, you know the jews were terrorized, and pulverized, and exploited and had to work for their conquer. But theres gerbils had a report, and he said i visited the ghetto in warsaw, he says if you have any sympathy at all, you should see what these people left themselves and go visit there, they have no self respect. No common decency. Its a trendsetter, the way they treat their children. Their children are starving. And the imposition of, what we think of them. Then the humanness, recalling of your indignation. Yes, and hitler found it rather unpleasant. Who hymnal. Are you similar. Now its when he fainted nearly. And if you had been a german, in 1942, and was in clinics bag, they were machine gunning mental patients to clear bed space to people who had gone mad while killing women and children i thought something is not quite right in there now, but on the other hand, in 45, after deliberation, russian troops, often teenagers, raided hospitals and raped people sometimes under death beds, patients. We have to be a little careful, the two of us. When you write about violence, there is of course the danger of the pornography of violence. Where frightened of it, and therefore fascinated by it. One always has to be a bit careful, that you dont start to revel in descriptions of it. Because there is a pub or pornographic into it. And how one guards against, i have no clear answer to it. Its a factor. As we sit here, talking. Very close to lying to a prima levy called literally history, when you come into. These horribly, unwelcome lee rich human experiences. Dense human experiences. And its close to sex. I think thats why there is a pornographic since two. It people read the violence with a fascination that is not entirely unrelated to the fascination for reading about sex. I would say that many of the americans have directions, visible erections. But in line with what this argument is one note that there was a standing ovation in congress when his senate commuted. There was a hit song called the battle him, i was on top of the rock charges for months. Not immediately true. You are not en masse. No. But i think there was sort of a horror of americans, it begins, americans are capable of doing these things as germans are and here lies an interesting case. Because people often wonder about things like the rate and the japanese, Chinese Capital at the time, and there was massive rape and killing. And its often been explained as the japanese being particularly cruel and barbaric. How is it possible that an army near, at least in the rust japanese war, the army was known for its discipline and its treatment to the p. O. W. And. So i think it explains a little bit in world war ii, and afterwards as well, and that is a particular situation when soldiers are in a foreign country that dont understand the language. They are at, see often country boys, you could be shot at by anybody, guerrilla fighters and so on. So you go into a tine town, village, you have no idea whos gonna be shooting at you. There is that great intention to be triggerhappy, and just shoot them all. And i think, i dont think it was an act of unnecessarily, despite the interactions of calculated sadism. I think all of these things can come out of fear. And they had taken many they had taken a lot of losses. They did, as had the japanese. Again theres just thing of dehumanization of the enemy. Quote, unquote, black pajamas and some remote village to a lot of those fearful provincial soldiers, from rural america, they would not have seemed to be entirely human. I would like to read a sentence. Because what this book does so well, is capture the amazing complexity and all the different theaters and situations. How roma fight it all was. This is talking about yugoslavia. There were parties in several wars going along the same, time fighting along ethnic, political and religious lines. Croatian catholics versus orthodox, versus muslim bosnians, versus communist partisans, versus slovenians, versus communist. Sounds a bit like syria. [laughs] but, i mean, look at greece and they have said theyll go again through the villages. But even after the event that, revolutionary violence is right, and what was do you, just as dictatorships often do in foreign occupations is they deliberately manipulate resentments, divisions and so on that existence societies anyway. I mean in france, the v she regime would never have come to power if it hadnt been for the German Occupation. In greece, again at the antagonists between the left and the right, goes back to the prewar period. When they had a right wing dictatorship, and the left wing opponents, who were looked up in jail. Germans then occupied grease. The resistance comes from the left, often communists. The old guard become collaborators with the germans. And that goes on after the war. And so, in greece, it ended up in a very brutal civil war. And in italy couldve easily have become a civil war. In france it was simmering. In belgium the dutch speaking flemish nationalists were deliberately inflamed by the German Occupation against the french speaking. There was no monarch in belgium to keep things together, because he was tainted by trying to make a deal with the germans and so on. So what happens after the war than, its not that you doubled the dictator or bring the brutal enemy to heal, in some ways, the problems go on. The problems which had been may worst by the water. And how do you contain that . Having sort of a national figure, a king or a queen, or to goal in the case of france, who has legitimacy to patch things up. And de gaule did it or legitimately by talking about the eternal french, and being anti german, in putting together. As though you hadnt had the vichy regime. Mueller was probably necessary thing to do, because of the way the country couldnt have been torn apart. The other reason you didnt have civil wars and france, its that the soviets and the western allies very clearly divided the world, and stalin told the french and the italian communists he was not considerable to revolution their. Talk a bit about japan. Because theres a very extreme say here, the cult of mcarthur, and the revamping of japan. The removal to confess hemus human, and not divine, of the emperor. Which game is a great relief to the emperor. I dont think anybody really likes to be a god. The emperor preferred to have his english breakfast, and the human. Talk about the process. Well the difference between journey in japan is that, which is the other thing of course, after world war ii the allies often had a very hazy idea of what it produced one had produced all of this horror. As you say in the beginning, what explains what the nazis did, with the germans dated. From one of the most common theories at the time, that was one that churchill, i think for a long time believed, it was because of professionalism. The german impression military spirit who had produced all of this. Of course we knew better and the prussians were . The ones who tried to assassinate hairs in 1940, for yes, nonetheless they were sort of relatively speaking german. But in germany was fairly easy, because there had been a clear takeover in 1933, by a criminal regime. I came to an end in the 1940, five there was a nazi barley under hitler. So in germany could make the case, and there was some truth to it, that if you get rid of the nazi elements in the government, you get rid of nazism. Germany could be restored to a decent european country. After all it was also the country of mozart, though, then go eight. There was a real culprit, the nazi party, hitler, the gestapo. In japan it wasnt so simple. Because there was no equivalent to the nazi party. There was no hitler. There was no holocaust, in fact. Even though there was an enormous amount of killing in china, in particular. Also in southeast asia. But there was no deliberate systematic attempt to exterminate an entire people. So they had to be another explanation. And then japan the explanation was precisely a variant of prussianism. The summarize spirit. So while in germany you could denounce defy and revive the best of german culture, the feeling amongst the ignorant allies after the wars was something so written about the japanese culture, that was fatalistic, warrior like. So the whole culture has to be turned upside down. The plays about the same rights had to be banned. Everything to do with feudalism. And to democratized japan along american lines that had to be a reeducation in a very fundamental way. Which in some comical instances of these, there was once a man i think from chances, u. S. Army officer who is in charge of a town somewhere in japan. In rural japan. Who thought that square dancing with the answer, because quite dancing was very equalized with democratizing the japanese. There was a case of the first screen kiss in cinema. The idea was japanese men and women have to be able to treat each other like equals, and that means like americans to have to be able to show their affection. Openly, and not in this fetal way, that was always hated. In the so its great to have a case. So the American Occupation authorities, the censorship board, the occupational authorities, decreed they had to have the first cinematic graphic case. Which was usual reported with a Young Audiences in japan. Who knew the case was gonna come and burst while the clothes in any case, unlike germany, they had to be reeducated. Which is a key phrase at the time. And the japanese were so frightened that the americans would do to them what they did to the chinese, and other asians. That they would have to be raped, and massacred, and so on, where is in fact the u. S. Occupation army, i think was mostly the u. S. In japan, were relatively benign. And that came as such a relief, that most of the japanese authorities who were also sick with warren everything to do with more in the military, where more than happy to be the pupils of american reeducation efforts. And, indeed, even the emperor probably was. Were sort of coming to the end, perhaps you could tell to anecdotes. One about what would happen to your father. And then that very nice epilogue to your book. Well. Would gave me the idea to do this book was really my fathers story. Which is as follows. It baffled me for a long time. He was a law student, in 1941. And if youre a law student the thing was to join a fraternity, because thats where you make your context and so on. And to join a fraternity, then, and still today, then had to go through an initiation. And that meant a lot of hazing and bullying and humiliation being made to jump around like a frog and beaten up and so on. The fraternities in 1941 were actually banned by the german authorities, because they thought that they were sources of resistance. But he went on for another year, but underground. So the hazing was clandestine, as you would. Now, he also as a student had to sign an oath of allegiance to the nazi occupational forces. And 75 of the students, including my father, refused to do. This and if you refused, you are forced to wear working german war industry. And my father, like others, went into hiding. And somebody screwed up, on a student on the ground, and the resistance told him to come back to him hometown. He was met by my grandfather, who was in bad health, and there was a lot of German Police around. And it was announced that those young men who didnt sign the oath had to go to germany immediately. And if they did not their parents would be arrested. And my father was afraid that this would happen to his parents. So he ended up in berlin. And he lived through the bombings, they invite, the u. S. Forces during the day, in the red army. He was almost shot by a soviet soldier. He collapsed in the middle of a street of exhaustion and hunger. Berman, all that. Fleece, in his case. He was particularly frightened by that. He always said that those who had fleas didnt have, listen vice versa. I dont know if this is true. But he was nursed back to some kind of health by a german prostitute, and it up in a displaced persons camp, and then back to hole and in the summer of 1940. And then went back to university. Only to be told by senior members of the fraternity, that because the initiation in 41 had gone on underground, i had to do the whole thing over again. And there were boys who suffered far worse when my father, who should only were forced to jump around like frogs and so on. So i said to my father, how is it possible that you couldve put up with this nonsense . After all of you experienced, huge wouldve shrug your shoulders. And he said well is the way it was. And also, we thought that was normal. And i think thats the key word. Because i think there was a yearning for some kind of normality, to go back to the world as it had been before the war. To him, and to others, this represented the normal world. No, he was not as he is not, hes still alive, hes 90. Hes not a particularly traumatized men. He never was even particularly anti german. But certain things from his war experience did linger. And one of them was a horror fireworks, some loud bangs. German crowds, are not his favorite place to be stuck in either. And in 1989, we decided, my sisters and i, that we would go spend new years eve in brilliant. It was only the second time that he had been back. And there we were, it was all very festive. And my father was not really have to be, there was a enormous crowd of people with champagne bottles, who were singing, and sitting on the wall and all that. And it was near midnight. And suddenly the fireworks exploded. And we lost her father in the crowd. We couldnt find him. And we looked for him, looked for him, and then went back to the hotel. In about 2 00 in the morning he staggered in the room, hed been hit by a fire rocket right there. The reason i use this story, is that 1989 it was seen by many as now finally world war ii is over. This is the end. Peace in europe is now finally free. Now we live with george bush, he talked about within your order, finally we are in this better world that everybody had hoped for. At the end of history, etc. And i somewhat used to select, or in the anecdote, to show that unfortunately the brave new world will never come. I think its time for you to [applause] please take your hands up. Its better to go to the microphones, because everyone can hear them. All right, okay. But its hard for some people to get there. Well if its too hard talk loud. Im glad its cooled off a bit, i was feeling a bit like Albert Brooks in broadcast news. Flocks of sweat. Yes. A question for both of you. We cant hear you. Is this on . Can someone turn it . On speak. Okay. Just a question may be directed to both of you. Triggered by mr. Amys comments on hiroshima, and some of the allied atrocities. And i certainly agree that there is no moral equivalence, and i abide each of that. But it seems to me that the inequalities in world war ii was a target of civilians on both sides. The alarms were basically professional military people killing military, people prior to that. In that was on both sides. The germans bombed london, and the irs as you mentioned, in the u. S. Air force was bombed. German civilians, some of them who may have been just like the rest of us in the room, maybe not particularly political and so on. So i wonder if you could just comment on that . Well, there were two reasons, its a bit like these killers and poland. You get used to it. And there were two reasons why the british began to bomb deliberately civilian populations in cities like hamburg, and later other cities. One was an illustration of how people often do the wrong mess of history. Because the generals who fought in world war ii, had memories of world war i. In the last thing they want it was a war of attrition. And they thought that bumping would demoralize the enemy population, and they wouldnt turn against our leaders and bring the war to a speedier and. Which turned out to be a completely faulty analysis, in fact it often did the opposite. It embraces dimmer all in an odd way. Like london can take it, and the blitz, and so on and so forth. They talk about the era wars being a defeat. Not yes. Theres another reason, which is that the british were desperate. I think hamburg was 42, and there was no way that the british then, i must open earlier . There was no way to fight back, at that stage, against what was still a formidable german air me. And they felt they had to do something. And de saw it that bombing german cities, at least was a token of fighting back. And in the beginning, they tried to bomb the railway stations, that kind of thing. And it was too costly. Because he didnt have the kind of equipment that allowed you to bump from a great height. And so they had to go over losing bomber crews. And so, thats why they thought this new tactic of bonding civilians, and demoralizing them. Once they started doing that, it got progressively worse. And then something that wouldve still being thought an atrocity, except, by the way, when it came to the colonies. Because the first instance of bombing civilians, i think was in iraq. When churchill was minister of war, i believe, and bomba harris was already involved. Thats when it started. But when they started doing largescale germany, it got progressively worse, and more vindictive. And then in japan, it was even worse than that. Because the cities were made of wooden houses, and they withdraw bombs. And they had firestorms who came worse. The famous phrase by curtis lemay, American Air Force general of bombing them back to the stone age. Because people often associated with vietnam, he actually said that in 44, i think late 44, when they were bomb in japan. And robert mcnamara, in the later famous documentary about raw mcdonald, said that if the allies had lost a war they would be war criminals. Although when the more equivalents ideas are brought up, people have said that is just as bad as a death camps. Well its a different thing. Its a different thing for this reason among others. The losses of the aircrew, the den ring, tenth of thousands of people dying, delivering those bombs. And a handful of ss were killed in the rebellions, and the camps. Yes, thats absolutely true. Also they didnt do it because it was some ideological program of exterminating germans are japanese. It was an act of war, it was an atrocious act of war. But it was an act of war. As it was the war against jews, had nothing to do with any kind of military exercise, it was purely aback about killing. Yes in fact that detracted from the war. Yes. My question sideways into that. Then america really have to drop the atomic bomb, bombs, on japan . Or were they so weak they wouldve surrendered anyway . While they probably wouldve. But the question is when . And the americans wanted to finish the war as quickly as they could. Because they were running out of money. Most americans were sick of war, they wanted the boys to come home. So the appetite to prolong it was a very low. And there was also the fear, at that stage, that this obvious would invade japan first. So we did want to bring, if they did it one they did want to avoid an invasion. Was it necessary . We were never entirely, we will never know for sure. But we do know is that even after the second bomb, on nagasaki, the japanese war council, which was they were the ones who had to decide on whether to surrender or not, and it had to be a unanimous decision, die hard in the war Council Still argued that they had to fight till the last men and women in child. And it was only the second time in his rain, that the emperor did actually step in. Im sure he didnt do it off his own bat, but he did step in and said no we have to surrender. And the main reason, i think, was that the japanese were afraid that the red army would get there first. Or that there would be a communist inspired rebellion. The other thing, the atom bombs jade, was that it gave the die hards in some ways an excuse to surrender. Because they could say well this is force mature. We havent lost face, we fought the war, we were not defeated. But with a weapon like that, its like boxing somebody in your opponents only draws a gun. What can you do . So it served as a way out. Know whether it was absolutely necessary, as i said, we wont know. Because they wouldve surrendered, but it may have taken more time. Id like to know it martin thanks, because you ran on this. More than i have, really. Its one of the moral questions. Is there a moral difference between firebombing tokyo, and killing more than 100,000 people in a few nights . And using an autumn bomb, and killing 60 seven in the numbers are not perhaps the rate, thats a killing an equivalent number of people. Is there a difference between, a moral difference, between one weapon and another . Its always clear to me. We should say about hiroshima and nagasaki, that they had only two bombs. One uranium one plutonium. It had spent an incredible amount of money making those. Youve got to use it. They just thought to demonstration, but they had to make those two things count. I dont know, this comes up all the time. The moral different. Did you feel there was a model difference when in syria, when the chemical weapons were used . Well, no, it wasnt immediately clear to me. Because yes, of course, using chemical weapons is absolutely horrific. But i think the red line was a rhetorical mistake. It certainly was. Because if it wasnt for 100,000 people being killed by other means, you certainly say will we have to go to war because theyre using chemical weapons. Im a bit dubious about that extinction. Well, i think, chemical weapons and biological weapons, that they are exponential weapons. And i think one should have, certainly in terms of international policing, you have to have it. Yes to bandwidth, course. Id be entirely in favor of that. But theres an app to absolute moral distinction, im not so sure about that. Not an absolute one. But partly practical one. Yes. They do kill lots of people. And go on. Yes but then you would have to say, gassing people also kills a lot of people, more quickly and more efficiently than shooting them. But was there a moral distinction between the gas chambers and sending in someone in shooting people in the neck . While the gas chambers where a rapid phenomenon, because he probably wouldve gone close using bullets. Gas was not cheaper. Indeed yes but sir practical consumption. Thank you, flint. For the things you have said. I liked what you said about the fact that we are very educated, does that mean we are better and we act differently from the ignorantly people of this world . For me, the question then is, whats formation should we be talking about to help humanity. To make sure people behave well. Are we doomed to believe that there is no formation out there that we can put together to help humanity, so that each time we get into a crisis situation, it becomes a question of circumstances, and we become violent. Along with this, i realized in the last few years, especially in this country, the humanities have been taking a hit. Technology, studies in technology and science, seems to be what the universities want to promote. Bring more money in, i realize. Thinking also that reading that humanities is not going to improve our wellbeing. I did not want to rumble too much. You are giving me wonderful, insightful information. Any one of you will help me think through this, whether what kind of formation. Unless you are religious and you believe religion will make you behave better, and some cases it may be true. Is it a question of institutions and law. You need to have a monopoly as a government. You need to have laws that play major role in making people behave. We need police force, proper institutions. Without proper institutions, the law of the jungle prevails. As i said, when the law the jungle prevails, it does not matter whether you are german, american, or japanese, black, white or yellow. The worst happens. Sorry . What about don hopper . What about him . [inaudible] im not saying all human beings are monsters. He was heroic, he was a moral hero. Yes i dont think that if you have a government well, a government or an occupation that works on peoples base instincts, i dont think it is true that everybody will behave like a monster. The number of people that behave like monsters, deliberately, is not the majority. The majority tries to survive and look the other way if it suits them, the absolute monsters are not the majority. Nor, are the moral heroes, they are even rare. Even in the worst circumstances, you will have moral heroes. He stood up to the nazi regime, paid for his life. He was a decent human being, the way others were. That determines whether you will be a monster or hero. They may be true, again, yes, you are right, but as i said before, sometimes heroes can become monsters, and possibly, even the other way around. He was an isolated case. People, there are many more monsters and there are heroes. In the camps, in auschwitz, one intent of the ss were monsters. Clearly, they got satisfaction out of it. One in 1000 were heroes. Its much more dangerous to be a moral hero in the circumstances, to be a monster is easy. Theyre real heroes, its a minor consideration as a moral hero. In prima levy, he said that hunts followed in berlin, was the best novels. Describe the period. Alone in berlin, as it is translated in the u. S. , every man dies alone. I was wondering if you are even had opinions about moral immigrationi about the author r the novel. I am not entirely clear about that novel. He was considered to be part of inner immigration, and he stayed in germany even though his british publisher was going to get him out, and he stayed and we counted would ordinary german life was like. He didnt say he was a hero but he was able to say what germans experience during the war. It was published in 2010 by penguin. It was published in 1947. It was the last book that he published after his death. He died before was published. I could not finish that novel. I got halfway through. He goes off on a huge red herring about the gestapo, and all things like them wearing the star during the invasion of france in 94. The star didnt come in until september 41. All the inaccuracy than that account. Writing of that book was very courageous. Have you seen the diary of a man in despair by friedrich racked . Scathing, hate filled reaction to the nazi rule. Not a day by day diary, but little chunks that he hid ten feet deep in his garden. Just to put pen to paper was heroic. Like the diaries of victor clamp or . Let viktor clamber, the logistics professor, also a hero day by day account. I dont think heroic is quite the word, but it is a fascinating one. Your question of inner immigration is very important, because not every system allows that. The difference i think, between nazi journey, unless you are jewish, in which you were doomed. If you are a non jewish german and nazi germany, or ikykyk b ut fascist states, inner immigration was a possibility. You didnt stick your neck, out to kept quiet, you tended to your roses, and you would survive. Under mae, this was absolutely impossible. Or, stalin, you had to activate lee anticipate and voice your enthusiasm. You could not withdrawn retweet, it was not an option. Thank you. My question is about japan. Japanese government is becoming more rightwing, and 1945 commemorates the beginning of the war about the japanese government trying to sell nuclear industries, but do you think about that. This is a long way from 1945. Not entirely. Lets leave the nuclear question aside for a minute. The rightwing nature of the current prime minister, that goes back to 1945. Part of the reggie education of japan a 1945, 46, 47, was that the americans wrote a new constitution. Because the war was blamed on military, it was a pacifist constitution. Most japanese were perfectly content, proud of it even. Some japanese, nationalists, felt that this was probably japan of its sovereignty, if you cannot use military force under any circumstances and foreign policy. You have to leave it up to someone else. You are curating to americans. Theres always been a minority that wanted to change the constitution, and rejapan sovereign right to use its armed forces in any way its off it. The mainstream in japan, especially the left, have always use the argument against provision of the constitution by saying, look, japan as it were like an alcoholic, you cannot start waving a drink under its nose, it will go back to its bad weight. Look what happened did nine king, manila, we should never be tempted again. As long as that argument is used, the National Vision is a right. Every country has wars in history, words are terrible, we do bad things, no worse than any other country. There is nothing we should feel ashamed about. Lets revive the constitution and feel proud of ourselves. That is the attitude of the current prime minister. What is disturbing about it, history has become so polarized and politicized in japan, that nobody is talking about finding nobody attempts to find the truth anymore, it is all about what political agenda you have, that determines your view of the war, rather than facing it coolly and squarely as germans have learned how to do. Im very interested in german people acceptance of hitler. I am not sure if it was as easy has you have depicted. Was there not more of a score, as many as 30 active plots against hitler. The most famous was in 44. Were there not many others . Were there not religious groups, military groups, and other groups of people, who did not care for hitler . Many of whom actively worked against him . For example, ellen dutch, military intelligence were cooperating very closely. Angle americans historian seem not to realize if that was in fact true . Any institution that stood out to hitler, effectively, was the army. All the opposition in the army, melted after france. Summer of 1940, no one believe that he could conquer france in the way he proposed. He did it, and it looks like a miracle. Very sound and good people like james long said, for a couple of weeks or so, i thought, he is a bit referendum the edges, but look at this. France. The historic enemy. Once the army has come on board, that was the end of the opposition. He got rid of generals very quickly, who did not go along with him. There were, indeed, people in germany who opposed him in the thirties. The use of terror, very effective. It took more and more courage to oppose him openly, which we came almost impossible. Yes, once he was in power there were many people who did not like what was going on. Many chose in emigration, because that was the only way to survive. I do not think it Angela Merkel prejudice to say there was not much in the way of real organized opposition. There were some opposition groups here and there, in the army and elsewhere, but not much. The people when the assassination attempt, the colonel spot failed. He had the nation behind them. Most germans did okay, as long as you are not jewish. Until people got badly bombed, they act better than people in occupied countries, and life was not all that bad. It took a huge amount of courage to actively resist it. I dont think there was a huge amount of it. More goes into this. It was difficult to be brave and nazi, germany. You had to be prepared to die, you had to be prepared for prelou deal torture, and you had to withstand that, because naming no names. And its not very accessible to, us its a very german thing. Not in the occupied countries many any criminal could die like a murder. But in germany it was arranged so that anymore nor would die like a criminal. And you wouldnt be celebrated after your death, your wife would turn your photograph around. Your parents would told you, your children would be told that doesnt match today . No. Germany found a very difficult to comp template. And that would stop people from physical courage and shame. [applause]
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