2013. Ian buruma, professor of human rights and journalism at bard college, was educated in holland and japan. Hes won several awards for his work, among them the international prize, and the short and steam journalism award. The publication he writes for and include the new york review of books, new yorker new york times, the guardian. Which, the guardian, recently published his highly learned it and entertaining review of the British Museums current exhibition, sex and pleasure in japanese art. Among the previous books our religion and democracy on three continents, murder in amsterdam liberal europe islam in the limits of tolerance, and inventing japan, 1863 to 1964. In the year, zero the history of 1945, most of which he wrote while he was a fellow at the comment center, in 2011 and 2012. To the serious envy of his fellow fellow, start he was so productive. He has produced a brilliant portrayal of the world emerging from the devastation and unspeakable horrors of world war ii, in europe and asia. Skeptical about the idea that we can learn much from history, he nonetheless wanted to know, he writes, what those who lived through war in the end including his own father went through. To help make sense of myself, and indeed all are lives in the dorm long dark shadow of what came before. The wall street call year zero remarkable. Its a combination of magnificence and modesty. And the Financial Times describes it as elegant, humane, luminous. Martin amis who was honored last fall as a New York Public Library lion, and has published more than 25 books including a several collections of stories in many novels. Among them money, london feels, time arrow, and most recently the state of england. Amis received a price for has more experience, and was claimed one of the 50 betas greatest british writers since 1945, by the london times and 2008. 1945 seems to be a scene here, tonight. We are extremely fortunate to be able to listen in on a conversation between these two extraordinarily gifted writers, who are also friends. They will talk for about 45 minutes, and take a few questions from the audience. There are mics towards the front, on both sides, so please come up to the right mike rather than try to speak from your chair. And then, they will sign books. So when they are finished you can please let them get out to the table out there, to sign. Please welcome ian buruma and martin amis. [applause] well the first thing to be said, ian, this is a tremendous book. Its an amazing task of organizing a great deal of kaleidoscopic material. The war, the aftermath of the war, is a term and by the war itself. It is shaped by the years that preceded it. And ive been spending recent years writing about this war. And wondering about it. And it was, apart from being uniquely devastating in the 55 million dead and many ruin city, and all the devastation we know of, it looks increasingly weird and grotesque, i think from some aspects of the war. In that it wasnt blundered in, like the first world war. There was one man, the japanese experience is slightly different, but can be almost considered separately. One man brought this about. The only time hitler ever made me smile, is when i think it was just before the invasion of poland. Which set the war in motion. But he was questioned by a general and said i havent got any nerves about this. For the war im worried about is some swine is gonna come up with a peace proposal. He was set on it, ever since 1918. The fact that this one man flipped germany, the best educated country on earth. The best educated country that has ever been into this pedantic expedition of the best, which is what happened. Its remarkable. And the weirdness of much of the aftermath, its sort of inherent in the war. Its the great crux that no one can answer. It was said of the jews that they went like lambs to the slaughter. You can flip that a bit and say, the germans went like lambs to the swat house. And got to work. Do you have any, with your german connections, and your feeling for germany i think you are exceptionally well equipped to write such a book, because of your real connections with england, with america, with your home in germany, and crucially with japan. I dont think it helps, necessarily, to know germany well or japan well, to explain the human propensity for extreme violence. One of the reasons im very happy to be able to be on the stage with, you is i think we share the sort of horrified fascination with white people are capable of doing terrible things. I dont think there are people who say that you could explain this because the germans had an extermination instrumentality. Which goes from luther to hitler. Or the japanese uniquely barbaric and cruel, or anything like that. I dont believe that for a minute. And i think your question is a good one. Is how is it that one of the most highly educated and civilized countries in europe, produced so much extraordinary lives . Because yes, it was hitler who let date. But he couldnt have done it on his own. People had very active participation. And i think hitler is one example, and perhaps the most extreme example in modern history, but there are others on a smaller scale of the political regime that deliberately exploits peoples basic instincts. And i think the idea that there is a torture in all of this is contrite, its probably not true, either. I mean not all of this would make good torture. But it is true, i think, that if the authorities and the government gives people license to do whatever they like with other human beings, youll find a large number, and one cant put a particular number on this, but you will find a sufficient number of people who will do their worst. And it leads to torture and killing. Even if people had live perfectly happy together, before that. And i think again people often say, for example in the bulk in wars, people explained serbian violence against muslims. And said well these are ancient hatreds, and they sort of find a way to explode at a certain time. I dont think hatred is unnecessary hatred, theres all kinds of makes who keep on coming back. And many people eat by politicians and leaders and so, in order to put people up to violence. I dont think there is such a thing of us molded and hate, like a volcano that suddenly bursts out spontaneously. Its always orchestrated. And i think that one of the best examples of this, in my book, in 1945, is what happened particularly in czechoslovakia or poland. Where large german populations, whose families had lived there for centuries, suddenly the polls after the war, the polls and the checks were given licenses by their own leaders, as well as in a way by the allies who did nothing to stop it. They were told, now you can do what you like with the germans. And we cant live with these people anymore, they have to be expelled. And in a way to your worst, and people did for several months. Now, german nationalists like to claim that what happened to the german populations in poland and czechoslovakia, whats the germans insofar knee in germany suffered from the soviet red army, which was also hard in terms of rates, killings and tortures, that somehow this was just as bad as what the germans did to others. Which obviously, is not the case. They are relative icing and trying to not rewrite, but put in a different complexion on these. I mean, it was said in that review from the new york times, that what you didnt do in this book was the hero wise at the allies. And that usually goes along the following lines that say to allied bomb being, being the paradigm of that, yet the return of the ethnic germans where i think the figures you counted to, a 10 Million People brought out of poland and czechoslovakia. Ethnic germans, half 1 million dead, perhaps a bit more. Yalta, where we agreed to return to russian p. O. W. Certain slave meant, and the way we revived colonialism and gave it a shot in the arm. We were also seeing things like the resistance in france, particularly, was not that. Certainly, thats become the mid, but the truth was Something Like collaboration. But i find myself very much reacting against that sort of in a visceral way. And there is no moral equivalent, one should remember that as churchill referred to the more rocked in the war, an interesting concept that i saw raised. The walls get old. And the bigger they are the faster the age. Six years in, theres a kind of, loss of patients. Its a mild way of putting it. But we dont feel that dewy. And i think he said we created the united nations, and the European Community but i would just say well we destroyed hitler. That was the achievement. Yes and it was a necessary achievement of course, and one cant take away the heroism of that. And i think of the bleaker conclusion that one can draw, is often here they can turn into villains. Like the red army they fought like heroes. The sacrifices, of the soviet soldiers were extraordinary. And they fought like lions. And it was a necessary fight, and without them we wouldnt have defeated hitler. But also they behave like beasts often. When they invaded, germany likewise. The red army it was a army of rapists. They were. They said one woman was rape she switches off her procreation ill, and by the way just so to mention there was 1 million births from those rapes. And not just the soviets, they werent the only ones who were guilty, because of the japanese occupations of southeast asia, and melee and so on. The agents in those countries, and a local populations they dont want to go back to the status quo. Where the dutch in the british and the french, did have illusions they could seek simply go back to the prewar order and take back their colonies. But the nationalists, in these countries have often in burma, have collaborated with the japanese. Quite understandably, its a chance to liberate themselves from their european colonial masters. , and in europe these kind of nationalists as collaborators, so who was sent to algeria, and the dutch east indian its a trap. They had soldiers to put down the anti colonial nationalist for billions. With often atrocious force and, people who fought in the resistance against nazis. So my point really, is that Human Behavior including atrocity and extreme violence is not a matter of character culture, its a matter of circumstances. And the same people who can behave like heroes in certain circumstances, can behave like animals and others. And that finding, if you find yourself if you have something completely at your mercy, the human thought that comes next is torture. And although we should take note, because in general the better angels of our nature its a book, white violence in kind. So one sort of comes back from his conclusion, that the violence continues in kind. And of the reasons of the abuses, one important notion, but took a lot of reestablishing itself, who has the monopoly of violence. And it must be the state. Its a founding idea, of what makes a nation state. Its not in this country. No never in this country, i was thought that americans have not accepted that concept. And they want to be able to stand up to it to the u. S. Army and get slightly tyrannical in the white house. But, that has been the Police Actually or what stops violence. Going back centuries. And that gathering force, and also you may be interested to know, that the novel made a big difference. Steven does not like the word empathy. He said he had another screening, and one of the children said. But thats unquestionably within the promoted. Do you think its a radical, the idea that you torture somebody if you get the chance. No, i dont think so. And i dont think, that high culture makes a better human being. And this is one of george signers, great hobby horses, that how is it possible, that an excess officer, can play piano beautifully, and read palms, could the next day go to work, and pulling peoples fingernails. I dont think its all that mysterious. And nor do i think, Higher Education makes us into more, moral human beings. I do think its a question of, well as i said of circumstances. And i suppose, if you think of more recent wars, and its a real moral dilemma, because when you talk about the monopoly of force. Saddam hussein, monopolized the force in his state. And in extremely brutal manner, it was a state in which torture was widespread. People were gassed and someone. Well he came up with torture. Indeed he did. He monopolized. It and one could argue, that its one thing that people fear more, then a brutal dictatorship, and thats anarchy. And which its every man for himself and chaos. Which we see, to some extent we see in libya right now. We see it to some extent in iraq and so on. Which is not to say well, things wouldve been better if we had left Saddam Hussein alone, but its something that people should think about a bit more, before they casually say well we as americans its our duty to fight dictatorship and bring freedom and use military force to do so. They should have listened to whats to them said. Iraq is a very difficult place to govern. Well he was right. Helicopter and gunships, and poison gas and torture and tear. Its terrible brutal, dictatorial order but it was still preferred, to violent anarchy. And violent anarchy in many ways is what you had in 1945. Till order was restored. Ideology, the period in 1940 to 1945, has been called 30 year war in europe, but it wasnt a war of religion can ideology, sense was, that the ideology you know religious religion like was like harrowing, and you know it was like methadone, and it brings you ten trembling down. But 100 million did for communism in fantasy, the barbaric lee, its not been seen for centuries. Because of ideology. Also the border in religion of ideology and religion is not so clear. In its most violent faces, and much of it was very violent, there is not a huge distinction, of maeism, between religion and id geology. Because it was a religious cult, where people could be tortured to death, for treading on a newspaper with mouths pitcher on it. And thats religion at its worse. You know just because i had chairman maos face on it. For if you think the peer group is a determinant of young peoples behavior, and throughout their lives the great study of that is, brownings police reserve. Battalion oneonone. Where its established, that the killing squads that went out, behind the wheel. In poland and in russia. They would go and kill everyone, and what is that law i think it was 38,000 dead. They would kill women and children, all day and no one ever got punished for seeking transfer. They were not sent to the front, they werent sent to some penal commander at the front, they would be transferred, and all you might have in the meantime, was a bit of a jostling in the launch queue. You know letting that side down. Theres not a single gays, of anybody being punished for requesting a transfer. Yet rather than chain themselves, back to the group they would kill women and children all day every day. They dont really enjoy, it was just the wear and tear on the nerves i guess of ss. And of course the gas chambers, were employed. Because, after while the killing its a bit of a strain. So even if they got drunk, which they did and so it was considered to be cleaner and more efficient to have gas chambers. And the people who operated the gas chambers, were not usually germans either. It was left up to the victims to do that. So is not necessarily the case that the killers found the easy, but i suppose you could get used to anything. And the other thing is, well we are on this subject, ive often thought, that the reason why the violence in civil wars, and again, to come back to the germans and after the war, and poland and czechoslovakia. The reason why they are so particularly brutal, and the killing almost always, goes together with humiliation. You know the last famous instance, was the seeks, set upon i cant remember it was. They were set upon in direct gandhis son. And in india you see it over over again. And people who sat upon their neighbors and it wasnt enough to kill people the way the jews were killed also it wasnt enough just to kill them. It was almost proceeded by humiliation. Of some grotesque kind. I think, this is simply speculation. I think one of the reasons, and its not easy for one human being, to murder another human being. Especially if they identify with, or if they look like you and so on. So it makes it easier, if you reduce your victim to the status of an animal. Some abject creature, crawling around in the mud. And then youre killing an animal, and no longer human being. Which is why you have to reduce people to that state. Even animalization or insect. Yes, if the you know the victims were called cockroaches. Its easier to kill cockroaches than your neighbor. The slander, its hard to watch. In the ghettos of poland, i think if the holocaust had never happened, we would regard that look as some type of bc already. You know how did the polls, you know the jews were terrorized, and pulverized, and exploited and had to work for their conquer. But theres gerbils had a report, and he said i visited the ghetto in warsaw, he says if you have any sympathy at all, you should see what these people left themselves and go visit there, they have no self respect. No common decency. Its a trendsetter, the way they treat their children. Their children are starving. And the imposition of, what we think of them. Then the humanness, recalling of your indignation. Yes, and hitler found it rather unpleasant. Who hymnal. Are you similar. Now its when he fainted nearly. And if you had been a german, in 1942, and was in clinics bag, they were machine gunning mental patients to clear bed space to people who had gone mad while killing women and children i thought something is not quite right in there now, but on the other hand, in 45, after deliberation, russian troops, often teenagers, raided hospitals and raped people sometimes under death beds, patients. We have to be a little careful, the two of us. When you write about violence, there is of course the danger of the pornography of violence. Where frightened of it, and therefore fascinated by it. One always has to be a bit careful, that you dont start to revel in descriptions of it. Because there is a pub or pornographic into it. And how one guards against, i have no clear answer to it. Its a factor. As we sit here, talking. Very close to lying to a prima levy called literally history, when you come into. These horribly, unwelcome lee rich human experiences. Dense human experiences. And its close to sex. I think thats why there is a pornographic since two. It people read the violence with a fascination that is not entirely unrelated to the fascination for reading about sex. I would say that many of the americans have directions, visible erections. But in line with what this argument is one note that there was a standing ovation in congress when his senate commuted. There was a hit song called the battle him, i was on top of the rock charges for months. Not immediately true. You are not en masse. No. But i think there was sort of a horror of americans, it begins, americans are capable of doing these things as germans are and here lies an interesting case. Because people often w