This event and provided the video. It is my pleasure to introduce nicole myers. Nikole turner is a sister professor of religious studies. She earned her phd in history at the university of pennsylvania. Her masters in divinity new york and her bachelors degree in political science. From high referred college. She is the author of this sole liberty the evolution of black religious politics imposed emancipation virginia. Before asking her the first question, i want to mention that this appears in this kind of conventional version of a hard copy it also has two other versions. Part of what makes her work so interesting is that it makes it possible to it is available as a conventional verbatim open access ebook and also as an enhanced open access ebook which shows off what dr. Turner was able to do with mapping and Digital Technology in order to develop her research findings. So one of the things i hope we will get to talk about today is how she worked with those sources and what kind of comments she thinks digital humanities holds in this research into africanamerican history in particular. Just to start off dr. Turner, tell us about this book. Thank you so much for having me. The book is about the evolution of black women and politics. The main goal of the book two historic size how block churches. There is a very common understanding of black churches as already politically engaged. The aim of my work was to narrate that process. It wasnt always engaged in the same ways. Black churches are in fact historical spaces that have changed across time, and changed during the process of reconstruction. That is with the main aim of the book is. Thank you so much. We will be bouncing back and forth. I dont mean to catch you from two different sides. Im really delighted to read the book and really excited. I have about 9 million questions. I will ask them all at once. Talk really fast, no, im kidding. Im going to try to add it and be patient for all the things i want to ask later. Building off of what you just said. I wonder if you can help us understand what you mean by sole liberty . Its not just a lovely title, but its also a concept he returned to in the book. It seems to speak to some of those intersections you are so interested in, and religion and politics, and how they are shaping each other. I wonder how you could just get us started on what that means in your work . Sure, thank you. Sole liberty actually comes from a quote in the virginia that this state convention minutes, where the members of the convention were citing Roger Williams pursuit up so liberty information of rhode island. What is interesting about the usage of that term is that its not only a turn that apply to the black baptist were part of the study, but it also apply to black episcopalians and black members of the Zion Union Church which started in southern virginia and north carolina. But the term sole liberty soul liberty reverse to this idea of religious freedom. That black people could worship with who, when and where they chose. It also about equity and justice that they were pursuing in the religious communities, but also in the wider public landscape. It originally comes from a specific baptist context that applies to the Baptist Convention, the black episcopalians who attended the branch theological school, which was the first black seminary for black ministers and priests in the episcopal tradition. And to members of the zion church. One of the original black denominations that we start in the south. One of the only ones started in the south. They all pursue this idea of being able to worship as they saw fit. Also, these ideas of freedom, equity and justice. Your answer captures, i think, many of the really fascinating aspects of it. One of which that particularly struck me, and that you note in your text and your own notes, is that that pursuit of liberty is, at first glance, it might read as liberty to warship separate from white interference, which is certainly an important part of the story. But also a liberty that allows for quite different types of formation of the freed peoples religious world. I was interested in, you know, you write about the ways they in the am each arch said so centrally in the literature, which makes perfect sense. And yet other religious experiences, episcopalian so we mentioned, or the African American members of the abc, they seem to be harder to pin down in the literature. What is if you think we gain when we study people who choose to operate and what seems to be an almost completely African American space, but to remain within a white dominated the nomination . What is it that we, as a historian, what drew you to those spaces as well . Im here a couple of things in your question. One has to do with the definition of liberty. One has to do with the sort of differences in the denominations and their approaches. I would say first that this, the ability to see this landscape comes from doing a sort of geographical look. A study that begins in a particular place in virginia. Sort of not taking the lens of a particular denomination. I did not come to it only through the lens of baptists, but also looking at the landscape of virginia which yielded up all three of those different denominations. When you start to think about how each of these religious communities chose to pursue freedom, it becomes really evident that, for the baptists, part of the trajectory of their struggle goes through, sort of the beginnings were black that this are organized already in conventions before the vote is established by the 15th amendment. They are already making arguments for their political participation and for their skill. That was something that was evident even before emancipation. There were black people organizing in associations. They sort of demonstrated their skill and ability to participate as citizens through their own religious communities. Then you find a very interesting story of Saint StephensEpiscopal Church in petersburg, virginia, which is started by a black woman who, in consultation with a white priest of a church that her family became members of, establishes in an independent black church, one of the first black Episcopal Churches for the community in petersburg. Its an interesting story because i think a lot of people tend to associate Episcopal Churches to high culture, not necessarily formerly enslaved freed black communities. They certainly dont associate them with black womens leadership. In this instance, you have black people like carolina brag, who helped establish the church, and her grand son who becomes involved in the movement. Another thing that drew me to the virginia landscape. George bragg becomes involved in the movement and becomes a sort of critical agent in narrating black history. He reflects how the struggle for black freedom took place in many spaces. Whether it was black baptist who are establishing their own independent spaces and associations, or if it was black episcopalians were constantly sort of navigating the lets get of engaging with former confederates, his george bragg did. It really opens up a way of thinking of how did black people go about drawing these types of alliances. This is what drew me to this particular case of virginia. How did they form this alliance . One of the things i think that becomes evident is the struggles for a sense of freedom and finding ways to achieve it in these various denominations. Thank you so much, nicole. This is so interesting. The vast majority of your book takes us into the post civil war period. You are really talking, as the title suggests, as this post event emancipation moment. I wanted to just have you talk a little bit about that transition from slavery to freedom. Youre talking about an area in virginia where the vast majority of African Americans before the civil war were enslaved, although there were some free black people as well. How would you discuss for us, for readers, what that transition look like . What was the extent black religious experiences during the time of slavery than informed what people did after emancipation . What were the particular challenges that people faced as slavery came to an end during the civil war and afterwards. How do you understand and see that transition . Thank you. I think the transition can be seat seen best by thinking, in part, about the sort of longstanding narrative of black church engagement. Also thinking about how it is that, in the antebellum period, there were independent black churches were black people were able to warship. Independent churches. That they were able to sort of develop leadership skills. One of the things we start to see happening in the post emancipation landscape is our debates about Land Ownership and property. So there is this really interesting aspect of thinking about black Land Ownership as something that came first in churches. That black people were starting to navigate the Legal Systems through trying to secure ownership by title and sort of formal ownership by churches that they had actually paid into to help support and develop economically. Part of that transition involves a transition to property ownership. Part of what you see transforming in this post emancipation period has to do a little bit with generals. One of the other things that i wanted to sort of highlight in this moment is how china roles were being established in Church Communities. So part of what you can see, or what i try to convey through telling the story of the Baptist Church in petersburg and looking closely at the landscape of the meetings in the churches, was how gender roles were actually being transformed in that moment. So one of the things i focused on in looking at the cases of pregnancy, these meetings handled many different issues, but i focus in on the cases of unwed pregnancy because there is a sort of clear sort of transformation and how the community initially didnt hold both parties accountable for being pregnant out of wedlock. For a brief moment in time, they do allow for both parties to be held accountable. And then they shift back to having just woman being held accountable. What happens as a result is women move back into the space of sort of only being disciplined during church meetings. You are also seeing the rise of a centralized minister or figure, who is male and has a particular kind of gendered status. I think there are ways in which the leadership roles change and expand. How access to land and property is something that changes through the churches across this time. Also how gender roles are being transformed on the landscape of religious institutions. Just a followup about that question of generals. I feel, and you make reference to the work made in a later period, Glenda Gilmore and elsa barkley brown, kind of an argument that either generals among African Americans, particularly in churches, became more kind of conventional as we understand it now, conventional ideas about male leadership and women being part of the church but not in leadership roles. Conventional ideas about gendered respectability. Did that emerge later . Im wondering, do you see that with you are finding has suggesting that all of the things that people said came about later, actually happened earlier. And also, i think that raises a question which is interesting and kind of really repeated in a lot of different places. Historians have suggested that the immediate post emancipation period was a period of kind of greater experimentation around gender hierarchies among African Americans. Kind of coming out of slavery, that there was more fluidity and constant a confrontation because, for example, so many marriages and so many families have been interrupted by the domestic slave trade. Now you have more moments of flexibility. Are you finding something really different from that here . Yes. I think the short answer is yes. When you look at the petersburg landscape, you definitely see the imposition of gendered roles taking place much earlier. But i think the question is not necessarily only one of the time period, but its also a place. Its also true circumstance. Its also particular ship models. One of the things i talk about in the study and acknowledge is that this is a deep look at a particular community. We need many more studies and many more locations to get a broader picture of these transformations and how they emerge. But yes, i definitely think that, in this particular case, its a challenge of sort of thinking about how generals could have been transformed much earlier. In this particular instance, finding this cash of Church Records really revealed whats taking place on the ground in this community. It was very instructive. People were having a very different experience of how generous been transformed during that time. One of the places we see that is in the conventions and conferences and other organizational and networking levels. You know, we will come back to this and a little bit when we turn to mapping. But staying on the level of where your argument, i want to say first that i think one of the draw is in reading this book, and reading other books of history that have this deep granularity, is seeing a historian take something. That, on its face, a lot of historians rush past because it doesnt seem that interesting. People get that congregations or interesting, but conferences and conventions, you know, theres a lot of like whos representing . And to explain why not only that its meaningful, it was meaningful to them, but also interesting. I do think its one of the magical moments of the book to see you take this thing that we would all feel the impulse to kind of be like, how do i get to the good stuff and say this is actually the good stuff that we see. Or this networking and connection. As you say going back to your question about gender about the ways in the spaces become not exclusively the spaces of the male white privilege. I want if you just tell people who havent yet read it what you draw from those areas why you think those spaces matter what do you to it. Did you know that that was gonna be a real telling part in the course of your studies . Thank you so much. Thats so funny because as you remember people started cautioning me when it would be not of the lot of information about churches that those would be really boring in is not a lot in them. But i will say that when she actually reproduce the schedule of the convention i was just wow that was really instructive about something i had no really insight into. I knew there was something the you could do and not be bored by them. But also, the Baptist Convention units are a treasure trove of information about black religious and political life, preserved on micro film. Some of them have whole 30 year runs. Every year you can buy an annual conventional. These exist for every segment of the state. Its a huge archive you think about it. Theres really a lot here to see. It also came out of an investment of using the archive of black peoples lives. In recognition that the archives of black religious life in many instances can be small can be mediated often through the eyes of white people. This is an archive that comes from black people about their experience. So its really important for me to center those sources. And to use every bit those instructors talking about being told if you find something about black religious lies, you have to find out how you can use it and use it as robustly possible. It was important for me to read those sources and get everything i could from them. You cant help but be struck by what is included in them. The names of all the delegates who attended. The names of all the locations of all the churches that are there. The different issues that they are discussing and recording in their minutes. Their financial records. They are incredibly rich. I saw so much more in them and i thought it was important to use. And as im reading through them, im noticing that there are no women initially on the boards of these conventions, but they show up. They show up in these accounts where they are acknowledged by their donations of the can conventions. The donation of a golden coin. Then you see it happen again and again its like whats going on here that women are showing up in particular ways, to me is starting to speak to the ways that we see as women as members as donors. As women who are financially so many of these conventions rely on. Its like one of these narratives thats already running in my head, and the women the role of black women and churches. It also raises the question the spaces of the churches in all those kinds of things which is the other aspect of the story that i wanted to tell. Weve had social activism and all these things but the kind of take a step back and say how is black man being constructed in the spaces, was something i thought was trying something to try to unearth. Thats a construction is happening in those spaces. I was able to get it that some of the convention, but some of the Church Records. Thank you so much thats a really good segue into a question i wanted to follow up on. I think one of the Central Claims as you said at the beginning of your book, that has to do with the relationship between black church organizing and politics in the formal politics sense, and the kind of voting Party Politics electoral politics. So you talking about being interested investigating but where you can tell about risk reconstruction of black manhood through Church Records, leads me to this question about relationships of those whats going on in formal politics where in 1867, African American manner franchise for the first time, they get the vote. Black women black people start to play a different role in public at,s becoming republicans. What is your, and how do you explain the impact of the kind of entry of African American man in particular to the formal politics of all getting and Party Politics,. The relationship between that and we thank you. I think a couple of things. One has to do with what i think was playing out in the background in the field. Where the churches dealing with these issues of unwed pregnancy and at the same time almost that black men the right to vote at the same time that