Ukraine and georgia as member countries. Representatives of nato, ukraine, and georgia talk about the process of expanding nato membership and russias opposition to adding the two countries. The German Marshall Fund hosted this hour and ten minute event. And im very pleased that today we have the pleasure to welcome our panelists and our viewers on both sides of the atlantic, so good evening, europe. Good morning, america. And for my part, greetings from brussels. The topic of today, ukraine, georgia relations with nato is something i would say is almost part of the dna of the German Marshall Funds. Gmf has been working many years on ukraine and georgia related issues. We do so through our black sea trust fund that supports a new society in black sea countries but also by address so i also really want to thank our partners in this event for all the support they provide. I think we have a terrific lineup of speakers ready to contribute tonight. So today we want to dig a little bit more into the skublt ubject skra ukraine and georgias relationship with nato and how these countries fit into reflection process. This is an initiative launched by nato secretarygeneral to see how nato can best prepare for the next decades. And eventually, this process may lead to a new strategic concept, and i think this is not a luxury. The current one dates back from 2010, if im not mistaken. So i would argue that there is a need to rethink nato strategy. The world that nato creates today has certainly changed in the last ten years. I think for instance about the increased presence of china and the European Security landscape. Think about the assertiveness of russia and key reasons for transAtlantic Security. So the alliance must adapt and if it wants to stay relevant and address these challenges. But that also includes how nato engages with partners. Its crucial that countries like ukraine and georgia are included in this 2030 reflection process, because increasingly, natos adaptation is depending also on the relationship with its partners. So i think in a nutshell, these are the issues that we want to discuss today. What to expect from the 2030 reflection process, why does this process matter, and what is the role of partners like ukraine or georgia . We ares are privileged today because experts will give us an exclusive preview of reports that they wrote on this subject. So let me actually introduce our fabulous speakers today. First, the director of the new york center, welcome to you. The cofounder of the Georgian Institute for strategic studies, and anna fatigua, a member of the European Parliament but also a member of the group of experts of the nato reflection process. Thank you very much for taking the time to be with us. We are also expecting olga to join us, the deputy Prime Minister for european and atlantic integration of ukraine. We will obviously include here in this conversation. This conversation is on the record. We will first turn to our speakers. But then also go to you the audience for q and a. We really want this to be an interactive debate. So feel free to use the zoom chat function. Ill be closely monitoring that feed and transfer your questions. So we have about 60 minutes left for this conversation. And one of the authors of this report [ audio difficulties ] still on track, and which priorities do you see emerging . Good evening from kiev. Across the floor, let me thank you for the Great Partnership in organizing this event, for your interest in this event. As Group Members met with the secretarygeneral stultenberg to present their ideas and contribution to the nato reflection process 2014, and i think that we are really lucky to have anna fatigua with us today. With regard to ukraine, we are pretty sure that in order to be ambitious, and in order to be comprehensive, nato reflection process 2040 needs to take into account ukraine and georgia. Thats why we at new york center, together with our georgian partners from georgian strategic studies, developed a joint accommodation as our modest contribution to make a reflection process. This accommodations were submitted earlier to members and we are happen kri thy that we cs with them today as well. We believe that most ukraine and georgia fully deserve to find a more prominent place in nato 2040 reflection process. Than in the previous strategic forums. As far as i remember, the previous document made reference to cooperation with Russian Federation 13 times. So i think that it is fundamentally important that natos new strategic document reflect those new realities and the new challenges of Atlantic Security, including the threat imposed by the increasingly aggressive policies of the russian parliament. Lets not forget that when we are talking about ukraine and georgia, we are talking about countries who have double role for the alliance. Let me elaborate on that. Ukraine and georgia prove to be one of the most reliable nato partners for the case. Both countries demonstrate natos recognition of the two countrys contributions to the last operations, as well as a high level of operaability, and also Member States both countries have proven that they can be not only consumers but also contributors to Europe Atlantic security by taking an effective part in their alliance and operations. Ukraine, for example, is the only partner to have actively contributed to all major nato led operations. Secondly, ukraine and georgia are two of the three countries that are currently aspiring to become nato members. Membership in nato is not somebodys fantasy in ukraine. Thats a conscious and responsible choice of our countries. Both ukraine and georgia. For ukraine, integration into nato remains for Foreign Policy and security priority. Which is supported by the political elites and at a level of society in trekt resudirect russian aggression. I would like to underline it is probably the first time in ukraines history that with the change of president and government and the Parliament Last year, the calls of integration has not been challenged. When were talking about nato membership, we are not suggesting anything extraordinary. As you know, the summit declaration states that georgia and ukraine will become nato members and the membership action plan met, which we consider ukraine and georgia as the next logical step in our european integration. So membership action plan is the same in bucharest declaration, is mentioned as the next step for ukraine and georgia to membership. So as a result of reflection process, we expect that nato will stick to its open door policy. That georgia and ukraine should be on the road map to the membership. Among other things, i think its important to mention that this policy, open door policy will encourage georgia and ukraine to take part in the democratic practices and advance the agenda. Because the open door policy remains to be an important incentive and driver for ukrainian and georgia policymakers. It helps keep politicians on track. It helps them to transform our countrys institutions, both politically and militarily. And it is not only in ukraine and georgia, but a major interest to support the reform efforts. By doing so, nato will expand the community of likeminded, stable and predictable democracies. So i think it might just be in na natos interest, as well. We expect georgia and ukraine will be recognized in strategic documents as an integral part of the black sea region. Always strategic location make most ukraine and georgia indispensable arrangement in the region. Initially, in our from our point of view, it can start with a joint threat assessment with participation of georgia and ukraine. The alliance should pay special attention to maintain a sustained presence integration. And last but not least, in our view, nato should identify russia to the main longterm threat to the lives of its partners. Put an equal emphasis on this threat. Georgia and ukrainian indicates law and experience of dealing with the russian warfare can be helpful in identifying and responding to the common threats by the partners. Low intensity conflict in which russia has been involved or which russia has initiated because we should remember russia at the moment is number one war producer of frozen conflicts. So frozen conflicts should be another focus of nato Member States. Russian occupied territories are a convenient place to undermine international law, which involves human rights abuse, which involves smuggling and uncontrolled arms trafficking. I think i will stop here and let the others to elaborate more on our recommendations. Thank you. Thank you very much. I mean, this was a very good kickoff, i would say. And i do appreciate that you underlined ukraines role as a security provider. I any thats a pretty important point. Going back to explain the georgian point of view, i hear her making a plea to better consider the role of countries like georgia and ukraine in the nato 2030 process. She made some points how to do this. So what would be your recommendation from a georgian perspective . Thank you very much. First of all, thanks a lot to the organizers and to our partners for producing this report. Its great, because i actually do see a huge value in hearing the voices from kiev, because if you look at how the realities on the ground, but also the dynamics are changing, i think that the value of the partners will be increasing in the years to come. Because the collective defense is such is going to be a you have to have a wholistic view about the collective defense. So the countries which have been in close cooperation and partnership nowadays and seeing the evolution of this partnership for 30 years and who have been reliable partners throughout this time, you know, which sees the very much an unpredictable environment have been stably democratic i would say. Maybe not consolidated, of course, having flaws. But we still have trying to keep ourselves on track of being democratic. Apart from this, as you have mentioned, we have been contributors to interNational Security. We are small. Georgia is small. Ukraine is bigger than us. But we were trying to punch above our weight, in spite of this. In spite of having the internal problems of our own, i think that georgia and ukraine have made a very serious case about being a contributor and also a credible partner throughout this time. I think that i want to take kind of a Bigger Picture of you right now why i think its a window of opportunity for both sides, for nato, georgia, and ukraine. The region has seen a very dramatic change of the dynamics in the recent weeks i would say for about a month and a half. And we have a very different status quo right now. Many see this as not only a perception level right now, but also on a practical level as a weakness of the west in a wae, or seeing it as being cut out from a region in which it traditi traditionally has always been present. But nowadays, the status quo says something else. And considering that, and considering that georgia and ukraine remain to be staunchly prowestern for quite some time. I think for western ill try to explain the dimensions. I will talk about the strategic dimensions, the military one, but also a value based dimension, which i think is going to be something we have to be thinking about proshgs individualed there is going to be a provided there is going to be a rethinking in washington after the new administration comes in. Some of the appointments to be made are already pretty interesting, because i think there ask going to be a new thinking arising for the region, as well. And with that in mind, i would like to make a few cases now. This is also part of our report, but just being very succinct, i think young democracies like georgia and ukraine definitely deserve to have a better understanding and to have a better i would say traction. Because they are the ones who have proven to continue the democratic trend in the region. Others are looking up at us. Be it belarus, many people are thinking that everything is deadlocked in our region, as well. But then there was a very Interesting Development in armenia. Everyone was thinking thats not going to happen. But most of the times thats happening because they see a very successful or more or less successful example of being present in the vicinity, in the region. So if you have young democracies like georgia and ukraine being given the chance through the open door policy, and i would like to agree that the open door policy definitely shouldnt be the case. They should come a very clear political message. We do have a clear political message for quite some time, but that should reflect by more practical means. Frankly speaking, no one in the region has a problem with nato. It is very much fine. We have very good initiatives. Its been continuing for quite some time. When it comes to the political side, there is still understanding that kind of lags behind. And thats also an opportunity for nato, because open door policy, as you rightly mentioned, gives relevance to nato. Nato has to find itself to be relevant. I think that will give a much more than just military consideration but will give them the power of the value making that they can have. I think thats a very important element. When it comes to strategic considerations, i would say georgia and ukraine are making some things that are nottis d s indispensable. We are transit routes, we are infrastructure hubs, and we also help europe and others trying to get away from the russian cloud. And to have a free hand. Th in the years to come, well sea that other players are going to be entering the region. Right now, it has been more cautious from some of them, but definitely china is having plans to get more active with bri. They are thinking about various projects. It has been a bit slow due to some reasons, but we can talk about that, as well. There is definitely going to be a turkey condition, which is a member of nato, but with increasingly independent policies. Thats a very thats a new factor, which all of us have to be thinking about. Georgia is a partner, and georgia is an ally of turkey and continuing for quite some time. And then we have russia. Russia always has socalled special understanding of where they are, why they are in the region. So considering all of this, i think the strategics of tin collusion of georgia and ukraine, and then kind of a new wave of political extension is going to be extremely important. Of course, there is a greater value to nato, because nato has states in the black sea. It has been recognized on the previous summits in subsequent summits, and that has been the reality. Everyone understands that. Exactly. Let me ask you to round up here, because we want other speakers to intervene. Just two more minutes. One minute. 30 seconds. Okay. So georgia and ukraine are indispensable when it comes to the plans to this southeastern alliance. I think thats extremely important. And there are different ways, and i can talk later about the initiatives. Sorry for being late. Well definitely get back to some of your points. We want interactive, crisp debate. Lets just have a time for everyone to intervene. Ms. Fatiga, thank you very much for joining us. I know that you presented some of your conclusions today with the nato leadership. Would love to hear your insights there. But let me give you perhaps this question, if i may. Almost ten years ago, nato also had a group of experts, which was then chaired by madeiline albright, if im not mistaken. Their job was to advise on nato 2020. So i remember the big debate back then is whether nato should be an aliliance that engaged globally or whether natos job was only to defend article v territory. Back in 2010, the answer was clear, lets focus on article v territory. Do you think that the debate today is different . Because if nato is to strengthen its partnerships, it needs to be outward looking. Ill answer your question. I owe you one point of explanation. Yes, today we were able just several minutes ago, we were able to finally submit the report to nato secretarygeneral. Unfortunately, for our meeting today, we are still obliged to keep silence until obliged by nato foreign ministers, to keep silent until their debate that is to happen on december 1st. And then our report is to become public. So please maintain some patience. Yet i think that im so much intertwined in the affairs of georgia and ukraine and particular particularly both countries to nato, th. I still remember my visit to ukraine, it was august of 2006, and standing together with the foreign minister, in front of a panel of journalists, we were debating ukraines eventual integration of organizations like eu, and there were remarks about nato, as well. I would say that the spirit about nato was rather negative. Everybody was afraid of speaking openly about nato. Although, i know that the will was already there at that time. Surely, the last six years, and ukraine fighting for territory integrity, made a change within public perception. Also engagement of ukraine in between with new accession ukraine signed a Framework Agreement with eu as well, and i in my previous capacity, i met both ukrainian and georgian soldiers in many nations, all over the world. So truly i can prove with my own eyes that both countries are really providers of security for all eu Member States and nato allies. That is true. That is true. So both countries are extremely important. Same with georgia. I still remember talking to numerous representatives of nato allies who used to confirm that georgian population is most probably the most pronanato in the world. Now we tend to complain about public support and necessity to extend Public Diplomacy programs to ensure, to convince our respective populations about value, benefits, value and a contribution of nato to world security. While in georgia, it is evidence, the major part of society, things like this. It is now very positive in both countries. I still remember another event. Before the nato summit, i was at that time head of the late preside president s chancelary, and i was sent back in to consult with some allies. In particular, those who were reluctant about both countries obtain i obtaining unfortunately, the final and i participated in bucharest as well. So i remember debates and all engagements. Actually, i have everything just before my eyes. Those chambers that were then and discussions at that time. Yes, it was a promise in bucharest, and i think it is still got it to that both countries will become nato members. And later on, i remember during the nato parliamentary assembly. I think it was dubrovnik at that time that replied very clearly that yes, this promise stands. We have to repeat this, those of us who witnessed all those things. I hope that the developments of nato, because open door policy is still valid, acknowledged by all of us. We are able to, despite tensions, and sometimes very difficult debates. We remain united. And that contemporary message, i think, about nato. We have been the most successful ally. We want to stay like this, and both georgia and ukraine are in my private opinion, which is what im entitled to say now, are very important factors to keep this position of nato. Thank you. Thank you very much for your encouraging words. Im sure its just important that personalities like yours express these opinions. Its most useful. Let me turn to our last but not least speaker. We were informed the deputy primary held an important meeting. But you are the Senior Advisor to the deputy Prime Minister. So you are deeply involved in the policymaking and agenda setting. So daria, thank you for joining us. I wanted to poke your brain with a small question here. Weve just been hearing that ukraine and georgia, we are security providers, as well as. And nato and the alliance will benefit from our potential membership. My question to you is that membership is not that easy to its not based on quantitytive measures. Its also a political decision. How do we deal with this need for a political, brave decision . Thank you, thank you a lot. And first of all, let me express our apologies for not having today the deputy Prime Minister. She was really looking forward to this event. But unfortunately, due to some present situations, she had to be at one very important meeting. We are very sorry for this, but i am very grateful to all of you, to all the experts, especially to the German Marshall Fund for organizing this event. And especially we are grateful to experts who provide their recommendations and very solid analysis of ukraine and georgia contribution to the Atlantic Security. And their role in the euro Atlantic Security architecture. So its very important for us, for the government, and i hope that nato and Reflection Group also will take into account their recommendations. I know that the Ukrainian Center of defense studies also admitted their recommendations of ukraine. So we are really lucky to have such strong involvement of experts in this process. As for your question, yesterday we had a very good discussion also recognized by the new york center. And we talked about nato, and how ukraine can take full advantage of this program. And one of them, foreign partners, said that we should talk not only about military but also a political one. So to make our societies, make ukraine like politically the same as the nato members. And i think when we will have this like a common understanding, then ukraine also underwent this important political reforms that ukraine achieve a rule of law. Then there will be no station around the question of membership. So its a matter of time and now we should work on our task, and i would like to make a few points, if i may, about like ukrai ukraines vision from the government about the future, our role in euroAtlantic Security and about the reflection process. Sure, sure. We are on the same page with the experts. So our vision very close, but i would like to express a few points. First of all, that ukraine participation in that reflection process is a good demonstration of our support and it also showed that ukraine is important from that development in the next ten years. We should always keep this in mind. Ukraine is a part of European Security. So its logical that ukraine takes part, i invited to take part in this process. We expect that nato has a strong commitment to open door policy. Im very sorry, just im sorry, i can make a short break, because i think the deputy Prime Minister will join us. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, while you are securing the participation of the deputy Prime Minister, well get to some questions. We have some comments here on what was said. And let me perhaps take some observations of our viewers. Some viewers are referring also to the role that russia flays in this whole equation. We have a comment here, a retired u. S. Ambassador who says that president george bush back then pledged to president gorbachev that nato will not come to the russian border. Is there any indication that this policy has changed . That is one question we got. But we also have viewers who say that perhaps we went too fast. The European Union and nato with our integration towards the east. And not understanding moscow sensitivities. So these are two comments that we received from the audience. I just want to ask our panel your opinion on this. Obviously, nato has a relationship with ukraine and with georgia. Should we consider at all what russia means for this . Perhaps you first. Thank you. Just a brief comment on the question on gorbachev, because actually, gorbachev himself said in 2014, i believe, that there is an old pledge from nato Member States, americans and british. I think there is nothing to discuss here actually. And as far as i remember, what the germans, americans, and british the germans, americans, british and french did agree back in 1990 was that there would be no deployment of nonnato forces on the territory of the common gdr. So that was like informal agreement or Something Like that. But there was not a pledge. I think its important to comment on that, because i knowi that this narrative is very popular. Acting, i see that ambassador alexander is reacting on our chat, saying that gorbachev himself denies that. Yeah, yeah, thats what i said. It was in 2014. I think he was interviewed by german media, i dont remember, someone in the western media. He said there was no such a pledge. And on russia, our position is clear. Russia should not have rights on our ability to allow integration to nato. And some there are some do concerns inn some nato Member States. We understand those concerns. They dont want to make any move that could like provoke russia or Something Like that. And we hold similar discussionsy for example, during the last couple of years, when ukraine lo applied for defense opportunityr partners, and there are also ta, concerns and some Member States were quite reluctant to grant ukraines status, splabing it ol could e destabilize the region d it could provoke russia. But ukraine was granted the status and nothing happened, because we were quite consistent. We explained why we needed that, why its important for ukraine, for nato, for our relations. And we really needed that, you know, a step forward, because sometimes we have the feeling that our relations is like a stationary bike. When we set a december taistanc time, we are wasting a lot of our efforts, and we are not moving forward, you know . Thats why this eop was really important, and i think now we have to focus all our energy and our resources in order to get membership action plan. Especially for georgia, because our position here and my position, and i know that many u ukrainians share this position, that georgia, you know, well deserved that. So they made a lot of progress in terms ofpr the military forcd andd mill staitary institutions. So yes, russia should not have a say in that. I really appreciate you at rs stress the fact that those concerns that russia would be sa agitated, i have no concerns at all, nothing happens. So for those of you Member States that are concerned, i mean, from your experience, how do we deal with those Member States that have concerns without with no groundings apparently . Just to continue with the question, that was posed beforei because naturally it is related. Nato is a defensive alliance. Be i will havenefici to repeat tha. Nato has never been under any question mark. Be want so those sensitivities, i dont really see that being a, i thin legitimate sensitivity. Because they dont seek out the outcome there, with which its y going to be n beneficial for alh they have their world view, and they want everyone else to compare withth that. And also i agree about the third party. I think deput thats extremely important. If that principle stands, i think we are going to be undermining many important pillars of why nato exists and a why themo states are attracted. When it comes to this sorry to intervene, but i see the deputy Prime Minister just joined from the car and she has a limited amount of time. So thanks for joining us. Please enjoy your car rides. De its really wonderful that you are with us for this amount of time. We have a very simple question for you, deputy Prime Minister. Is ukraines nato integration on track and what are the priorities for your country on this track . Thank you so much. Im so really sorry that i didnt manage to join earlier, e but we had just had the sion w discussion withit the president n eop and other staff. So i decided that i would be late but still i will deliver oo the results where were speaking. So indeed, this question is the easy one, because things are very well on track. Analys ukraine in regard to the eob tia statutes with regard to nato, we made the analysis and put down the road map of our participation and input into that and the president is about to sign it. But also were very much into high political, as well as broade ukraine and militaryr forces ha been extremely diverse and developing and our strategies this is particularly not about only the new administration will show the leadership on the global arena [inaudible] i think we have a slight connection problem but lets give it one second, maybe it will come back. Okay, in the meantime maybe if the deputy Prime Minister comes back, we will return to her. Okay. Particularly in terms of nato welcome back. [laughs] just to cut a long story short unless the connection would be bad again. [inaudible] on the reflection process, and so, internally we see the very good speed of transformations on nato standards. On the legislation and security and offense sector. And basically [inaudible] myself witnessing this priority because im in charge, the deputy in charge of your integration. And actually the commission coordinating all the issues and we are here to speed the process is up, and i think it is happening. Deputy Prime Minister thank you very much for those remarks, your connection is tightly unstable. So i think we will just have you enjoy your car right for now until most grateful you took the time to join for those remarks, i think your message was indeed very well received. So thank you very much, and we wish you a very pleasant evening. Let me get back to you perhaps. The deputy Prime Minister here has said look, ukraine is on track, we are modernizing, we are in the oh you. And previously we also heard that all these achievements have not triggered these much reactions that we were from russia. So how do we know go further to from ethiopia to map, to member,. What should be the plan here . I think that the most important is the political will and understanding the importance of both countries. Georgia and the ukraine as our partners in particular with the quite complicated, international environment. I think that while we acknowledge both countries being on the truck, it is also incentive for both governments and respected societies to continue reforms. That is extremely important to overcome tensions to have to have broad support trying to overcome divisions the reflection of the corner flex and process is dedicated at the very beginning during the experts deliberations to enhancing political role of nato so i think that those issues have to also taken into account both you i stress this we maintain the process of cooperation between both organizations and to both organizations georgia and ukraine are important extremely important in terms of they are, associated countries, with strong voices to make special efforts to bring them even closer and in particular it is quite loud in my region central and eastern europe. And within nato i share the view that was presented by that we have geopolitical i would say changes of the picture as well. And we have to take this into account and bring countries they are the most stable in the neighborhood although young demi young democracies not young historically but in terms of recent reforms. We want to have yes that is true absolutely we tend to repeat third countries they should not have the detailed right both you and nato extended friendly, and to russia numerous times actually it was russias choice to pursue a rather aggressive policy. We have to simply to aid this into account. Maintaining of course channels of communication with the kremlin as well. Thank you. Thank you miss let me get back to you. You know apologies again to cut you short, a few minutes ago. So miss mentions the need for a political will if we need to move forward so theres a question from that there was transferred to you and he is asking what can georgia and ukraine due to persuade the western positions we need to ratify andy membership. How can we change the views according to your opinion . Well im first of all i think that we have to continue being reliable thats extremely important and i explained what i mean by being reliable it means we have to be a reliable democracy. We have to be then i think that the value of being trustworthy the value of being a younger democracy which actually continues to be successful. Which has institutions that practical die mentioned the physical dimensions its fueling. We have to show that we are on the state that that is power mount. We have to be able to graduate from any of these functionalities that is associated with this part of the media. And as we continue, i think we have to do it forminded. And im pretty sure that when the time comes, if we continue on that truck. A window of opportunity that might be of some bigger change in the broader picture we have become it might be a different, the other thing i think that the governments here in georgia, and also in here have to understand that they also have hello . And that would very much. Can you hear me . We hear you again, thank you very much. Sorry, of course we also have to continue to be knocking on the door i think its extremely important to continue to knock on the door to express the will which is uninterrupted that we want to be nato members. We have to continue to be part of the international missions, we have to continue to be contributing to any mission which we think that our participation and value to. And i think there is also a significant importance to the politicians. I think we have to be explaining in the major capitals what we mean by our volume and how that is going to come forward. And im pretty sure that you know, there was skepticism with any type of you are nato i talked to a lot of people in the politic countries and they were telling me stories that they dont want no one even wanted to air from the beginning. That it was announced friday in the beginning so i actually do believe that we can equally continue that approach continue doing our job of being record minded there is definitely going to be the time when theyre simply not going to be enough a lot of opportunities to refuse that i am talking about when it comes to the changes. I think the value will be seen in where we are and how we have behaved so far. Thank you. Let me get back to you for a second. Thank you, let me get back to you first. We have a question, which i would like to transfer to you who is a fellow in italy. She is basically asking what do you see some future cooperation between nato and the eu, European Partnership initiative . In the areas that we are discussing today shes also arguing that reforms taken in the ukraine and other countries made be regressing and whether this regression of reforms will impact any possibility for nato membership . On the reforms i think we have some signs of setback on dimensions. And in some directions and but please do not forget that ukraine probably is the one country in the world now which is implemented their reforms. Which has improved its democracy while being attacked. While waging a war we still have the only war in europe which is the russian war against ukraine and its not a frozen conflict unfortunately and it is still like a war. Thats why we are even in terms of reforms we have a lot of signs that setback on some reforms are lead linked to some. Pro Russian Politicians or political forces, who supported by russia. And who are promoting nationality. And i would suggest carefully to assess all of those setbacks. Because some of the processes in some of the science you know show us that you know, that they are elements actually of hybrid warfare against ukraine. And recently also we also witnessed elements of warfare against the ukraine. Some elements of warfare and this is why the picture is what i had liked to say the picture is quite complicated. Its not like black and white you know. Is it ukraine is it a oppressed . There are some improvements and some probably some signs of setback on some other trucks the situation is really complicated. And still ukraine is moving forward, and thats why its very important to have the european channel we just see that this membership perspective and to empower by this membership perspective our progress, then reform minded politicians and opinion leaders. Thank you very much, unfortunately were nearing the end of this event. So perhaps i would like to turn my final comments to the deputy Prime Minister. Who has rejoined us for maybe a final comment, before we close. You have a foot both in the European Union, as you are now part of the nato reflection process as well to see any opportunities for you nato cooperation . To strengthen the resilience of countries like georgia, and the ukraine. I think that both countries both organizations are very much focused on cooperation with georgia and ukraine. And there is very strong support for both countries. I just wanted very briefly to comment on earlier. A questions, or a remark about reforms in both countries. We have to remember how difficult it was to implement reforms, in my region, obviously, after changes in poland in 1989 and other countries slightly leader. But just a few months, later. In peaceful times the same happened to western allies and western eu members. After a crisis in 2008, and now trying to imagine implementing very harsh and very challenging reforms in this same time. Defending territorial integrity. In cases of the ukraine, very open conflict. But we have to remember about polarization in georgia as well. Actually, the absorption of territory goes, on a daily basis. So we have to take this into account. This is extremely difficult to maintain public support, for harsh reform. And actually it is our role to stand by them and to support them. Yes i can imagine cooperation and actuality, i see this will to cooperate. Both within the eu and on those issues. Thank you. Thank you very much for this final words on your behalf. Thanks for rejoining us, the whole event we have been i think confirming that georgian bay ukraine are also security providers. Not just consumers, that you are making great steps forward, towards your nato integration. But also even though some Member States and some capitals may still need some convincing that membership is a good thing for the allies as a whole. So we have viewers on this event, covering all of europe and north america. What would be your final message to our viewers, that the Prime Minister . Regarding today. Thank you, so at least a couple of more remarks about the vision of ukraine from the perspective of the contributor to the global security. Indeed, i think that this is the core of the positive agenda. That ukraine is bringing towards you atlantic integration. And basically it was a very important question, and remarks as regard, the reforms agenda and you are asking about whether things are well on track. But lets recollected our memory and the gear 2019, when the president and the parliament were reelected. We expected four new faces, for a fresh agenda, but still, now when we are speaking about the speed and the quality of reforms. We are expecting for ukrainian politicians to smile, unanimously, and say things are going well on track. And then nothing is happening. So the reality is totally different. So of course, there is a huge informational space, and many things are happening at the same time. So you may not always see the huge reforms and transformations which are taking place. This is the reform, the banking reform, president has adopted the National Security strategy. Where atlantic integration and resilience based on nato standards is the core and the core principle of the strategy. We adopted the law on the defense procurement, about to adopt the law on security service. So these are the things which were, like went unnoticed basically given in our country. Because this is something positive, which is not very good and nice for the youth. But im really grateful that partner see it, and this progress allows us to bring into the higher political level of the capitals, another quality of discussion. And im really grateful that anna confirms that there is the need to have the highest political dialog. The progress we show, the commitment we show, and the personal commitment of the president he has also confirmed his personal exchanges and formal exchanges with the secretary general as regards a lot of things that brings us enables up to think more strategically, and ukraine sees that we can contribute not only with the issues related to building a stronger realistically resilience of the allies. But we could be a strong country contributors to the whole black sea region. In terms of the security, and i think that this is something which is not lacking. In terms of the broader agenda, and addressing the challenges and of course, we are putting a lot of efforts to the new u. S. Administration, to be fully formed by january 2021. And i think that the global role, that the u. S. Is about the play into the international arena, will bring more ukraine to this agenda. And will bring more inspiration to consider ukraine as the leader and contributor to the security and transformations of the region. So just to finish, is to say that im really happy that those partners who support ukraine, they see the progress, and they see the transformations. And we are very much committed to deliver on that. Just to name the issues. Do you see me . We do see you. Yes. So, im really happy that were having this discussion right in the middle of the reflect nato process which hopefully will show us how does allies see the materialization of the open door policy. So looking forward to that, and working hard for that. Thank you, thank you for this discussion and greetings to georgia and colleagues. We have so much in common to discuss on a daily basis. Thank you very much for your final words, and a touch of optimism is always a good moment to finish a discussion i believe. So on the snow, this is the end of our event, i regret for our viewers that there is no more time for questions, but i do congratulate all of you on the issues that you did raise. I know that i had a lot of fun discussing this issue, theres definitely more need for debate, and around this topic. We will definitely do that, its definitely not the last event that we will organize around this issue. Let me also thank again, our partners here we are very greatly grateful for your support. Thank you all for joining us, i also wish to thank my own team. Especially put trees who has been very instrumental in bringing us together. I do wish everyone a very good evening, or a very good afternoon. Thank you, and i will see you the next time. Youre watching cspan 3, youre unfiltered view of government, created by americas Cable Television companies as a public service. And brought to you today by your television provider. 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