Transcripts For CSPAN3 The 20240704

Heidi totty and a masters degree from the university of louisianamonroe to which matt says they beat alabama one time some time. So anyways, matts been a park ranger at Petersburg National battlefield, where matt and i first met and worked as a park rangers. Many, many many years ago. Hes worked at natchez vicksburg, manassas and gettysburg. Hes going to tackle the big elephant in room about gettysburg versus which one of these two battles is he considered being a native mississippian and, having worked at both parks, what is he considered be the biggest turning point as a gaithersburg or is it vicksburg . So i will matt get up here and explain. So Matt Atkinson can. Help. Thats what it is. So understand all had a row last night about something right there. Right. The most important battle. Top battles in the American Civil War and gettysburg was left off. Can you believe that . I want to tell you a quick story was invited down to richmond roundtable and we were at the willow oaks club because thats what i rate. We have virginia ham. Thats only time they go out there, i think. But anyway i was having a great and i was in richmond and obviously burke lives there. Burke dunkle lives there who did the top ten last night at and he didnt show to my program so here is what you call poetic justice. A slight i have not forgotten right there. The top ten battles in the in the american war im sure he knows more about the civil war and i do so im sure he didnt leave gettysburg off unintentionally. What is most important battle to matt. I think that would be the relevant question. The most important battle in the civil war to Matt Atkinson is. Wherever Matt Atkinson happens, be working. Maybe, maybe. Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah, i heard. I would also like to say. To acknowledge the other elephant in the room. And i tell people this gettysburg a lot and caution them if you if you getting into the civil war, if you go to other civil war sites, dont go a Visitor Center and tell them that youve been to gettysburg. Dont tell a park ranger that because they dont want to hear that. All right. Because theyve heard that ive worked at other sites and heard it multiple times, sometimes same time, same day, multiple times. Right there there. I would like to say, though, there are a lot of obviously this emerging civil war conference and so forth. And we have a plethora and that bad for mississippi Public Education right there. A plethora of subjects back there from which for you to choose choose from books etc. Right here and. What is the most important point . I, i could make this lecture. Ladies and gentlemen i mean, just pick two battles and i could have put it up there, you know, but i mean, the list could go on and on. We could put chickamauga up there. We could put we could put chancellorsville all up there. We could put spots of spots sylvania wilderness. I was driving down here and the lady that talks to me on the phone that tells me where to go from time to time. Shes having me drive know past grants headquarters in 1864 and im like, oh is really cool. She must really know what i like. You know, im down here, but i mean, you could argue, you could really argue. I mean, what is the turning point is a big turning point. But let me start by saying that that i do recognize that. Okay, there are other subjects and theres a lot of subjects especially in the western theater. When i say that, i mean mississippi tennessee, those type of even west of the mississippi, theres lot of subjects that are uncovered out there. But the problem is, you know and im supposed to and i sincerely thank the of acw christmas koski for his unbreak idol patience with me in writing this on vicksburg which is almost two 500 words right now. If i remember correctly, maybe about 2000. I dont, but you know where, if and when, if and when that book is ever published, which will obviously be the masterwork on vicksburg. Right there. The problem with it is, though and gentlemen, this does stare this in the face, not going to sell. I didnt say chris right there, but why is it not going to sell because people do not in the same number. Subjects on the western theater that they do on the Eastern Theater, if i could if i could slap on there like vicksburg the gettysburg of the west. Honey, you know, i would i would like i would sell 10,000 more copies about it. So the first thing i want to do when we in stepping off into this mine field right here, is having everything that i have. I hate to let the elephant in the room, but i dont think really the question is which is more important gettysburg and vicksburg i think i think the relevant question is what what i ponder is why is gettysburg are bigger than vicksburg . Why is that . I mean is anybody really going to debate that with i mean, yeah, were like, yeah, we debate that. But in the american psyche, i dont think theres any debate that gettysburg bigger than vicksburg. Now why is that and something i dont know if im gonna be able to answer today, but well try first things first. Quick overview of both campaigns. I know obviously youre at this conference and you want to be at this conference. If you didnt like the civil war, the gettysburg really doesnt need any in reduction. It is the culmination of all robert e lee battles. Ill just say when i drive through the Fredericksburg Spotsylvania battlefield system, im always thinking how it all interrelate. So im a huge fan of robert e lee myself, and these four battlefields which surround this area would be the are the mecca for me. You know as well as the rangers they like to talk about other too you know from time to. But what is the point. My point is what is the point of robert e lee fighting all these battles in the fredericksburg area . The point is, ladies and gentlemen, hes trying to win the war. And how do you win the war . Well, you could. And robert e lee if youre going to win it through military, then you probably have to win a decisive battle. Virginia saw, or at least a victory on northern soul robert e lee well knows that he can keep whipping the yankees. And i use that word down still in Northern Virginia can keep whipping the yankees time and time. But what does it solve . What does it accomplish right there . And so after the battle of chancellorsville in may of 63, robert e lee is going to get the opportunity he has initiative and he is going to use that opportunity to invade the north. This this map right here does not have mountain ranges on it, but basically swings to the west. He uses the mountain ranges as cover right here. And it is a perfect or avenue open to the north. Once he gets into pennsylvania, he splits his forces up the army is starting to dovetail tail kind of behind him, if you will but theyre not exactly flush with as he comes up and on night of june 28th everything changes for him in little town which if youve got good eyes you can see right over here called Chambers Burg when and show you how history can change on one dime when a scout or spy if you will name patterson. In the very beginning of the movie there in a picket post. I only do like cheesy gettysburg the whole program i did like Robert Duvall better though i must machines got his moment so i when they cheer him on the minute then a few. The chambersburg is where harrison is going to come in and he drops a bomb on robert e lee right gap band. No, no, no. Yall never heard that. Okay, so thats probably what he was playing. Look it up, wicker pta. Itll be on there. Chambersburg harrison comes in and he tells robert e lee, hey, union army. Not in virginia, buddy. Its in maryland. And as the crow, its not that far away from you. The important thing to remember and if i could teach you one thing which this lecture is not about the campaign or any campaign by any stretch of the imagination, but one thing quick, quick, little hitter free because you all pay, which ill pay. Get here anyway. 100 130. Was that what was that Early Bird Special this year. 130 okay, so its worth all 130 bucks right here. All. You of match. Com for 79, 95. But we have in hamburg. Hotdogs. Harrison the scout tells robert e lee that the union army is not north. What most people miss is he robert e lee the union army is moving west and so everything on gettysburg is based off that false intelligence right there. Robert e lee believes the union army is moving behind it, not talking. And so lee calls junction of his forces at gettysburg in order to try to keep the union army on the eastern side, the washington side of the mountains makes right. How about a round of applause . Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. And again, it wasnt too good, was it, greg . And we will it right there. Now, here we have the first day, ladies and gentlemen and i like to say once again, this is not an overview of the battle or any stretch of the imagination. But i like to say that the battle against ends up, which is no big surprise to of you, that study of the battle in a confederate victory. What i like to say summation of the first day, though, is i that is the worst thing that could have possibly happen to robert e lee. Why is that . Because robert lee wins the first day and it sets up the next two days. If he lost the first day he might have got away from it, but he wins. And when youre winning. I dont know if youve ever pulled the slot machine before, but when youre but when youre winning, its fun. You know, when its not its not. Anyway, they chase the forces back through there and then robert e lee, you know, renews the offensive. The next day on second day, he ends up attacking the end of the union line. Places like peach orchard, devils in Little Round Top places that youve all heard of are going to be written into the American History right there. And he comes this close. A couple breaks here. A couple of breaks, you know, like a football game. He might have had a little bit more success, but the union army is fighting hard. I think theyre fighting a lot harder than the confederates estimated that they would in basically the union army holds off on the third day robert e lee. This decides to its you know fourth down and one with 2 seconds left on the clock and he decides to punch it up the gut and we all how that worked out that is known as picketts charge. But it has the american imagination when you talk about the when i talk about the overall subject of versus vicksburg, obviously vicksburg does not have a picketts charge and you like if this is the proper word for if you like the romance of war. I mean how much grander does it get than charge . I cant tell you how times as a boy in mississippi, as where you are you illiterate people over here, how many times in my parents pasture that i walked across the the terrain with my little toy musket and the little rebel flag that the ole miss cheerleaders gave me and i was reenacting picketts charge because thats captured my imagination right there. It was the seminal moment, and i did. I hadnt even read William Faulkner yet. But it ends in defeat. It is a huge debacle ill say that with obviously having read about battle of it, its a bad mistake and it really cant be. I mean, you can all i can offer a whole hours worth of excuses on why i did it but i cant really justify it in the end. Robert ely, if he ran out of options, would hit you head on and we have some books on the seven Days Campaign back there. We some books on the battle of the wilderness. Look at the pattern in robert e lee. He hit head on if he runs out of options. And thats just picketts charge, thats robert e lee. So union army pursues, the confederate army. And heres one of the great what ifs of the American Civil War. I wish i had more time to spend it, but they bottle up the union army, ends up having an opportunity to bottle up lees army next to the Potomac River over here to the left, around a place called williamsport, maryland. And george made you think that. George meade is just one. The battle of gettysburg. I mean, the man was placed in command on june 28th, three days before the battle, and then he goes up against arguably what i dont know whos big right now. Joe montana. So hes still around. Not funny. Okay. How about archie manning. Uh, Southern Miss guy, get bag over there. I see. So i mean, george made. I think hes exhaust it and. Hes. Hes just trying to shoo those old crabs across the river. Hes happy. Say, only go off. Hell go. But has an opportunity to win the war right here. Should he attack. And if theres one thing i try to always to, you know put a little caveat, something you can learn or something. And i want to tell you this little story. Some of you know it. Some of you dont. In the aftermath of the campaign at gettysburg ladies and gentlemen, lincoln was furious. Why . Because he was writing george meade and saying, destroy, destroy him in the war. Right. When lincoln out that meade has allowed lee to escape. He writes a letter and is furious. When lincoln assassinated a couple of years later. That letter is found in his desk and lincoln wrote on the outside it Something Like letter, not sent. And i have remembered that i just got my 20 year pen in the government and my supervisor came wearing it on my uniform and my supervisor told me to take it off. And i said to him, would you send it to me if you want me to wear it . But one thing that lincoln has taught me right here is that i cannot tell how many times i have an email. Try it yourself. And then waited 24 hours before i sent it. And most of the time i send it. Thats what Abraham Lincoln taught me. Now, what about general made general meigs happy with the campaign . He thinks its a brilliant success. He write in his official report. It may be briefly in the defeat of the enemy at gettysburg, his compulsory evacuation of pennsylvania, maryland, comma, and withdrawal from the upper valley of the shenandoah comma. And in the capture of three guns, 41 stands and 13,621 prisoners, 24,000 not semicolon, 24,978 smaller arms were collected on the battlefield. He finds it to be a rounding success. Lincoln dont feel that way. Theres a whole lot of color in between here and grant to the east and so forth. And i could do the whole program on this. But suffice it to say, i do believe that the maids failure to attack williamsport is the start of his demise. You can add in bristow station a little shout out to rob lawson right there, the bristow. Thank you. Thank you very much. You buy the book in the back if youd like. Cant remember what the name of its called, but hes back there ready to sign right now. Cash or check. That made has won the battle. Gettysburg. Now were flipping away. I can tell you the mileage right now, because i just drove it last week. I drove hundred and 50 miles all the way down houston, mississippi. I got five miles within my house right there. I got two twin girls screaming in the back and one boy thats really tired. And im doing 79 miles an hour down highway eight and five miles from the house and up top of hill. And theyre greeting me. Was the mississippi Highway Patrol patrol. So i got pulled over and i said to him. I said i said to i said, you know, i made a detour to montgomery. I went to see Hank Williams, cadillac because ive been telling my girls about my little three year old, about Hank Williams and how they know the story of how he drank too much beer and died in the back of that cadillac and everything. So we went by the grave and everything. So hes im trying to get out of this ticket. So i reach inside my pocket to pull out this Hank Williams Museum Ticket and i hand it to him. He goes, whats this for . You know, hes got the flat hat on and leaning over the window. Im like, im to say a man, ive been Hank Williams museum. He goes, ill be right back. I go, thats the best youve heard all day. It didnt work. Youd like see it . Do youd like to see it is in my car now. There. Hadnt worked out so. You know if if you think about vicksburg if you think about vicksburg or i dont know if this dot is going to show up but probably be better for those in the back where you see the big words Confederate States of america the big which you see states that is where vicksburg, mississippi is. And in a nutshell ladies and gentlemen, vicksburg mississippi becomes the last confederate stronghold. The small shout out to port hudson, the last confederate stronghold on the Mississippi River, the commanders, commander, chiefs, i should say, Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln put a higher priority. Oh, vicksburg, you got remember that vicksburg is daviss backyard. I mean, this is the hometown, folks. So hes obviously very familiar, referred to it as the nail head that the souths two halves together. Abraham lincoln said, see a lot of land these fellows hold, of which vicksburg is the key. The war can never be brought to close until that key is in our pocket. Now, what that ends up doing, and i once again we could do multiple lectures on campaigns on vicksburg, right here there are a lot of failed attempts to take vicksburg. In fact, my masters thesis from the school beat alabama right there wrote a were not at anybodys funeral. You know got in trouble about that comment at look it up. My thesis was own the battle in Chickasaw Bayou which was one of the failed attempts right there and if i ever get around to it ill ill publish too one time my mother has a copy thank thank you very much. She says hello, by the way. She just texted i say she thinks that our name it dead yankees in a swamp. See, i knew that joke would go over well, because i know my crowd and its all about kay blessed kay are equals. I am so. But youll never figure that one out. If you look at this. Right here ladies and yeoman heres campaign of vicksburg. General grant, if you if you watch it unfold it makes a lot sense. But in double quick time, general grant actually starts on louisiana side. He cant his ultimate objective is to get to high and dry ground behind vicksburg. So how do you do that . What most people fail to recognize is the Mississippi River is to the west of vicksburg, the big black is to the south. And to the east of vicksburg, and then you have the yazoo river, which is to the north. So that thats a huge problem for grant to overcome right there. So what ends up doing, long story short, is he has the gunboats run past the city here and his army marches down the louisiana side and rendezvous with the union fleet. They cross over the Mississippi River at a place called brewin iceberg, which is the largest Amphibious Landing of u. S. Forces up until, i believe, dday or maybe north africa, maybe out of that off a little bit. But until world two in any way, he ends up fighting five battles, the first one at port gibson, a couple of later at the battle, raymond battle of jackson oh to back a little bit. The battle of raymond, if you ever get there. Im not saying you have to make a trip just to to raymond, but it is the only battlefield in the country that has cannon for every gun that was historically on the battlefield. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thats true. Story. Battle of jackson. What is grants ultimate directive, though . It is to the railroad between jackson and vicksburg, and it doesnt really matter where he breaks it. So he breaks it at jackson. He marches back toward the west. He ends up the confederate garrison at a place called Champion Hill. Its a battle which is roughly around 70,000 men. It totters back forth all day. And it ends up general grants career tottering with. It ends up to be a Decisive Union victory in the end. And they drive the confederates back and is nothing but a matter of time there. They fight a rearguard action, a black river, and then pemberton, in all of his infinite wisdom, gets himself bottled up inside the city after that, it boils down to a siege, which i think is is very interesting within its own right. Youre talking about a union, a field army having to convert themselves into engineers. And when the siege starts general grant has within his army entire army of 42,000, he has three engineers. These farm boys from illinois and indian and all the west out there have to how to be engineers and they a darn good job they start 13 approaches toward the toward the confederate works and as grant say in his memoirs theyre going to out camp the enemy for 47 days. Thats going to end resulting ladies and gentlemen in the surrender of the city. And with that comes. 29,500 confederate soldiers who are to be stacking arms out an entire confederate is taken off the board. In addition, the federals themselves in possession of 172 pieces of artillery, none of which breaks down, and 93 field pieces and 69 siege guns, 38,000 artillery projectiles, £58,000 of black powder, and 4800 artillery cartridges. In addition, since were all friends, might add that they got 50,000 small arms, mostly in fields, along with 600,000 rounds of ammunition and hundred and 50,000 percussion caps. Quite a haul to say the least. So quick overview. Gettysburg vicksburg huh . Which is more . How are you going to wrestle with this question. Eliminate that cool, refreshing drink. Hmm. I got it. Thats pretty tired. I tell you. 430, you get some tart lemonade around here . I put some more ice in that. Too. I told you you should have paid attention to me when i came in. So if you think about it, ladies and gentlemen, if you go back. If you go back and you about it, what is bigger in the American Mind as far as gettysburg and vicksburg . You know, how how do you tackle this how do how do you wrap your around a subject which is basically subjective . Couple quotes for you George Templeton strong. I would write on july 5th and sixth that a memorable day his diary even even should glorious news prove to be but half true tidings from gettysburg have been arriving in fragmentary installments but with a steady crescendo tour. Complete, overwhelming victory. July six. The results of this victory are priceless. The charm of robert lees invincible city is broken. The army. The potomac has at last found a general can handle it and has stood nobly up to its terrible work in spite its long, disheartening list of hard failures. Confederate confederacy side john b jones, who i might add in the fifth grade, i want you to know that i actually slogged my way his entire diary. Yes. And i look back on that and wonder why havent read that again july 8th. We have sad tidings from the west. General johnson telegraphs from jackson, mississippi that vicksburg capitulates on the fourth instant. This is a terrible blow and has produced much despondency. If lee falls back again, it will be the darkest day for the confederacy we have seen yet. So Jones Richmond is learning about vicksburg before they do gettysburg. Interesting have how information is traveling henry adams would write to his father who is the minister to Great Britain july. 23rd 1863. The disasters the rebels are unredeemed by even hope of success. It is now conceded that all idea of intervention is at end, meaning intervention. Colonel gorgas. Most of youve never heard of, but he was the chief of ordnance for the confederacy. He made cannonballs down in richmond. Should look him up sometime. Have him out with logs. July 2818 63. Events have succeeded one another with disasters rapidity. One brief month ago we were apparently at the point of success. Lee was pennsylvania threatening harrisburg, even philadelphia vicksburg seemed to laugh. All grants efforts to scorn. Port hudson had beaten off banks forces all look bright. Now the picture is just as somber as it was bright then lee failed at gettysburg and has re crossed the potomac and the position of two months ago covering richmond, vicksburg and port hudson capital. It seems incredible that human power could affect such change in so brief a space. Yesterday we rode the pinnacle of success. Today absolute rooms seems to be our portion. The confederacy totters to its destruction. Somebody was asking me in the bat where i got the word totter. Well, the he. So when we get into this, when you get into gettysburg versus, vicksburg, how do you how do you. Impossible otherwise impossible. Impossible. How do you get back to. What is the more focal point of it . If you look at it, ladies, gentlemen, i mean, you look at the quarters that go out, you get gettysburg and, you get vicksburg. Is there any other civil war . Some might remind me because i may ask him really none . I think thats only two quarters, right . Right. Okay. Well, dont everybody answer at once. That shows something about the american psyche right there. And when you think about it, you know which is more important politics or local, im sure, to the people of illinois and the of iowa, those farmers who not get their produce down in new orleans out to the rest of the world. And by the way, who the railroad was jacking up the prices on when they tried to ship east. Im sure vicksburg was big deal. I might add to you that the boys that from the west from those western northern states if you understand what im talking about probably had a lot more vested in vicksburg especially their families because thats where their home people are fighting at the time. Gettysburg though you look at it, on the other hand. Its going to save arguably be going to save washington, d. C. And if washington, d. C. Falls, what is going to be the consequences of that . Or even if washington doesnt fall, what is the consequences of a confederate victory on northern soil right here . So vicksburg splits the confederacy in two. It opens up the father of waters goes on vexed to the sea, etc. And it also brings to the forefront forefront. Never heard of this guy william t sherman, right . Grants hand man. Grant is going to get promoted to east. Sherman is going to get command in the west. And that is basically related to vicksburg. With a subsequent success out in the chattanooga area. And that rolls it all up right there. Of the question then begs itself, could the war. Talking about sherman and grant . Could the war have been won without them . Can the north win the war without sherman and grant . That is an open ended question you to ponder. You know tigers to be riding right now. So if you think about it lays gentlemen which those of you up front because you paid the Early Bird Special of 130 can now see that small and you in the back cannot read that right back there will not get that joke there. But this actually happens to be the only picture that i could find all three generals in it. And cluding the subsequent president , andrew johnson. Grant and made out of those three commander. Which one do you find or two out of three or three out of three . Which one is which one are indispensable all debatable . Question but grant, obviously got to be up there if you think about it ladies and gentlemen, what about the the part, the veterans . What does it mean to them . There is a reason that the veteran is choose the five original civil war part. Do other parks merit inclusion . Yes. Especially around fredericksburg or peters, for that matter. Always ride through there. The later civil war parks didnt by as big a swath of land. You know, in the sometimes thats why you see houses abutting next to the park right. But your five original parks what are they in no certain order vicksburg shiloh chickamauga chattanooga. Thats one battlefield. Antietam and gettysburg. So when they congregate after the war, theyre going be at these original battlefields when they that you know, the 1938 reunion, they actually the war department, the u. S. Army ordered several hundred coffins in anticipation of some the veterans dying at the reunion. And im happy to say, oh, i hear the murmur in the crowd over this room. Well, you ought to be prepared as a boy scout. You. Thats actually right off the top of my head right there. The the the no. One died. Im happy to report. No one died. I think one person may have died on the way home, but no one died at the reunion. But what is that . What . That about the american psyche. Why is gettysburg bigger in the american psyche than vicksburg . Right here . Im running out of time. So have to sit through it. But i would urge to go through and at ladies and gentlemen and look at some of the more modern and its all over the place. The hardest part that i had, you know, some of this together and my coworker or Carlton Smith up at gettysburg i should give him a shout out to for many of these quotes the author really depends on the hes writing about and name book that is covering both gettysburg and vicksburg at the same time. So if youre writing about gettysburg you go and feel thats more important. And if youre writing about vicksburg, youre going to feel that more important singer Donald Sanger is going to say, although no one realized it, the chance success through military effort had already been lost. The soul confederate hope lay in the possibility of a stalemate at the south prevent a northern victory. She might win her political objective objective. Never heard of this book. Have you . Yes, i. You have. He coddington says in conclusion that these accomplishments were truly. But in return lee paid excessively high price and lives and the destruction of the myth invincibility. Nor he succeed in forcing the withdrawal of a single federal soldier from the siege. Vicksburg, which have been one of the main reasons of the campaign. Although the real meaning made victory at gettysburg emerged only with the passage of time, its immediate effect was to give the army of the potomac a sense of triumph which grew into an imperishable faith in itself. The confederates had put forth their best efforts and their best army, but they were not Strong Enough for army of the potomac, weak as it was lived up to its promise promise. Now you think about it. Jfc fuller as far as vicksburg is going to write that the drums of the battle of Champion Hill sounded the doom of bruce catton, who i have recently read. I hate to tell you all this, but i recently been reading the grant moved south and i fallen in love again with catton. I think he know we go in cycles in this civil business but i think hes hes not getting the credit hes do he is a fantastic writer he said this the end of grant moved south. This is after vicksburg. Grant was ready at last the time of testing was over and he had reached his full stature better than any other northern soldier, better than any other man. Save lincoln self. He understood the necessity of bringing the Infinite Power of the nation to bear on the desperate weakness of the brave, romantic and tragically archaic little that opposed it, seeming colen understood, too, that although rebels must be crushed with the utmost vigor, the rebels themselves were men who would again be friends and, fellow citizens. Now it time to go on. Sherman had said it. Sling the knapsacks for, new fields. So in conclusion, ladies and gentlemen. I actually that slab was on there. And if i ever fiveo to remember that now i was going to be on cspan. I probably want to put that slide on there. But i guess you put that what is that blurry image that can that you put over everything you like . I guess cspan says is not live. They can do something about and all the people that didnt pay 130 to attend this conference, you just wonder what this slide said. I did a research. We like to use the Word Research in the business and i did a Little Research on this unmentioned site and i wanted see how many hits, quote unquote, i would get when i put in the word gettysburg. And i want to see how hits i would get when i put in the word vicksburg and i filtered it by books. Mm hmm. And what i came up with approximately is got 7000 hits on gettysburg. And i 1000 hits on vicksburg. Yeah, i guess what im saying is that what why does to go back to the very beginning of this, why does the Eastern Theater outpace the western theater . Ive talked to artists before. Ive talked to, you know, civil war artists. They say they cant sell a print unless they paint a flag in it. They say that their confederate prints outsell their union prints. Ive talked to publishers. I talked a i wont name the guys name is with the major publication he told me that if he could put Nathan Bedford forrest the cover of his magazine every month he, would. Why . Because it sells right there. Well, robert e lee that matter, you know. Why is that much bigger . Why is gettysburg it though . I would like to leave you with one last rhetorical question, though. And as far as the gettysburg and vicksburg debate right here, lets look at the question. And i actually just wrote this down in my own handwriting, was back there eating lunch with miss kate. And i said to myself what if we looked at this different . Why dont we quit looking at it from lenses of victories, the union and why dont we look at it through the lens and this gets kind of hypothetic but nevertheless what would have happened if those union forces would been defeated. What would be the repercussions from that . And if you look at that, gettysburg versus vicksburg, a reverse form, if you will, then possibly youll be coming up with a better idea of why it was important. Both union armies won in the first place. I have to say, and i know waiting on me to pronounce which one is more important with bated breath here. I have to say that in the immediate aftermath, this is my opinion, and im not burt. Dunkel by the way. So ill try to be tactful tactful. I have to say that the that gettysburg in the immediate aftermath, if it had a defeat, would have been highly more problematic from the north and vicksburg would have. And i dont think im going too far out on a limb. However, i like to say also for vicksburg, if vicksburg if general grant is defeated outside of vicksburg, of course, i cant say this with 100 accuracy. But you may not see, lee versus in 1864, general may very well have been sacked and going back to one of my earlier questions, could the war have been won without u. S. Grant . William t sherman and the rest of the union command that ends up winning it. Thats questions for you to ponder right there, which is more important. And in the end. And gentlemen, is this the reason why gettysburg is so big in the american psyche . What if Abraham Lincoln had gone to vicksburg instead. Thank you all very much. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. So theres a 7 to 1 advantage for gettysburg books over vicksburg books. But fortunately, be two more fantastic vicksburg books added to that list. Im sorry i wasnt here when you call on me. I was 500. Really wellcrafted. Remember, lincoln did it to 272, and it took me that long to i want to savor that. So some questions for matt. Ive got one in the back as i travel and i got one up here. All right. Head up in this direction direction. Thank you, chris. Im guy muzzy of the baltimore miles from here. My question is you. We talk about gettysburg and vicksburg. Didnt John Batchelder have a lot do with the gettysburg populaire ad in his dedication to bringing that to bear . The gentleman is referring to John Batchelder. And if you dont know who John Batchelder is he is quote unquote the first his story in the battle of gettysburg ever. Every of the five original parts. I cant the original five historian but every park had had a veteran that came up and took an interest it and batchelder was the first he got to gettysburg in 1863 before there was any thought of a park and he started researching we have what are called the the bachelor or papers. Vicksburg had a guy by the of William Rigby and he had he corresponded veterans of the antietam had a gentleman named calm and so forth. So anyway these people paved the but the question was, did batchelder pave the way for gettysburg becoming so important in a way he did. He definitely facilitated to to a greater extent or under standing of the battle because hes already corresponding during the war with these union generals. And i hate to say i believe some of that correspondence was lost in a fire. I would to have that if i had a time machine. But but nevertheless, i think really helps gettysburg besides geographical location. And you could say this over vicksburg you could say this over the battlefields, around fredericksburg, etc. Gettysburg is fall in an area that is left unmolested immediately after battle and other words, engineers and these people that warner these families, these historians, people that want to see the battlefield can to gettysburg, pennsylvania, and not have to worry about confederate cavalry jumping in a town its not an active combat area and i think that helps really gettysburg rolling. And of course that got questioned over here. Yes. Matt scott, caleb woodbridge, virginia, eliza herrmann, man who brought a copy of brennans letter right there. That thats about as rare. If youd like something right there . Thats rare. Oh, everybodys like, i got to get one of those, man. Go ahead. Okay. Elijah hunt rhodes. Second, rhode island. Yes, over there. Munch our seal. Yes. Okay. He i think in his diary, which is a famous diary that was published. He actually mentions, i think, right after the battle glorious day. He talks about in gettysburg together. He is at gettysburg, but hes referring to some of the things that happened in the west. Yes. So you know, information as far as fast. Thats a hard thing to say right there. They kind of pieces in the news depending on where you are. Obviously, people in new york are going to hear about gettysburg before they are vicksburg. But you might argue that people in chicago be hearing about vicksburg before do gettysburg, or especially in the rural areas than when you get out. Its really weird how disseminates. I have some letters from ancestor who was going to ole miss at 1861 and its like two or three weeks after the firing of fort sumter and they still havent heard the news. Theyve heard that firing over there. But two weeks later, theres still has been no news to reach oxford, mississippi, like that. And its weird and it but its caught in the moment hes riding his parents saying i wonder whats happening over. Time for one final question. Cherry cake, a canfield, ohio man. Is there any way that could have realistically helped in pennsylvania his troops once it was known that lee was in pennsylvania . It like its a Long Distance to pull a whole bunch of men. Well, the debate was to wear the pull them out. General grant, not not getting too far back in the campaign or lose your but general grant. Suffice it to blew through several stop signs and taking vicksburg so to speak in going back to my speeding ticket but they and i should argue there. General its not. No i agree with you, sir. Its not realistic to get the union army all the way from mississippi all the way up to the north. Let me give this not what you ask, but let me give you one example. Can when the confederates surrendered at vicksburg, as i said, they surrendered close to 30,000 men. Admiral david dix and porter cain migrant says, you know, i can get them. I can get these rebs up north, but its going to take long time. And if you think about it, thats a lot of men. By the time the Vicksburg Campaign is over grant has probably got has been with reinforcements probably got close to 75,000 men around vicksburg right there. Now, you think about moving the components of it. Any union reinforcements, probably would be coming from middle tennessee or kentucky or Something Like that. Of tullahoma. Thats the closest gotten to mentioning tullahoma. How could i fail . Was that on byrds list . Tullahoma. No. Oh, wow. Well, he wont be invited back. Randy, let us go to Matt Atkinson. Were going to talk than one other source. Good morning. Welcome back for day two of coolidnd