I am going to skip right to what Dorothy Roberts said, because Dorothy Roberts was one of our speakers when she came here to present book torn apart. This is what dorothy once again, Daniel Hatcher powerful exposes how Government Systems operate and extractive part of the industry motivated by profit rather than justice, is our opening book is essential for understanding causal system mechanics and for working to hope that were going to get into lot of things with this book. And i wait to get into it. Daniel hatcher is professor of law at the university baltimore, where he teaches Civil Affairs and cleric in which students represent low income clients. You guys what im talking about not just learning, but acting. All right. He is the author of in addition to the nice book, the profits excuse me, the poverty industry, the exploitation of americas most vulnerable. So citizens that was former maryland legal aid and Childrens Defense Fund turned into attorney and has been a scholar. Advocate teacher on poverty and justice. Were so glad to have daniel here. Were also glad to have another member of the red hands. Fan Shanta Trivedi is here also from you because of baltimore thing. All right, shanta is assistant professor and faculty director of the sierra leone matter involved center for families, children and the courts at the University Law school of law. Previously he represented parents in brooklyn who are embroiled in the Child Welfare system. And as a result of that experience, writes about state sanctioned family separation, focusing on issues related to race, poverty and gender. This is important. We need to listen to. And so were going to have some of our four kids. So i need you to make some real, real radical returns on all this as we discuss in Justice Incorporated, how americas Justice System, children and poor make some noise for daniel l. Thank you so much for the introduction. Thank you. To read almas and again thank you for all that you do for increasing awareness. Ready to change starts with awareness. I have to say thank you to my brilliantly beautiful and beautifully brilliant wife banafsheh whos here. Im honored that multiple law students from the university of baltimore are here. Our future advocates for justice and multiple colleagues. And im grateful all around. Im thrilled to be here presenting with Shanta Trivedi, who heard the introduction from from ken and i add to this that shanta, as both a she has an infinite kindness, right . While similar heinously this just fierce, brilliant advocacy right. And she is already and her teaching and her scholarship and her advocacy causing immense change. And shes going to continue to do so. Its an honor to to speak with you im going to turn it over, shout before get into the voting minutes to process all of that. Well, i am thrilled be here. Im so grateful for the invitation and because i think its so important that the world hears more about your work and hopefully reads the entire book and as you know and we thank you for spare me from having to do my bio, you know, i do a lot of the work that you reference in the book and even i was stunned by some of your research and you reveal some really astonishing facts about the ways that the court system and Court Officials are able to profit off of the poor and before we get into the specifics of that, id to talk to you about why you decided to write this book. Well, i wish i didnt have to write the book because it candidly took a lot out of me you know both and and the research each of banafsheh solomon the research describe described i often will fall down into the matrix of the research and one issue will lead to another and then to another. It also takes a lot out of you and when youre reading the stories, understanding the numbers. Right. Because theres a risk that that when we read report after report, number after number of data, point after data point that you can almost become numb to it. Right. And can forget that each number is a child. So we have to remember that, you know, each number comes with a story. And in the book, know, i expose just a few of those stories and i try to uncover how all these revenue mechanisms are causing harm and are really turning our Justice Institutions on their from their intended goal of maximizing equal and impartial justice to maximize revenue. And i so, i feel driven to write the book mostly from my so ive been an advocate for children and the poor in a variety of ways for over 25 years now. And my first work as a legal aid lawyers representing children in the highly dysfunctional Baltimore Foster care system. And that was overwhelming to me. I represented hundreds of youth within just a year. I still see their faces. You know, i still wonder how theyre doing. I worry. And i still think could have done more, should have should have more. So experiencing through and through my adult and all the difficulties poverty that theyve been encountering in their perseverance. Right know like when when you have somebody whos struggling with poverty, its just barrier after barrier after barrier. Not just the difficulty of being low income, but all the systemic barriers that are put in front of you. So when somebody is struggling with that, being a youth or an adult and theyre able to break through even even partially, thats just heroic and i often think i know that if i were in their shoes, i dont think i would be able to make it out. So dance fire me and i feel driven through their stories and then realizing the systemic harm that theyre confronted with, feel driven to try to uncover that and expose it so that hopefully we can begin to write some of those wrongs. Yeah. And i mean, youve uncovered many, many wrongs and im wondering, you first learned that courts were able to make money off of cases in the way that you expose your book . Well, a variety of ways. One of the most stark examples i that i initially uncovered in my last book and actually scholarship before that. And i can describe a former client. So in addition to representing youth who are in the foster care system, i represented a former foster youth and im going to call him john. Even that is not as his real name. But so john was pulled into the system at age 12 when his mother died, he was shuffled from placement to placement, probably a 20 or more within that time to different foster homes, group homes, never getting the services that he needed. He when i encountered and john and became his his attorney, he told me about how he always to be an auto mechanic you know he loved cars and the Foster Agency wouldnt even help him when he was in the helped to gain access to even the cost or the process gaining his own drivers license. Right and then i find out with with john that that while hes in the system because his mother died, hes eligible for Survivor Benefits. Right. His mother work paid into the system. But the Foster Care Agency, the very agency that exists for the sole reason of serving and protecting his as best interests, sought those benefits out, applied the benefits, never told john, never told that theyre applying. Never told him that theyre to become the representative in control of those funds and then took literally every penny. Although his benefits from him. Right. And if you think like the stats of of of former foster youth are just lined up against them, you know, like again, you know, for those who are able do somewhat well, you know, after leaving the system im im amazed most right you know and so he had this potential to have this monetary resource and it wasnt just the money. Right. They took this connection from him. Right. You know, he had this money that was left to him from his Deceased Parent that he could have used. But the money in that connection to his parent to then help himself off. Right. And i just dont know how you put a number on that. So and i uncover a contract right that the state maryland the foster courageous they actually had a contract with a company by the name of maximus and i found one of the contract documents through a Public Information act request refers to foster youth as a Revenue Generating mechanism. Right. So this really the first example that i encountered of children being monetized, you know, by systems that are supposed to serve their wealth, what their welfare. And this book i uncover, what i think even more concerning that are very of justice, right including our courts that are supposed to be monitored, hours of mission that are supposed to review Agency Actions have become part of the poverty industry. You know, you talk about your client, john, as a foster you, then im going to take interview your privilege because this is my area of interest. And you know, i spent a lot of time thinking about harm of removing kids from their parents and what happens to them in foster care and the general harms by the Child Welfare or family policing system, as i call it. And ive watched removed from their parents and caught and will never ever have those images out of my brain and to think that people courts are making a profit off of that kind of pain and is really a lot to process and. Im wondering if you could splain how that is or how that could be . Well, a variety of ways, unfortunately. And i agree its striking. And one of the more striking examples that i had that i uncovered as i was and to a lot of the funding streams and there are many when you when you deal with children pulled into either the Child Welfare system or the juvenile Justice Systems programs for adults that are to serve the adults often aid funds that i think that ive uncovered have become general revenue right for the county coffers or for the state coffers. Again, the last book, it was the ways in which Human Service agencies with private companies to really turn who are supposed to be their beneficiaries and the revenue tools. So what you describe, you know, thats the example i initially uncovered out of ohio and then multiple states are using the same contractual scheme Juvenile Court, youre actually entering contracts to become part of the the executive branch to become the local Foster Care Agency in ohio. So and if you just pause and think about that for a second, you know, we had a revolution for some years ago escape the idea of tyranny, you know, of of centralized power. Right. That was in the hands of one entity, in that case, the english crown and the founders as flawed humans as they were, created a structure government built upon that separation of powers and most crucial within that the independence of our judiciary. So here you have an ohio. I found the Juvenile Courts are actually becoming contracted become part of that executive branch to take on the local Foster Care Agency function and then what they do in order to generate the funds, you know, they first put on their court at adjudicate children delinquent and then they put on the contract for foster care placing agency hat the children are then removed or labeled as a foster care candidate and constantly process. They put their court hat back on again review their own actions right and and if they review themselves favorably they can generate more revenue. Theyre pulling down whats called federal foster care for e revenue, which a very large Funding Source supposed to go to foster agencies to provide services to children. But the courts found a way to tap into that, literally even have a quote from one of the Juvenile Court judges. Literally, the more children removed from their homes, the more revenue the can make. And you dig further and you start to understand how the math works on mechanics work. Its not just that theyre generating revenue from. The services right from the removal from the Court Operations and then the the foster care placing agency operations, they took over the generating and administrative costs. And this sounds kind of dull at first, but what that means is theyre literally using Vulnerable Children pulled into the system to fund overhead. Right. And to fund the overhead, the entire court structure, from paying salaries to fringe benefits. Right. To travel or to even depreciation on courthouse buildings. I even found a training where theyre actually able to claim the administrative cost, the process of claiming administrative. Right. And we understand that youre smarter than me. Right . It starts to sound like a pyramid scheme. And in terms of the revenue, i found a slide and a training where the the the the training for the and how to maximize revenue. They literally to youth as if they were members of the jetson mds or the flintstones. Right and it sounds like theyre bringing comical first look at trying to make a joke about this process of claiming revenue from children and the name that they use for one of the children was betty ruble. They misspelled it. And that rubble ruble and through that slide whats explain to the court staff is that the more torture dren that are removed from their homes compared to nonpoor children. So this whats called a penetration rate as what they use by the revenue maximization and consultants in many of the courts work with and what the penetration rate is, literally the percentage of poor kids who are removed from their homes compared to nonpoor kids. And if that percentage goes if you have a greater percentage of poor kids, they can claim more revenue. So its just to say its strikingly concerning is an understatement. Right. You know, like the incentives are stark. Its its unconstitutional. But that i argue in the book and i think its an argument. Right. You know, its a its be a more clear violation of separation of powers and, whats supposed to be judicial impartiality, which is required by due and our constitution, and an application of ethics committed in two that a little more you say that the more children that are involved, the more the courts make. Why . Well, because theres this funding stream that again, that the courts are pursuing. And its not just prosecutors have similar contract. I talk about that more as Probation Department title four e is what is called of the Social Security act. Its a large federal funding stream. Right. And the way its set up and where the courts are maximizing is that funding ends up only available f the children come from poor families that theyre from families who used to be eligible for the old welfare law called afdc. Right. So they have to be from from poor families. And that then becomes the penetration rate, right so they they literally had seen these contract documents and trainings where the revenue maximization contractors will advise this goal of your penetration rate. Right. And that when youre reading in a person like is advocates of sounds like you know, like sort of an economic principle or something. Its literally increasing the percentage of poor kids compared to nonpoor kids that are removed from their homes. That allows the increased generation revenue. So 40 funds are tied to a program that not exist anymore and hasnt existed for quite some time. And through that were allowed to make more money because of this connection between a law program that doesnt exist and, a funding structure thats in place through the Social Security act. Right. You know, and its a lot of money thats coming in, obviously. Ive seen examples, you know, in ohio in their own annual report and you start to dig into some of these annual reports. Right. You and it feels more like youre youre often reading almost a a presentation to potential investor, right. More so than a report of an institution of justice. Right. An annual report and budget documents millions that are being drawn down in annually through through for this process. And this is just one, right. You know, through the care funds, you can have the same court who could generate revenue from from a child adjudicated delinquent and removed from his home. Then that same court in ohio and in in other states could under an additional you know another one of these interagency contracts to generate more revenue by pursuing whats called Child Support. Although its not against the mother from from whom the child was removed. So the court will then pursue the mother for Child Support that doesnt actually go the child. Right. It isnt benefiting the its used to repay the of foster that the court just ordered right and then theyre any more even more revenue through process pulling down whats called title four d revenue and some of these contracts that seen theyre making even money through that process. Yeah i want to go back to child for sure. And you know, you mentioned ohio okay and, you know, your book talks about texas and louisiana. All right. I expect some of that my husband has lived in texas and louisiana swearing at me. But but, you know, in reading your book i was shocked to learn that some of these practices are happening here. Right. Right. Well, and these practices are happening. You know, i do uncover, you know, a lot of examples across the country and sometimes more of the the striking examples can tend to happen in some what are considered more traditionally conservative areas. And you can see some irony, some sometimes in the practices, right, where you have the current leadership that might be adamantly against any aid for low income individuals. They are actually seeking out of maximizing that federal but then not actually using it the way theyre supposed to for the poor instead of actually using it as a general revenue source. Right. To go into the general coffers. Maryland several examples as. Well, in which these are happening, you know, as i described earlier,