Congratulations on your new book titled when it sells all. Ive been a big fan of your work for many years and its great to see all your great reporting put together in one book. So congratulations. Thanks so much, eugene and i think you know as well a big fan of your work over the not amazon is not an easy company to cover and so for our fellow reporters who do it really well for a long period of time i just have the utmost in you and yours, sir. Youre at the top of that list. So a thrill to chat with you today about this. Great. Thanks. So to start off, i wanted to ask you about the of your book winner sells. What did you try to convey there . It seems to reflect, you know, bo amazon and walmart. They want to sell everything. But at the same time, youre the conclusion of your book seems imply that theres going to be many winners at the same time. So whats kind of your thought there . Sure. So i think what i was trying to get at with the winner. All title is there was a period of time where specifically inside of walmart were some leaders who felt if they not finally sort of get their act together in Online Retail . So they had know as we might get into for many years you know had fits and starts of paying a lot of attention to ecommerce and investing and then, you know, but really, it was a side show, a distraction for the company. And there came a certain point where. Amazon was growing so quickly, creating so much, gaining so much market share in ecommerce that that walmart did feel there could be a day in the future when amazon is essentially the only winner in ecommerce, you know, whether thats 80 , 90 or 100 market share or some very number unless walmart acted in a big way. And youre right, we i you know, i in the book with without giving away too much yet saying that a we might not be in a great position as a society if if if theres only one. I think we know that but even these two goliath is going head to head. Competition is probably not enough to bring about all the positive changes that wed hope would come with over time and. So maybe maybe well be talking about another company 20 years from now that does things better with respect to labor relations, consumer attention, and also environmental impact. Right. And im also curious about the timing of the book. You know, this rivalry competition has been going on for years. Was there any particular you decided to publish this now or any reason why the viewers have to care about now . Sure. So i think theres a couple of reasons. I started working on the book in a proposal for the book actually in 2019, signed a deal in 2020, a few months after the pandemic began. At that time, you know, ecommerce had become Online Shopping had become, you not just a convenience for many, many people, a necessity. And so walmart was sort of forced after many years again, you know, treating Online Shopping as as a sideshow. So not really connecting their business to their stores as as they could have. And as much as amazon fear they would. Walmart was forced to you know if they wanted to keep their customers and gain customers to really invest heavily this space. So that was that was part of the timing and the impetus that we you know, my agent and i sort of rushed the proposal go ahead of where we would have liked because of the pandemic and all the focus on how important ecommerce was. It was a lifeline for many people. Also. There have been many great books written about amazon. We both knew the journalist brad stone, who has written two of them and but walmart, you know, despite size, despite their power and influence, really hadnt a big important written about them since 26. Book called the walmart. And that book actually, if im not mistaken, did not amazon once in it because of the timing of it. And so theres walmart has gone through this classic case of the innovators dilemma as theyve to figure out Online Retail and catch up to amazon in some ways. And i just thought it was a really story, the tenure of the ceo, doug, who has tried to lead reinvention, you know, has been day to day in news publications, some great journalists, but not in a deep thorough way. And each company influences each others strategies so much over time that i just thought it was a story that hadnt been told. And as the two biggest employers in this country with so much influence, you know, now was the time. Yeah, i agree. Theres theres not that good books about. Walmart. I think the only book i read was the biography by walmarts founder. Right . Yeah. So so your book really does a great job of, you know, really capturing the latest on walmart. Id like to talk a little bit about the opening scene of the first chapter. Its really a fascinating scene where this guy named robert davis meets with walmarts thenceo. I think his name is david glass, correct . He practically puts his job on the line to convince the ceo that walmart to push harder on ecommerce. And then, you know, the story gets really complicated, but can you kind of get into that a little bit and you would history be different if his pitch went a different way . Sure. Yeah. So, yeah, its one of my favorite anecdotes in the book. You know, i even covering walmart and amazon over time, ive kind of been under the impression that walmart just kind of in the earliest years in the nineties, just kind of missed the boat on ecommerce. Wasnt paying enough attention. And what found after a lot of reporting and you know some very helpful former walmart execs pointing me in the right direction, i found there was there was there were excuse me, there were people inside of walmart who saw the promise of ecommerce were actually leading some very small initiatives at walmart, as amazon was just getting selling goods, you know, a walmart website. I think sams club had an early thats partly sams club is by walmart as well. And, you know this employee, robert davis, big champion of the walmart company, had been there a while already. I think about decade and imagined he would spend the rest of his career there. 1998, summer of 1998. Thats the of the scene and yes he walks into the office of david glass, who was the then ceo so walmart head and still says they do have an open door. So walks in asked to with david and is explaining you know we have this small team experimenting with ecommerce but really i need all the other divisions to know from you. The ceo, that we are committed to this new Sales Channel essentially that if i go to to the Warehousing Division or the Trucking Division and tell them i want to put walmart. Com stickers on the side of all these trucks that crisscross the country, that they wont laugh in my face, essentially. And, you know, david glass, who is smart, longtime leader of that company, he said, robert, this this online thing, it may be maybe cool and new but i dont think itll ever be than the sales of one of our sams club stores. So robert davis, a decision to make. He had who had left for amazon and were trying to get him to join. And he had a he had to decide do i save this company i love but that isnt seeing the future or i you know take a chance take a pay cut, move my life my family from arkansas to seattle and go on a new adventure. And that is the path he he chose. And question was also would be differently. I listen walmart had the connections the Product Selection the logistics might the trucks to really be huge player early on if they if they you know put all their effort behind it and i think i think its possible amazon yes may not a be as big or or you know even be potentially if put a big commitment behind this in the nineties i mean amazon was was tiny at the time you know, maybe 100 or 150 million in revenue, which, you know, yes, is a big number, but the companys worth 1. 2 trillion today. So nothing back then. And walmart selling. I, i think a billion a year through. The supercenter so huge moment in time and a story that up till i believe was not told about this important part of business history. Yeah. And whats there a moment when i guess walmart to take amazon more seriously . You know, a lot had happened the rise of the internet and, you know, ecommerce but was there kind of a catalyst that changed the perception over walmart versus amazon. Yeah, sure. So so come to mind so so a few years after robert davis leaves walmart a young executive at walmart who had actually married into the company into the Walton Family, married a granddaughter of sam walton. He he, you know, convinced the company that they start a dedicated online unit at First Partnership with a Venture Capital firm that didnt go very well. And then as part of walmart proper, he sort of know he saw what was coming bit he would go on to become walmarts chairman and and so that was an Inflection Point. They at least were investing a bit but but really you fast forward until the early 2000 tens. Doug mcmillon becomes, ceo of walmart lifer but a younger leader in 2014. And he and his Leadership Team decide we need something to speed up our metabolism. Amazon prime is wrecking ball. We are losing. They knew by that point, they were losing the best walmart Online Customers to amazon prime and they they end up deciding that the best way forward is to make the biggest ecommerce acquisition at the time. Of 3. 3 billion to buy really a pretty unsustainable young at the time called jet. Com but in turn they were buying a Leadership Team led by an entrepreneur named mark lawrie who you know for people follow this space might know previously started a Company Called diapers. Com dot com Parent Company his name was quincy sold it to amazon although really tried to buy that company well marc spent few years at amazon before starting jet. Com and then becoming part of the walmart family through that giant acquisition back in 2016. Yeah, we should probably get into mark lawrie and the whole jet acquisition before that. I also want ask the kind of part reading your book was that walmart was always kind of an early adopter. Adopter, did they they kind of invested in new logistics, made early, early investments in Technology Early on in the founding years, but then for some reason they didnt embrace ecommerce for a long time and im just curious why. Why was that was just you know fear of cannibalizing their own physical store or business. Were there other factors in play . Yeah, i think there were a few big reasons one. One was, you know, walmart built on low, low prices, low wages for but also, you know, theyve run their operations as profitable operations and, you know, they there was this thing they did not want to have different prices in stores from online. But when youre shipping in goods because of ecommerce you have to pay obviously you have to pay for people to pack those boxes and then and then the shipping fees. Right. And ecommerce especially in the early days really unprofitable operation. And a Company Whose is all about not wasting a cent and sure you make profits and then wall street express expecting not to mention dividends. You know those two just you know those two things were hard to to reconcile and so they did not want lose money but at the on the other side they were facing a Company Amazon who was telling wall dont expect profits for a long time were going to gain market share and eventually have tons of Free Cash Flow as we gain share. But you know were in this for the long term. So that was a big sort of dna problem culture clash, you know, sort of what some would call classic dilemma. And that was so even, you know, i talked to a lot of leaders of the walmart online unit over over and they said even at different points you know theyd have a reporting structure where they reported kind of reporting into two different leaders. One would be saying grow, grow and sort of the amazon way. And the other would say, you know, make sure have profits. You know, just one last thing on this topic. One of these leaders i quote in my book, he he said that, you know, there were a couple of years where in the early 2000 where walmart online finally growing, you know, pretty quickly at about a 50 clip year over year and that was not really celebrated. But when the Business Unit got close to profitable city, that is what leader and he called it a mistake. He said, you know walmart amazon at that time is investor ing billions a year into into their ecommerce core business and were investing maybe a couple of hundred million and looking back at some of these leaders just felt like, you know, it was really hard that time for them. But also maybe they didnt paint amazon in as much of the existential threat as they should have. But it was hard to see for some of these walmart leaders that looking at their size, their business and then seeing, you know, a much smaller company, you know, innovating a new way. Yeah. And i think the cultural issues, you you get into in your book, thats also played a really big role. You know, i guess some of the executives had incentives for and the walmart ceo had some you know, they didnt get along with mark basically. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest takeaways for sort of business takeaways and it may sound, but its, you know, something along the lines of its incentives really matter. And when you have different divisions of a big company with that dont align for your leaders like youre going to have big problems. And so as you alluded to, um, you know, mark laurie comes into walmart with his leadership from jet. Com, all these tech guys and gals in the late 20 tens and their, their bonus structures are really all about sales growth not judged on profitability at all. It comes to bonuses. You have guy named greg foran who longtime Retail Leader in australia and then for walmart in china and then in the us running the massive store network and a big part of his bonus structure and his Leadership Teams has do with profits. And so mark laurie and their teams numbers role into greg numbers and so the the losses in ecommerce affect greg and his teams bonuses and it was a big problem you know i have some anecdotes where greg is quipping to colleagues that mark worries that 3 billion men and he must be along walton relative for how much walmart gave him part of the acquisition and mark know to be fair didnt really help the cause much you know he he wants he wants me to joke in public that greg makes all the money. I spend it all and just at a company like walmart based so much on frugality and low prices and profits that just was never going to go over well. So we should probably talk a little bit more about mark laurie. He plays a central role in your book and. You know, in the scheme of all the walmart history, he was a kind of central figure. Who is this guy . Why is the importance im sure. I mean, what about it . Yeah. So today, i mean, people nonbusiness audience may know him best if youre a sports fan as hes hes now a coowner coowner of the Minnesota Timberwolves basketball franchise along with alex rodriguez, the former baseball star. But ill back up. So mark lori is a guy from originally from Staten Island new york moved to new jersey as a child and is sort of an entrepreneur an entrepreneur always coming up with new ideas as he and a colleague he had an old friend once had a in their early days a Baseball Card company that they sold to topps the Baseball Card company. And then he and a friend then go on to start a Company Called quincy, which was a portfolio of websites but really the main one was diapers. Com. And diapers. Com really was fascinating and attracted loyal audiences, especially in new york and san francisco, because for parents that were starting to digitally savvy, they were putting diapers on your doorstep. In a day or two. The Customer Service was incredible. And, you know, they were really amazon and walmart in this space. So he sort of first comes on the business scene in a big with that company and then the acquisition the sale to amazon i an anecdote in my book about it sort of the last few days before amazon agrees to purchase that company and he and his cofounder tell the amazon leaders over dinner theres some alcoholic drinks consumed that walmart came in at the last minute and, offered them 100 million more. And i describe for, you know, you would think for someone on the precipice of a huge fortune that of course you take the extra 100 million but he and his the amazon executives sort of flip out on him at this dinner table in new york city. They threaten to cut the prices of diapers even more. And essentially, they he and cofounder, end up sticking with amazon they say now, you know, largely out of fear what might happen if if the walmart falls through and they dont have buying them either. So he he becomes known for that reason. Then like i said, either in his final days, amazon or right after he leaves amazon still unclear starts this new idea of a Company Called jet. Com. Again another Online Shopping site, but was trying to do things slightly different way gives savings to customers for taking actions that would make shipments more affordable for the company. So you order more goods jet. Com would give you a discount because they could have all those goods come out of the same warehouse have the warehouse be close to your home and the shipment would be cheaper them. And so they pass on savings. They a variety of different mechanisms to try to help you save money. It was really complicated though mark and his team spent tons of Venture Capital money advertising jet. Com on tv on busses subway was trying to just get people try this service and then stick with it and theyre starting to run out of money but walmart they find walmart and a connection with walmart ceo an introduction and walmarts pretty desperate at that as well and so they they find this marriage and mark goes mark to spend four or five years at walmart which weve which weve alluded to. And he gets sort of Carte Blanche an open, yo