Been several years since jonathan was here. He was here for th it is really wonderful for us to have jonathan back at the carter library. You know, it has been several years since jonathan was here. He was here for a book about jackie robinson. And that has probably been seven or a neck years since then. And what is really neat is that jonathan had decided to kick offs book tour for his new book. His book just came out yesterday. And do that here at the jimmy carter president ial library, which is really, i think, great. This is his sixth book. He has written, as i said, about jackie robinson, lou gehrig, muhamed ali, al capone, as well as the foursome who really did the push to get the approval of the Birth Control pill. But the thing that you see in jonathans writing is an immense amount of research that goes into it. And i think he comes by that naturally. His dad was an accountant. So a stickler for details. And his mom is a community activist. So if you think about that and think about the subjects he has written about, jackie robinson, muhamed ali, Martin Luther king, i think he gets that from her, as well. He has been a reporter in the dallas morning news, chicago magazine, wall street journal. He is taught at Columbia College and lectures at northwestern university. The Washington Post calls his new book the most compelling account of kings life in a generation. So i think we are in for a treat tonight. So it was important, i think, for us to have just the right person to interview jonathan. Valerie jackson is that person. You know, she is always referred to as the former first lady of atlanta, which is true. But it really does not tell her story. I mean, she grows up in virginia. She is one of the first African American students admitted to her high school. She goes to college, gets her degree in business administration, and then goes to the Horton School of business, probably the finest school of business. Gets her mba there. She goes on. She is an advertising executive. A Regional Marketing executive for an airline. When she married mayor jackson, who was the first African American mayor of the city of atlanta, she served as an adviser to the citys Economic Development program, bringing National Conventions and programs to this city. And then if i were to go on and list every board and committee and commission that she is on or heads, you would never hear anything from jonathan tonight. So please join me in honoring Mallory Jackson and jonathan. Good evening. Good evening. Out of all those things that he mentioned my favorite thing to do is read and talk to others. Well, i am so happy to be here. Jonathan, it is so happy to see you again. I think the last time i saw you was on your muhamed ali book. And we had a wonderful time. As a matter of fact, i commented on how many tabs i had to put in the book. Look, i was trying to be discriminating. I noticed that almost every page had a tab on it. You have got to be discriminating. Right . Well, this is discriminating. And that is after i slowed down. What this really means is this is a really comprehensive, rich book that contains so much important information. I cannot resist underscoring and highlighting it. Which color marks the correction . That is such a good answer and good choice. Anyway, there have been so many books written already about Martin Luther king. I have at least a cornine on my shelf, not counting yours and not to mention his that he wrote about himself. I have about 10 of those. So the first question one is forced to know is, why did you think there was a need for yet another Martin Luther king book . Two reasons, mainly. One, it had been a long time since the last king biography. 40 years. Since then, we have had other great books about civil rights and about king. Obviously, the Taylor Branch trilogy and that covers america. Davids book is not a biography but it is wonderful. 20 years between Martin Luther king is ridiculous. Obviously, there is a lot more material. Not just fbi material, but archived material coming into play. And there were people alive who knew dr. King. This was the sweet spot where i could get around an interview before it was too late. And while i was here for atlanta it with my ali book interviewing people like john lewis and andrew young, i just gravitated towards asking what wheres dr. Kinglike . Because ali and dr. King met a few times. I was curious about people who knew dr. Martin luther king jr. Carter was born four and half years before Martin Luther jimmy carter is still with us. Martin luther king could still be with us. His older sister is still with us. I just realized this is an Incredible Opportunity to meet people who knew him and record their stories one last time. There were certainly things, like a biography that was inclusive. A lot of things about him. So there is a great deal of information that had not been out there before that you have brought to the front. But i must say that the portrait of king that emerges from your book may be troublesome for some people, but you said that you wanted to recover the real man from the ocricy. Remind the audience what you meant . One of the things that happened especially since the National Holiday was implemented is that we have turned him into this almost idealized figure. And, you know, we teach beginning in kindergarten this vision of king beginning with i have a dream. And we often do not get more sophisticated than that. In the process of doing this, we lose sight of his humanity. He had feelings. He suffered. He had doubts. He was not perfect. And we do not need our heroes to be perfect. We just need them to be brave and idealistic and moral and he was all of those things. I wanted to write a book we can believe this was the real man and not the cardboard cutout we have been getting for so long. Tell us a little bit about Martin Luther king as a young man, a. K. A. Michael king. Mike, little mike as he was called as his daddy was big mike grew up here of course in atlanta on ahlborn avenue. And he was of course the preachers son. He was under constant scrutiny because of that. He grew up learning the bible before he learned to read. And he was somewhat privileged. He did not seem to be as bruised growing up in the racist south as some of the others because he had a little bit of a bubble. You know . Ahlborn avenue was considered like the miracle avenue. It was a special place where black people run their own businesses and have these powerful churches and have some power within the community and can negotiate with politicians. And king had this educated set of parents. Now, his father came from sharecropping. He educated himself when he got to atlanta. All of these influences really prepared king to be who he was. How did he come from being michael to now Martin Luther . Well, his father was born michael king with no middle name. In stockbridge. When he moved to atlanta he became known as m. L. King. I think people thought the initials added a little bit of dignity. It was a trendy thing at that time to call yourself by two initials. It appears he did that because he was arising in the world and m. L. Sounded a little bit more professional. Then he began calling himself martin and marvin at one point. In the 1930 sentence he was listed as marvin. It may have been a mistake by the census taker. We do not know. But then he travels to germany and learns more about Martin Luther and turns the l. To luther. It is not until his wedding invitations that he begins to call himself martin l. King. So why Martin Luther . Martin luther was a great partisan reformer in germany who released it for standing up for your beliefs and principle over practicality. Well, he did not really want to be a minister. Did he . His father assumed he was going to be minister. It is interesting though. I found an autobiography. Daddy king. Martin luther king senior. I found an iop. Fee that he wrote that was never published. He talks about how he pressured his kids to become preachers. Martin jr. And his brother became preachers. But that he king said that he wanted them to make money. He was really more concerned with them i am sweating quite a bit here. This happens to me often. Do not worry. No. Thanks. Yeah. In this autobiography that was never published, daddy king really said he wanted them to be businessmen, lawyers. He was really concerned with their financials. Daddy king glued drens safety. Yo up tha sharecroppers son. His ability to remake himself was a lifechanging experience for his entire family. He was also concerned with his childrens safety. The idea that Martin Luther king jr. Would become a protest leader really frightened him and he went to montgomery several times and said, you have got to come home. Knock this off. You are going to get killed. Daddy king was protective of his son, wanted him to be financially stable, and we often hear that he pressured his kids to become preachers but that is not true. The one thing about his childhood that struck me in that book was when they had the premiere of gone with the wind. It was here in atlanta. Big, big premier. But the problem was it was segregated so blacks were not allowed to attend as guests, unless they were being a chauffeur or a waiter. But the king family had a great choir at Ebenezer Baptist church. Am not sure daddy king made this suggestion or they reached out to him, but somehow they were invited to perform. Not to be a guest but to perform at the premier. And they did. Tell me, what role did he play . What role did Martin Luther king jr. Play . He was dressed as an enslaved boy and sat in the front row of the choir. The entire choir was dressed in slave tops. And they performed for this all white audience and these rich benefactors and rich moviegoers. Clark gable have phone in on a private chat. This was the biggest event in atlanta history at this time and it celebrated slave culture. And daddy king decided to bring his choir. Alberta king decided to lead the choir. And our friend told me that much of the black community was furious with king for allowing his choir to perform for gone with the wind, but daddy king said a lot of that movie is true. I think he got caught up in the excitement with the celebrities. And there is a picture of it. You cannot quite make out young Martin Luther king jr. , but you can see the children in the front row at the hollywood premiere. Martin luther king is one of those children in the front row. One of the six dobbs sisters who are all outstanding women in their own right, john wesley dobbs, who our street is named after here as you know, had six daughters and they all excelled. The mother was a french professor. But grandfather dobbs was very upset about the king family performing in this performance. And they said that basically daddy king led a combination of protest and accommodation. To be able to operate in the city and develop grace with the white leaders. Grandfather dobbs did not think it was a good idea. We will move on from that day. He actually ended up going to seminary. And he had a little bit of a problem in terms of, he was an eloquent speaker but his writing left much to be desired. So he often had a handicap. Talk about how he plagiarized . I did not want to say that. We are among friends. As i said before, i think it is acknowledged that our heroes do not have to be perfect. So he is in grade school. It really set him back. And he had to account for it. And it affected his performance all through high school or college. And then, also, there is somewhat of a culture. There were some experts in the room who can chime in on this or dispute me. Preachers do not have the same attitude about plagiarism as College Professors because they borrow from other preachers and they repeat it. That is part of the beauty of church and sermons. They are like jazz musicians. They hear a phrase and borrow a phrase and make it their own. So Martin Luther king grew up practicing sermons long before making dissertations. He began plagiarizing at an early age. The fact that he plagiarized his doctoral is wellknown. It was reported by the professors at stanford. I discovered and im sure i am the first one to discover this that he also plagiarized the High School Speech contest he entered and finished in third place. No, Martin Luther king finished third place in a public speaking contest is shocking enough. Maybe if he had not plagiarized it he would have won. He got bad grades in english. I was shocked. I want to get through as much as i can. King was influenced by several great minds like philosophers like Frederick Nietzsche and gandhi, of course. In addition to the religious ministers that he studied, who were some of the most lasting influences on dr. King . If we are just talking academics, i was going to say jesus, probably. The most important influence other than his parents. Maybe more so. But Benjamin Mays has to be at the very top of the list. He would be above nietzsche and condi. Because Benjamin Mays offered a vision is just subtly different enough from what his father offered. From what Martin Luther king senior offered. Martin luther king senior was like a lot of us a little bit embarrassed. He was a countrys speech are. His sermons were very emotional. He shouted and he stomped. And young martin felt like he wanted to be more sophisticated than that and he wanted to be more of an outright activist. If he was going to be a preacher, he was going to use it to fight jim crow. Not just to lead his community and uplift his community. But to get on the frontlines. Pension mays offered a vision about how to do that. Benjamin mays combined the preaching and the intellectual rigor and the discipline to do something with yourself. He said more responsibility. I think Martin Luther king really felt like that is the kind of man he wanted to be. Well, Benjamin Mays is one of my, too. He is a wonderful person. My favorite quote is from Benjamin Mays and it is and i am sure that dr. King probably heard this too if you believe in something, you must act on it. If you do not act on it, it is not a belief. It is just an opinion. I like that. Wow. I am making a list of all the things i regret in the last book. And that is on the list. We are familiar with a lot of the names associated with dr. King. Including his best male friend. Of course, i thought he was outstanding. Filip randolph. Thurgood marshall. We mentioned Benjamin Mays. Then there were people like Stanley Levison. I never heard much about him until i read your book. Talk about stanley let us in. When king emerged as a leader, immediately people began to say, this guy is magic. This guy has got power. He is lighting up the media. He is people are flocking to him saying, we need to get this guy to help us and expand this beyond montgomery. So literally, people like Lillian Smith just arrived in montgomery saying we need you. What can we do to help you take this beyond montgomery. And one of the people who contacted him is this white businessman with deep and long lasting communist ties named Stanley Livingston. He becomes one of his best advisers. He ghost rights lots of his books. King was not a good sleeper. He would be up at 2 00 or 3 00 in the morning with ideas racing to his head and he will call Stanley Livingston to take these ideas around. It is a fascinating friendship. It is strictly a activist intellectual relationship. Well, levison said that king was really the most powerful figure in the country without a political party, labor union, or wealthy benefactor behind him. I thought that was significant. But stanley, there are also some problems with him. His strong connection with the communists. How did that affect dr. King . Did he eventually try to distance himself . He was warned over and over again by the kennedys that you have got to cut Stanley Levison out of your life. J. Edgar hoover is breathing down your. He is not just blaming him. They felt like that they could all be tolerated with the communist brush because king had this association, not just with levison, but several other people in the organization. It is silly because there are former communists all over america at this point including people who worked all around the whitehouse. But it became an accession for j. Edgar hoover and it led in part that is one of the reasons that hoover became obsessed with destroying king. It came with communism and the fact that king dared to criticize the fbi. King said the fbi had a problem because it had no black agents in the south. They are supposed to be protecting the civil rights marchers and activists but how could they when they were all white and in bed basically with the southern sheriffs offices where they work. And the kkk. Many of them were kkk members. So j. Edgar hoover became irate. How dare this guy criticize me. And that is really a big part of why the entire weight of the federal government and Law Enforcement bureau came down on one moral leader. Those who became strongmen surrounding dr. King, tell me about the strong women who worked their skin off the bone. They oftentimes were subjugated to lesser roles. Talk about that environment. Make a point. The Civil Rights Movement was led primarily by black mentors preachers who grew up in a culture that did not really