Breaker . You know, we struggled a little with with the title. And i would ask people, what should i title this this biography of Barbara Walters . And people suggested things, like Million Dollar baby or baba wah, wah. I mean, these were actually slings and arrows she endured. And it was interesting that thats what came to mind with some people when i when i talked about a biography of Barbara Walters. But it was my it was my editor at simon and schuster, priscilla peyton, who said she really me as a rule breaker. And rule breaker seemed to be exactly right because Barbara Walters broke every rule around. And, you know, she didnt just break rules. She ignored them. She pretended she couldnt see them. So the idea that a a woman couldnt do serious interviews, she just ignored it and went ahead and scheduled serious interviews. The idea that a woman can be paid as much as a man. Well, she certainly blew that idea up. The idea later in life that a woman could age on tv, you know, she was 67 when she embarked on her last big adventure, the view of you, the abc talk show. So Rule Breakers seemed to me to be exactly right. And a rule maker as well who can treat me on cover of the book is a picture of Barbara Walters when she had just joined abc news where i had already been for a for a year or two. What is happening at that moment . That that picture is taken. This picture is from 1976. That was the year she got she reached the pinnacle that she had sought for so long to be named coanchor of evening network, newscast the abc evening news. And it had been a terrible experience as she was going into what we today would call a hostile workplace. Her coanchor, Harry Reasoner, initially threatened to quit if they brought her on board. He treated her with such contempt on the air that they doing two shots. Now, i know you wanted to show that, but a two shot is where they would show both anchors. But they were afraid to show Harry Reasoner listening to Barbara Walters on the air because he was so often scowling. I was going to say he he could scowl and make a kind of a physic all response to her without having to utter a word. His contempt was perfectly clear. Abc started to get letters from viewers, mostly women viewers, saying, what in the world is going on . This isnt fair. And they finally developed a form letter in response to said, please give it some time. We know is going to work out all right. Thats how bad it was. But for Barbara Walters, she felt she was failing. She felt she was drowning. Not only was she drowning, she said, but there were people who wanted to hold her head under the water. And this was a point where she was not entirely sure if she would recover, if her career would recover, or if her ambitions had gotten so big that they would undermine the achievements she already had scored. Well, let me take you a year head. December of 1977 and president jimmy carter was visiting iran new years eve with the shah. Barbara and i were both for abc news on the trip and the big press charter lambs in tehran just ahead of air force one. And there is a car waiting for me to whisk me over to a local museum where mrs. Carter, without the president , was going to go visit right from the airport. And i get into this sedan sitting behind this iranian driver, and theres an interpreter in the front seat and egyptian and. Im told that the reason theres an interpreter is because an iranian man would never take driving directions from a woman. So the egyptian turns to me, says the driver would like to know if you know ms. Barbara walters. Tehran, 1977. I said, indeed, we work for the same company and gyptian said he wants to know, is it true she is paid 1,000,000 a month . And i said, well, actually i think its 1,000,000 a year. And the drivers face fell. Barbara walters was already a global icon. And then didnt it kind of propel her her career from that point on . Isnt that a wonderful story . Because how many journalists have had similar experiences to that . And, you know, one of them who did was Walter Cronkite. So Walter Cronkite was, of course, the leading anchor of the day and a figure of unquestioned authority. And someone who viewed Barbara Walters with a little bit of skepticism about whether she was a real journalist. And they were both trying to cover the groundbreaking things that were happening in the middle east, a groundbreaking trip of anwar sadat of egypt to israel. And it was Barbara Walters and her ability to cultivate relations with World Leaders that a few months earlier in 1977 enabled her to get the first sit down interview with both the egyptian president and the israeli Prime Minister and this was the interview that not only solidified her comeback from her experience as as a coanchor of the evening news, it also Walter Cronkite, which both of them knew. Yeah. And that interview split screen. It was it was not only a moment for journalism, it changed American Foreign policy and middle east policy at a really, really difficult time. So how did Barbara Walters make that leap not only from from nbcs today show, but very high profile and then into the anchor chair and then into this kind of interviewing a mega operation . Did she do it all by herself . Did she have allies . I mean, how did she survive that . She had one big ally, and that was runar, the legendary head of abc news and of abc sports before that. And Roone Arledge came into the took over the News Division at a time that both harry and barbara were on the air together. And it was clear this was not a sustainable pairing of two anchors. And Roone Arledge made it clear that he was on barbaras side, that even though barbaras, you know, being anchor was really not barbara strength. But despite that, he saw there were many Harry Reasoner. There was only one Barbara Walters. So Harry Reasoner saw the writing on the wall, went back to cbs and Barbara Walters did not lose her anchor title. But Roone Arledge redefined how the evening news was going to work with where three guys working in different capitals. And barbara is still technically an anchor, but gradually she went back to what she did best, which was the big interview. She didnt she didnt create the big tv interview. I think youd say Edward R Murrow did that. But she expanded it and defined and reshaped it and came to dominate that genre. Yeah, absolutely totally true. The today show experience, where she was clearly always told about second fiddle or third fiddle, or it did that helped her in the later reaching out to a broad or not just politicians and National Leaders but really broadened her access to other figures. So heres a life lesson from Barbara Walters, which is life gives you lemons, make lemonade. Heres how she did that. She had been on the today show when the host was hugh downs, who was very supportive, one of the very few men on the air who supported Barbara Walters in her ambition and later in life and later on abc news and supported her again. Exactly. So hugh downs the exception to the rule of men who were not welcoming Barbara Walters, but he left and was replaced by frank mcgee, who was a serious newsman who had great regard for women journalists. And he set a rule that when were doing an interview together on the nbc set on the today show set, Barbara Walters could not speak until he had asked the first three questions. Now, can you imagine. So she would sit there for the first three questions, waiting her time until it was her turn and she was allowed to speak. It sounds like something that would happen in an iranian taxicab. Right. And really, i think directions from a woman. So what Barbara Walters did was she to arrange her own interviews outside the studio so not remote from washington, not on the nbc set, but in other places in peoples homes and offices with newsmakers who didnt do very many interviews. And this became, of course, her achievement and this ability to do interviews with people in other places, not sitting in an interview suite like this one. And that was the result of necessity early because if she set up an interview and was interviewing someone in their home, she could ask the first question and the second question and the third question and all the others. Yeah now, i want to ask or take a minute to look the kind of environment that the nation was experiencing during this not only the that she came to abc news and the time that she left the anchor and developed this other this new persona role. I had joined news in 1974, tail of 74, and all through that 76, all the way up the 1980 elections. This was a time when america was being torn apart by opposition to the vietnam war, which was dragging on. This was a time in which watergate had still left its sting and the kind of chaos. And it was a very, very news heavy down, very difficult time. And you add to that the fact that women were not were not as evident, were not as part of the i think the world that she went into, especially for women, was much much different than it is today. You one reason i made the subtitle of the book, the life and times of barbara is because i wanted to talk about the times. The times were so different from todays times. You know, its not like its ancient history. Its couple of decades ago. And yet, as you said, a time of such tumultuous for black people in this country, for women in this country. I in so many ways, our nation was undergoing upheavals. And she was she swimming in those waters. You know, she was not. Barbara walters lived a feminist life, but she didnt espouse a feminist agenda. She was very focused on cutting a path for herself and in doing that she cut a path for other women, yourself, like myself, to follow. She made things easier for us by doing what she did. But she was she was pretty focused on her own career. And im just im so its so interesting. You actually were at abc just before she was. Do remember the first time you met her . Oh, i. And its a funny little story. I actually the first time i met her, gerald ford was the brand new president who had been swept in, not elected. But after watergate, president nixon resigned. And thats when i arrived. Nixon left on the south lawn. I came in on the north lawn, and we were in china with gerald ford. And there was a day when some he sat in the hotel waiting for for the phone call to go see mao mao tsetung. But i went with betty ford to all these, you know, she danced at the seven schools. We went to the great wall of china. And barbara also came along on these trips and we were in a museum and those of us who cover the white house know kind of how to tell principal and how to get in close. And barbara kind of around and looked at things and as we came out of the museum she went to the car with her camera crew. But we stood at the doorway of the museum. And we got a great interview with her. And i thought, yeah, shes a today. She was today show host at that point. And it shows that doing, you know, news reporting cut forward to she has arrived at the abc news bureau to to meet everybody and happened to be up on the executive top floor in the ladies room and she came in years later came out and she she she came out she they dont have any towels. Cant afford to have any towels here. And i thought, well, im not going to say that Million Dollar salary is cut our towel allotment, but, you know, she had she had struggles every step the way during during those especially those early months and years. And what did just one i realize youre interviewing me, but just one more question. So youre the white one of the white house reporters. And here comes this bigfoot barbara. What did the White House Press corps think of her . She didnt come to the white house and. Hang with us in the press briefing room. She was a presence, especially during that time where she got the sadat begin. All that was done, obviously away, from the white house. But when we travel wild with her, she was just she was that that new years eve in tehran at midnight, they brought the travel pool. Me and couple of other reporters up to the the elegant ballroom of the the avalon palace. They opened the doors and there was president carter and mrs. Carter shah of iran, king hussein of jordan. And they just all said, happy new year, toast and champagne and everything. And i said, mr. President , youre going to go to egypt tomorrow to see president sadat. Why is that . He went one. Barbara wasnt there because. She and John Chancellor of nbc and some the other bigwigs had been invited to the party they were off dancing somewhere and indeed, a few minutes later, we went back downstairs. The president S Secret Service agent, kiser, came and got me said, the president needs to see you. I came back upstairs and the president said, well, cy vance just told me the secretary state just told me, yes, were going to egypt and meeting president sadat at aswan. So sometimes, you know, being in right place at the right time, but she was always kind of an aura, a part from the working stiffs at the white house. Well, thats an example of good sourcing when you know where the president s going to go the next. And he doesnt. Yeah, lets move to what the part of the barbara years at abc news i knew the best central casting could not have designed to more more perfect protagonists than Barbara Walters and diane sawyer. I mean thats the stuff they could make movies. Mike nichols could a movie out of that. Mike nichols who was diane sawyer husband . Yes Roone Arledge, who had been barbaras protect her and who was barbaras most important person, professional relationship had been courting diane sawyer to come over from cbs, courting her for close to a year. And she finally agreed to come over. And only then did barbara hear about it. And she saw this as a betrayal that hiring would be directly in competition for the big interviews that were her signature. And, you know, in other, diane sawyer pushed, everybody for Barbara Walters. Barbara walters had a speech anomaly. But diane sawyer spoke very gracious gracefully. Barbara walters didnt think she was beautiful. Well, what . Diane sawyer is one of the most beautiful women in. American television news. Barbara walters had had to scrap and struggle every step of the way and diane sawyer to have a much easier path to getting to this job of being of anchoring her own interview show on abc and i think that diane, who i interviewed for the book was taken aback by the ferocity of the rivalry that barbara greeted her with. What astonishes and again i was white house in washington i was not in new york when when the two of them competed to try to get the same newsmaker interviews. But i do remember didnt see it as it happened. Bill clinton was president. United states. And as people may know, the white house hands out Network Interview not to the white house reporters, but to the big anchor stars. And it was kind of abc sees turn what happened. So Roone Arledge decreed Roone Arledge the head of the News Division decree, said that it was turn and diane would get if the network got a bill clinton interview, which wasnt guaranteed, but they thought was entirely possible. That it was supposed to go to diane and talk about ignoring a rule. Barbara walters went around the system, lobbied mike mccurry, the press secretary, and others explain not only why she should get the interview, but why diane sawyer should not and the abc, Washington Bureau chief robin sproul, who was in the middle of this and had been much involved in listen to everybody it is dianes turn. Diane is going to get this interview if we get. She got a call from white house from the press secretary who said, youre getting the interview and weve decided its going to. Barbara. So, robin understood that this was going to cause some internal consternation. So she calls, Roone Arledge, and says the good news is weve got the interview. Clinton the bad news is the white house is giving it to barbara and he exploded in anger because it was the latest. It was the straw broke the camels back in terms barbaras rivalry with diane, which had made diane very unhappy, which diane was complaining about. And roone always said to the Washington Bureau chief of turn it down, tell them we wont take it. Which is, as you know, unheard of, totally unheard. You dont turn down an interview with the president because. They wont give it to the the chosen one, you or not . Thats right. Thats thats not thats not the way it works. And the Washington Bureau, you tried to talk to said this will become a story. This will not be kept quiet. This is the refusal to if we if we turn this interview now, the world will know it and it will be embarrassing. And roone always said, turn it down and hung up. Now, robin sproul, who is a friend of mine, robin, tried to think about how to explain to the white house that abc was turning down this prime president ial interview. She was still trying to figure that when Roone Arledge assistant called her back and said, have you done that thing that roone asked to do . And robin said, no. And