Well, so to speak, even the places have been finalized, several options of places have been selected, which, for example, are now the largest two most authoritative places, this is where the arch of freedom of ukraine has now been renamed the former arch of friendship of peoples, this is the first point, because i succeeded in the disposition and it was initially discussed as one of the most likely locations, and the second location, we talked with the director of the lavra nature reserve, with mr. Ostapenko and near the lavra there is an ancient kyiv locus, solyana hirka, where this famous bishop pavlo of moscow is mercedes was building the patriarchy, and mercedes was building some illegal buildings there, and this locus is also considered as one of the possible locations for the construction of such a national pantheon, but so far the government has not been there for several months, several years. Accepts and underestimates, well, i understand, the war is now the draft concept of this pantheon, because the logic was like this, which means a threelevel system of remembrance, sectors of military burials in all the population, there were more than four hundred of them, in the 15th and 16th year, that is, in all cemeteries there is a sector of military burials, this is the first level, the second level, the National MilitaryMemorial Cemetery near kyiv , a large space, which we will talk about further, and the third level is the national pantheon, a certain symbolic one. The point in the center, i. E. This logic, this architecture memory system, it was proposed by the institute, in principle it seems quite logical to me, of course it is somewhat classical, it is more classical, but considering that we do not have such an infrastructure, it is very good, for all kinds of innovative things, because now in fact, we have to build what you are talking about, and this is a classic for the nation, but in general, the world trends, that we are coming to a new culture of memories, so we have to. Complete this gestalt of the old classic and not hinder creation further new memorials, for example , the cross of heroes memorial was recently opened, in the gcc it was actually practiced in vyshgorod, this is an example of such a modern memorial, and i have already said about glory park, which is located in the center of the city, in the center of kyiv, yes, by the way , not far from the lavra, not far from the museum of the future museum. Sea, ah, not far from this stele, which is now there, ah, and this place itself, this glory park was built back in 1957, and some soviet soldiers are buried there, some ukrainians, some not ukrainians, it seems that there are 24 graves there, yes, the fact is that there is, there is an eternal fire, and this place, due to the fact that it was not there, was rethought, it became the place where the eyes passed, on may 9, soviet communist prorussian such rallies, you remember how people walked from Arsenalna Square there under red symbols, under soviet symbols, eh, and here i am all the time, what am i thinking about, anton, i am all the time thinking, looking at this place, about how , which is a place in the center of warsaw, a place to honor the heroes of different wars and. Different eras, this place on pilsudski square, in the center of warsaw, under the colonnade of the saxon palace, there is a grave for an unknown soldier, yes, and it is written there here lies a polish soldier who died for his homeland. The idea is to honor all those who died for poland. There are 18 shields with the names of various battles in. Decisive for poland and there are urns, 24 urns from the 24 battlefields of the Second World War, the eternal flame of honor. And so on. Volodymyr zelenskyi was there, bowing to the memory of an actually unknown soldier. My question is so long with a long leadin to why couldnt we bury you there in our park, the kyiv park of glory, bury the threshold of our soldiers from various battlefields and make it a pantheon. This, it seems to me, was the best place of memory, and a place, such a symbolic sign of commemoration of the unknown. Ukrainian soldier, i would like to simply note that the pantheon, at least in the concept that is currently being discussed, is not only a military pantheon, because the ukrainian community, the ukrainian nation, as well as the ukrainian space, is created not only by military glory, outstanding artists, scientists, creators, they are now seriously discussing the topic, so that the pantheon reflects these different stages of progress, and these were the great princes of the past, hetmans, writers. That is, people, representatives of different groups, and there is something in this, it does not mean that we do not need to have a separate war memorial, a proper one, because the war memorial in the capital and the war memorial are two different memorial objects with two different functions, here thats why its just such a bandwagon, now why didnt we do this, its a problematic question, why, because it shows, in particular, our attitude as a community to the memory of the Second World War. Because the russian narrative, all these scripros, they tried to instrumentalize the place of memory of the Second World War, how to stop it, if it is the russian world, the soviet space, and so on, and they did not succeed to the end, for example, the Museum Second ukraine in the Second World War, they tried very hard to create a space of such a soviet symbol from it, but they did not succeed, that is, the museum itself was destroyed, and the scientists themselves were destroyed, and it was against the place, therefore. On the one hand , no one would have even thought of the 90s2000s, because it was not a problematized memory of the Second World War, after the 2000s, even after the adoption of anti communist decommunization laws in 2015, if you look carefully look, in the package of decommunization laws there was a package, there was a law on perpetuating the memory of defeating nazism in the Second World War, and this law is a painting of all parties of the parliament at that time in that they do not touch the memory of the Second World War, not for. That is, a conscious compromise the hall votes decommunization, ukrainian culture , so to speak, does not touch the subject of the Second World War in a critical sense, well, in the sense of reinterpretation, because the ancient greek krine is a weighing, yes, that is, it does not reconsider, thus, on the one hand, the decommunization legislation launched this process of eradicating the soviet, but on the other hand , they put a taboo on touching the topic of the Second World War, that is, they were not afraid, they could not trade. This is already the second question, that is, this topic of the Second World War and a serious rethinking, it is for the russians, it was fundamental, because this is part of the scrap, for part of society, this discourse never took place in the 90s, it turned out, well, everyone understands that this is an important memory, because we lost from eight to 10 Million People in the Second World War, this a neverdisappearing topic for us, but how to approach, how to touch the overgrowth, if even the political leadership, the top president , the parliament could not touch it. These topics were never touched even before a fullscale war, already only with the adoption of laws on submission of the imperial heritage, these fuses were actually removed, and now we can seriously talk about it, and no one touched it before, not even the most great and bright patriots who tried alone there, in particular the institute of National Memory tried to raise this, but at the highest level it was all extinguished, well , i remember how dare Viktor Yushchenko touch this, he even speaking near this. The very museum of the Second World War, he once invited soviet veterans and soldiers of the upa, he said that all the people who fought in the Second World War for the independence of ukraine are our heroes, we are them we honor, and you remember what noise there was then, how people did not perceive, that is , society was not ready, not only the Political Class, society, well, and now we are ready, what prevented us from doing it after the 15th14th year these. As if this sacredness has fallen, so this madness has fallen, but we already have 10 years of war, now what is there to be done, lets say there, after the 15th , sacredness did not fall, i say, laws, decommunization laws this is 2015 year, they capture the inviolability of this theme, see what the architecture of this looks like according to the law, except for the places connected with the memory of the Second World War, except for the monuments of the Second World War, everything is excluded, that is, what was this space for . Put on hold, well, dont throw it away, i dont think anyone is saying that in slavi park, you should throw out the pra from the graves, you dont need to bury it, so that it stops being only soviet. See, to change , that is, what a healthy process of working with complex memory looks like, we are launching a public debate, scientists, society, Civil Society, Civil Society institutions with the support of the state, it continues there for several years, maybe five years , yes, that is, he considers how, for example, questions are asked, that it is necessary to change the memorial series of memorials, change the name, for example, not 41, 45, but 30. 945 and so on, this is an idea that is launched , the state has to support this discourse, not to impose a ban, yes, roughly speaking, that the monuments are not touched at all, are untouched, but says that it is necessary to rethink the fix at the political level refers, and this was not done, respectively, the first part is a public expert discussion, the second part, the state accepts the results of the public expert discussion, the third part , the state supports key objects, starts financing and shows examples, then on the ground already. Local selfgovernment bodies have their local memorials, this is how it should look, each of these stages can occupy for several years, it was never launched in 2015, and we are only just there , i can say for sure that in the 19th and 20th, we launched this discourse about the submission of the imperial legacy, which is called decolonization, and at the legal level we began to promote it , and here on ours, yes so to speak, our request is irritating, as the state reacted to the academic environment. Thats why this issue is easier now after the start of the war, so if this process does not happen by itself, it will not happen, leadership is needed here, because it cannot, for example, lets imagine a person, an engineer, a biology teacher or a salesperson or a saleswoman or a professor i dont know medicine there, they live their normal lives, no one thinks about what is there at the arsenal with the memorial, they know that the Second World War is there, it is somehow connected with grandfathers and everything, grandfathers, grandmothers who fought he, if someone does not initiate this discussion, will not ask a valid question, and why not rebury other heroes there, they are like that, well, yes, it is a good story, but this voice of the one who asks this question should be the voice of the state, so that people seriously before this post , this was never done, until, well , roughly speaking, in the 20th year, somewhere in the 22nd, when the threat of russia was already hanging in the air, and even before the symbolic spaces, the last question that i will put before the conversation about military memorials. The complex is a fairy tale, thats for for me, a fairytale cemetery, a fairytale cemetery is the principle of such a valuable schizophrenia, yes , when opposite the dissidents, the graves of the dissidents stus, lytvyn and tykhoi, the cemetery of the burial of some kagebi generals, that is, it just sounds, well, like some kind of absurdity and sur, yes, when opposite the graves mykolaichuk. Very modestly stands such a snowwhite marble figure of the executor of the executor of the executor of the executor of the executor of the murder of the executor of the executor of the murder of gongadza, that is, what to do with it, when it is the central central, there is a cemetery, and on the central avenue, in fact, the entire central alley and all the most prestigious places, they are occupied, if not by kagybi generals and secretaries of the Central Committee of the communist party of ukraine. Well, with all due respect to Football Players, now and now there is a completely different value trend, so now they are Football Players and some peoples deputies of the party of regions and so on, what to do with it . Well, in such cases , the best way is a special program or efforts of the state to on. To the strength of these loci associated with, for example, we are now discussing the restoration of the grave of lesya ukrainka, the very fairytale center, well, it is not in proper condition, as for the level of such and such a person for our society, accordingly, if the state, for example , will change, restore the alleys, highlight, that is, illuminate, modernize, put up appropriate memorials to hrushevsky, lesya and other figures, it will be this gesture that will change this symbolic. Space, but it is not only good wishes, it and a political understanding of this process, b leadership, so that, for example, during a war , we can say, we will allocate a certain amount of funds for this from the budget, because there is no one there, or plus the budget, plus a patron, that is, it is a political responsibility, to say that this it will be so, because it is right, and the third story is to allocate these funds, uh, for years, the 90s, 2000s, decades, everyone just talked about the fact that culture is important, even now a lot of people say that culture is important , this is a strategic area. But as soon as it comes to budget appointments, i just dont say thats it to change, but to show, the state must set an example, it must say, here we have processed the top memorial, all the bodies of local selfgovernment, i think this is the business , well, yes, it means it is important, because the state does not only talk, but does, then no one would , the only exception is yushchenko, and then only in projects related to the holodomor, and , that is, zayushchenko it ceased to differ words, ceased to differ from case to case in matters of memorialization, because the first phase of memorials was built, they were made around the country, but this was just a drop in the ocean it was only the beginning, so the systematicity of this was never, unfortunately, in the field of culture, and i would also comment on. Er, the quote of schopenhauer with which you started this conversation, the fact is that this is a reason , that a nation consists of dead heroes, but if a nation consists only of dead heroes, it turns into some kind of antique, not a living nation, what is important to us is a nation that remembers, honors and in a symbolic space records the importance, like such beacons of of the past, the light they send forward into the future fixes these heroes of these outstanding figures of the past, but makes them part of living life, living discussion, society, scientists, because if this does not happen, well, we will have beautiful folios and dead memorials, which simply no one will go to, we have to think of how to , how to connect, so actually this bar, which the heroes set for us, and in this sense, and i want to continue your opinion, specifically about the neglect of graves, lets say, you said about lesya, many other graves, ukrainian writers, such repressed writers, historical figures who are very are now in a neglected state, i had a discussion with my polish colleagues , we were arguing about some historical facts, about some historical facts, and my polish colleague said you just go and look at the grave of stus, in what form do you have your National Genius . Grave, and then i actually started to think about who should take care of the graves, yes, if not everyone has families there, or if they cant, or as in the case of the ukrainian woman, there is no one, this is an institution of National Memory, this is some kind of , these are some city services, how is this must work legally, it now looks like this, if there is a cemetery such as baikov, who has a special status there . The Relevant Services of this cemetery are municipal , by the way, it belongs to the city of kyiv, they are obliged to take care of it, but it is one thing to take care of it in the sense of a couple of times a year , to update the inscription in the oldschool way, and another thing is to raise funds, start a public discussion in the process of attracting attention, for example, we met with representatives of the kyiv city state administration, z the ministry of culture proactively, because there is. An initiative person mariana tomen from the ministry of culture, this topic is very important to me since the time when we initiated the change of the inscription there to and it is good that hanna starustenko from the kmda agreed, well, she reacted well to it and we have already found several patrons there from volyn who are ready to finance the project, because there you cant just come and make it beautiful, you have to make a project, it has to pass an examination, and this is an example of caring at the level, but it did not arise because that there is some big. Program, and these are caring citizens who use their duty as Civil Servants to do good deeds, and in essence this is what hlibovytskyi calls mastery of ones own state, and in fact, when it does not become something foreign to us, but becomes the norm, because thats what you have to do, you have to occupy your state and use it for the common good of all members of the state, accordingly, this is such an option, but in a good way, it should be civil and. Tives of business, which sho