Transcripts For GBN Jacob 20240703

Starts now. Ill also be joined by sarah oral panel this evening. The editor of conservative home, paul goodman, and gb news senior political commentator nigel nelson. As always , i want to nelson. As always, i want to hear from you. Its a crucial part of the programme. Email me, mailmogg gbnews. Com. But now its time the of the its time for the news of the day with polly middlehurst. Jake webb, thanks very much indeed. Lets begin this news bulletin with some breaking news thats just come to us in the last few minutes. Were hearing from terror group hamas. It from the terror group hamas. It says released two hostages, says its released two hostages, we. And according to we understand. And according to hamas, families have been hamas, their families have been informed. We also gather that the two hostages may be elderly people. Its not known at this stage any other further details. But we do know that local Israeli Television channel 12 have repeated this report, which would seem to suggest there is something to this report from hamas. We dont know at this stage whether those hostages are israeli or whether they have dual nationality, but that news to us in the last ten minutes or so, hamas says it has released two hostages. And we understand israeli local tv is reporting that that is the case. If we get any more on that, of course, we will bring it to you right here, gb news. Now, today, the Prime Minister has confirmed that the gaza hospital blast last week was likely caused by a missile launching towards israel. Rishi sunak says the hospital blast was caused by a missile or part of one that came from within gaza. He also said the uk is providing an additional £20 million in aid to civilians in gaza, as well as deploying raf and royal naval personnel to the region. Region. The British Government judges that the explosion was likely caused by a missile or part of one that was launched from within gaza towards israel. The within gaza towards israel. The misreporting of this incident had a negative effect in the region on including on a vital Us Diplomatic effort and on tensions here at home. We need to learn the lessons and ensure that in future there is no rush. That in future there is no rush. To judgement. To judgement. Meanwhile, the met Police Commissioner has told the home secretary today the government may need to toughen up the law on crime and terrorism. It on hate crime and terrorism. It comes rowley met comes after sir mark rowley met with braverman khan to with Suella Braverman khan to discuss forces decision not discuss the forces decision not to protesters, calling to arrest protesters, calling for jihad against israel at forjihad against israel at demonstrations over the weekend, sir mark said horrific and gruesome attacks by hamas had already aggravate did our own terrorist threats in the uk with hate crime against jewish communities, up 31 fold compared to this time last year . Sir mark said. 34 arrests have been made, so far and the force is trying to identify another 22 suspect. S from photography. Were cancelled the law we cant enforce taste or decency , cant enforce taste or decency, but we can enforce the law conversation has finished really around the line of the law and its our job to enforce to that line. Its parliaments job to draw that line and the thought that maybe events of the moment are illustrating. Maybe some of the lines arent quite in the right place. Meanwhile, a London Underground driver who led a free palestine chant on his packed train has been suspended. Three hope you will have a blessed day today. Look after yourself after heanng look after yourself after hearing that on social media, transport for london, said the driver who led the chant on saturday was suspended pending their pending their further investigation. The incident happened on saturday as around 100,000 protesters took part in pro palestinian demonstrations in london, footage posted online by journalists appeared to show the chant being led over the trains speaker system. Now a trains speaker system. Now a body has been found in the search for a man who was reported as being trapped in his vehicle in floodwater. Later in aberdeenshire in scotland. Aberdeenshire in scotland. Meanwhile, a man who died after a tree struck his van near forfar in angus during storm babet on thursday has been named as john gillen, the 56 year old was pronounced dead at the scene following the incident. Youre following the incident. Youre with gb news across the uk on tv in your car, on Digital Radio and on your Smart Speaker by saying play gb news. This is britains news channel. On britains news channel. On centre oral to the israel palestine debate is the question of moral equivalence. Question of moral equivalence. Time and again we see an attempt to equate the israeli state with hamas or indeed the actions of the idf with the indiscriminate acts of Hamas Terrorists. But as ive said on this program before, there no this program before, there is no real equivalence. Over the real moral equivalence. Over the weekend, moral disparity weekend, this moral disparity displayed itself clearly on the streets of london. A pro palestine march took place in which 100,000 people were on the streets in support of palestine. Now, most of these, the vast majority of these were peaceful and merely exercising their legitimate right to protest. However there is equally no doubt that this movement has provided a space for extremists to thrive. A for extremists to thrive. A rally was held by the known Islamist Group hizb ut tahrir , Islamist Group hizb ut tahrir, in which the speakers called for jihad , and the only solution is jihad, and the only solution is jihad, and the only solution is jihad by the armies of the muslim countries , not by you. Muslim countries, not by you. Me, who we are training to our help. There are people with arms in egypt, in pakistan , in arms in egypt, in pakistan, in saudi arabia , in in jordan, saudi arabia, in in jordan, across the muslim world. You might say that this is just a few fringe actors, but if you brought the picture out, you could see from the footage that there were hundreds of people present. Hizb ut tahrir stated aim is the re establishment of the caliphate and the global enforcement of sharia. Islamic law, a figurehead for the group, has called Hamas Terrorists heroes. But this event posed heroes. But this event posed a difficult challenge for the police as the metropolitan Police Statement said after the event. The word jihad has event. The word jihad has a number of meanings , but we know number of meanings, but we know the public will most commonly associated with terrorism specialist officers have assessed the video and have not identified any offences arising from the specific clip. We have also sought advice from the Specialist Crown Prosecution Service who have reached Service Lawyers who have reached the same conclusion. Well, it the same conclusion. Well, it didnt there. An individual didnt end there. An individual had this to say at protest had this to say at the protest at a local bar. Nana to lawyer ella toone matthew laza. Nana to lala. Lala matthew laza. Nana to lala. Lala to eliyahu nana. Eliyahu nana to to eliyahu nana. Eliyahu nana to originally , the metropolitan originally, the metropolitan Police Released the following statement the flags in this photograph are not those of isis. They are the shahada, which is a declaration of faith in islam. Isis flags may appear similar, but are not the same. We have specialist officers with knowledge of flags working on this operation to assist with these assessments, but when the Canadian Human Rights activist yasmin mohammed, among others, translate the arabic of this individual as may allahs curse, be on infidels , may allahs be on infidels, may allahs curse, be on the jews. The curse, be on the jews. The metropolitan deleted its metropolitan Police Deleted its tweet announced the tweet and announced the individual had been arrested tweet and announced the indivi suspicion|een arrested tweet and announced the indivi suspicion ofn arrested tweet and announced the indivi suspicion of incitement to under suspicion of incitement to racial hatred. This not racial hatred. This is not particularly easy for the police. And as the metropolitan Police Commissioner, sir mark rowley, said today, the line of the must drawn by the law must be drawn by politicians, by the police. Politicians, not by the police. And fair enough. Were and this is fair enough. Were always discussing this always discussing on this programme balance between programme the balance between free and counter Free Expression and counter extremism laws. But make no extremism laws. But make no mistake about these individuals, their flags and their chants, they are islamist extremists. Meanwhile, on sunday, a vigil was held by the British Jewish Community calling for the return of hostages. Obe been brought of hostages. Obe been brought this. There were no calls for this. There were no calls for jihad in islamist rallies, no curses upon ethnic minorities, no fighting with the police , no no fighting with the police, no balaclavas, no smoke grenades , balaclavas, no smoke grenades, just the National Anthem and a commemoration of the deceased. But in any movement, commemoration of the deceased. But in any movement , there is but in any movement, there is a duty to draw a line around the extremists who feel empowered by it, to expose them and to root them out. As the case of idf and hamas, there is no moral equivalence. As always, i want to hear from you. Let me know your thoughts. At your thoughts. May almog at gbnews. Com. Particularly gb news. Com. Im particularly pleased gbnews. Com. Im particularly pleased this evening to be joined by david lord anderson, who served as the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation between 2011 and 2017. David thank you for coming in and do you think, first of all, that the police have the powers they need to arrest extremists and differentiate between extremists and freedom of speech . Theyve got a pretty full arsenal of powers where terrorist speeches concerned after the attacks on london, you might remember in 2005, the bombing attacks on the tube and the bus, the Parliament Debated and then passed into law. A new offence of encouraging terrorism. And that includes terrorism. And that includes saying anything that glorifies terrorism. If youre trying to terrorism. If youre trying to encourage other people to emulate it , encourage other people to emulate it, then even before that, we had an offence of inciting support for a terrorist organisation. Hamas of course, is a terrorist organisation , not is a terrorist organisation, not just its military wing, but the whole hamas government is a terrorist organisation. Ian and we tightened that one up, as you might remember, in 2019. So that if you express support for a terrorist organisation or agreement with its beliefs, then that constitutes incitement. If that constitutes incitement. If you are reckless as to its effect on other people, then beyond that you mentioned in your clip the offence of inciting racial hatred, calling down curses on the jews is a clear example of that inciting hatred on grounds of religion. Hatred on grounds of religion. The jews would qualify both as a race and as a religious group. So theres a pretty comprehensive armoury of criminal offences, incidentally, with very high maximum penalties. You can get 14 or 15 years for inciting support or encouraging terrorism. So the Police Coming out, the commissioner of the metropolitan Police Coming out and saying the politicians need to redraw the line isnt really fair on the politicians , is it, that theyve politicians, is it, that theyve got the powers they need, but they have used their discretion often to enforce likely when people have been saying really some pretty appalling things. Well those powers were intensely debated in parliament. I remember the debates on religious hatred where you should draw the line, the debates on glorifying terrorism and the initial proposal was that any glorification of terrorism would be punished. And terrorism would be punished. And then someone pointed out that Nelson Mandela was a was a terrorist. Robert, the bruce was a terrorist. And terrorism goes back in time. It goes across national boundaries. It was national boundaries. So it was it slightly reduced. But it was slightly reduced. But i must say, i think it would would have been surprising to a lot of people who were in parliament dunng people who were in parliament during debates to feel during those debates to feel that people could with impunity be jihad in that be chant for jihad in that context, on the streets of london and not be punished for it. And the sympathy, i suppose, one has the police is that one has for the police is that the chants need to be translated. The flags need to be translated. They say they have specialist but that specialist officers, but that clearly a of time, clearly takes a bit of time, whereas many people whereas i think many people would to see arrests made would like to see arrests made on the spot and people chanting abuse pulled out of crowds immediately. Immediately. Yes. I mean, certainly the main obligation of the police, as it seems to me, when it comes to a rally or a procession of that kind, is to protect other people. So no one should be intimidated or threatened or harassed. And the only way you can deal with that is by acting at and it is difficult at the time. And it is difficult and understand that the jihad and i understand that the jihad in incident might have related to the question of who are they actually calling on. And if they were standing outside an embassy, as i believe they were , embassy, as i believe they were, and summoning the muslim armies of the arab to world assist hamas, then at least arguably , hamas, then at least arguably, they werent inciting support. They werent inciting support. They werent encouraging hamas itself. They were encouraging other people. But it was a pretty fine distinction. Thats a pretty tidy distinction, isnt it, to say that if youre inside a legitimate authority to support an Illegitimate Authority that is legitimate, but if youre just inciting the Illegitimate Authority directly , Illegitimate Authority directly, thats illegitimate . Well, perhaps this is what happens when you have lawyers with you, which, course, police did which, of course, the police did have. They crime have. I mean, they had crime prosecution with Prosecution Service lawyers with them were doubt bending them who were no doubt bending over backwards to be fair. But, over backwards to be fair. But, yes, it was perhaps a surprising outcome , bearing in mind the outcome, bearing in mind the strength of the laws that the police have at their side. And this seems to be much less of a freedom of speech issue than you might have thought it would be thought that it would be perfectly reasonable for somebody chant, saying that somebody to chant, saying that palestine should have its own territory or that the people of palestine should be treated and carefully if israel retaliates, all of that would be perfectly legitimate. Nobody would be questioning it. But this is actually chanting that is saying the terrorist acts are right and jihad, this word that can mean so many things is clearly being used to mean a war against the infidel and the jews. Well, i mean, i wasnt there from your clip. I would agree. As you know, jihad, its one of these words a bit like crusade for christians. You know, you can having a moral can talk about having a moral crusade. It doesnt mean youre actually wanting to the actually wanting to slit the throats of muslims. And equally, that the shaheed flag, that flag, the shaheed flag, looks like isis flag, looks very like the isis flag, but contains holy texts. But it contains holy texts. So i suppose the other thing the police had to bear in mind is that in the realm of that they were in the realm of religious and for religious expression. And for that reason they felt they had to very gently and then to tread very gently and then come out and say that its all the politicians fault in the end, which seems a bit of a wet response. Well, i think i should say ive got Great Respect for mark rowley. I had a lot to do with him aftermath of the with him in the aftermath of the Manchester Attack and the london attacks he was in attacks of 2017 when he was in charge counter terrorism. And charge of counter terrorism. And when he stopped doing that job, charge of counter terrorism. And when he he pped doing that job, charge of counter terrorism. And when he he thoughting that job, charge of counter terrorism. And when he he thought hedlat job, charge of counter terrorism. And when he he thought hed retired he when he thought hed retired from spent two from the police, he spent two years his own time, you know, years of his own time, you know, looking into this and looking into whether there was a gap in the had to be filled. The law that had to be filled. But think if hes right but i think even if hes right in his prescription , i dont in his prescription, i dont think it would have made any difference here. I mean, what he is saying is that there should be laws to criminalise the creation of a space where terrorism can take root. In other words, he wants to take the law a step further back from the law a step further back from the actual commission of a violent act. And try to penalise groups who dont themselves preach violence. And his book, preach violence. And his book, tahrir, is an example of this. Its an Islamist Group. You its an Islamist Group. You know, you could compare it in a way to a communist group, if you like. They want a state founded on different principles. Prince apples inimical to the apples entirely inimical to the democratic way of life, but they dont espouse violent means of getting there. And even if you do that, then im not sure you solve the problem of people calling for a different kind of jihad. But i calling for a different kind of jihad. But i think calling for a different kind of jihad. But i think i calling for a different kind of jihad. But i think i think also when you do that, you create a few dangers because because you start asking the police is to get into quite a political realm, which we dont want to do because we want to maintain freedom of speech. And therefore were probably on the right balance where on about the right balance where we are. If only the police acted. David, thank you. Acted. Well. David, thank you. Thank for coming on thank you so much for coming on with me now is yasmin mohammed, who as well as half who as well as being half palestinian, is canadian human palestinian, is a Canadian Human Rights activist who has shone a light on islamist extremism across west. Thank you so across the west. Thank you so much for joining across the west. Thank you so much forjoining me, yasmin. Much for joining me, yasmin. Youve written an article recently explaining about your concerns for People Living in gaza and how they are treated by hamas. I wondered if you could try and explain the difference so that people understand and that the People Living in gaza are not all hamas supporters and wont all be advocating terrorism . Um, yes , thats terrorism . Um, yes, thats absolutely correct. I think first and foremost, people get confused when they see these, um , you know, free see these, um, you know, free palestine rallies. They dont palestine rallies. They dont recognise that there are that gaza has a bit of a different, uh, situation than , you know, uh, situation than, you know, what is the Palestinian Authority like . The west bank. So gaza has been independent for a while since like 2005, i believe , and they have had since believe, and they have had since 2015. Uh, i believe, and they have had since 2015. Uh, | might believe, and they have had since 2015. Uh, i might be getting my dates wrong. Theyve had the Hamas Terrorists as their government. They have been their leaders. So they have been the ones that have been excuse me, responsible for you know, the unemployment, the dirty water, the electricity that cuts out for hours at a time. The electricity that cuts out for hours at a time. Um, and for hours at a time. Um, and people have been very unhappy with their leadership, but they are a terrorist organisation at the end of the day and you cant exactly vote them out once theyve been voted in. And that was a mistake that a lot of people made based on the propaganda and the lies that they were sold by hamas. And of they were sold by hamas. And of course, its theres no doubt that there are a lot of people in gaza that do support hamas. In gaza that do support hamas. Um, but i think the larger majority of them are just afraid and they are afraid of the for their families and for themselves. So how much Popular Support do you think hamas has in gaza now considering that its fails to provide clean water and so on . And the fear that if people were to free express a view, what view do you think they would express . Well, polls that were done in july. So not too long ago were showing Something Like over 60 of people in gaza were saying that they do not want hamas leadership anymore. They would rather be under the Palestinian Authority, just like the west bank. So they they were already saying, you know , please stop saying, you know, please stop chanting for the death of israel and all israelis, please try and have a two state solution. Go back to the borders that were created in 1967. Again, the numbers arent great. You know, theyre like 5050, pretty much. Theyre like 5050, pretty much. You know, i wish they were higher, but it is a lot more than i think what people are getting from seeing these rallies all across the western world. You know, were in australia. Theyre screaming , australia. Theyre screaming, gassed the jews and all over the world. Theyre singing their chanting hiba hiba, which is a reference to a genocide of jewish people by mohammed. So jewish people by mohammed. So people tend to think that these are cousins, that these are people from gaza, but theyre not these are people that are just purely anti semitic most of the time or useful idiots that really dont understand whats going on and probably couldnt find, you know , gaza on a map. Find, you know, gaza on a map. So i think whats whats going on here is that the voices of the people have, first of all, been dampened by hamas. And now been dampened by hamas. And now theyre continuing to be dampened by other extremists all over the world who are just chanting a lot louder than they are. Well, thank you very much, yasmin. Youve explained something i think, of fundamental importance that people mustnt confuse the innocent People Living in gaza with terrorists of hamas. With the terrorists of hamas. Dont to let me know your dont forget to let me know your thoughts. Margaret gb news dot com. Next, an com. Coming up next, an International Lawyer has gone viral taking the bbc task viral for taking the bbc to task on question of war crimes, on the question of war crimes, and joining me in a and shell be joining me in a moment. Plus, will be assessing the role of multiculturalism in these protests. Youre listening to gb news radio. Welcome back. Radio. Welcome back. Im still jacob rees mogg. And yes , this is still a state and yes, this is still a state of the nation. And youve been getting in touch with your thoughts for which many thanks. Robert we need to remember robert jacob we need to remember that the weekends that the people at the weekends demonstrations supporting demonstrations are supporting palestine. Are not palestine. Most are not supporting and hugh, supporting hamas. And hugh, although the crisis in the middle east is at the front of our minds at this difficult time, i hope that neither media or Political Tension upon ukraine diluted. Thats ukraine will be diluted. Thats a important you ive a very important point. You ive said this program before, said on this program before, there moral equivalence there is no moral equivalence between and the israeli between hamas and the israeli government. Israel is a liberal government. Israel is a liberal Democratic State and it therefore subscribes the International Rules based order. And comes and with that comes responsibility for a proportionate response. Hamas is a proscribed terrorist organisation. Israel has been organisation. Israel has been accused of war crimes in both gaza and in the west bank. But under the un convention, a country has the right to defend itself from armed attack. Even itself from armed attack. Even when committed war crimes when hamas committed war crimes such as the slaughtering of 40 babies or the gunning down of innocent unarmed civilians. Israel responded, in my israel has responded, in my view, legitimate. Utley of view, legitimate. Utley of course, israel makes mistakes like any government does. We like any government does. We made mistakes in the wars waged in iraq or afghanistan, for example. But not to see the example. But not to see the fundamental distinction between accidental damage and flat out terrorism is not to take this subject seriously. Well, my next guest was interviewed about these allegations of israeli war crimes on the bbc over the weekend. And every strike that weekend. And every strike that israel takes , every military israel takes, every military action is weighed up. It is analysed to make sure that according to International Law, the anticipated Collateral Damage, the harm to civilians is proportionate to the military. Aims of a strike, a strike that is militarily necessary, necessary and legitimately targets terrorist infrastructure. So these suggestions of collective punishment are morally reprehensible. Liable. Morally reprehensible. Liable. Im joined now by natasha harsdorf, International Lawyer and barrister. Natasha, thank you for coming in. One of the key things you discussed was the question of collective punishment. Question of collective punishment. How would you define collective punishment and what is it lawful for a state to do and what is it not lawful for a state to do . Well, this is a term weve been hearing deployed frequently, and its in explicably linked with the same false allegations of war crimes which were even repeated the which were even repeated in the chamber in parliament this afternoon. It is that sort of afternoon. It is that sort of misrepresentation of the facts before we even get to the law, which i think is at the heart of so much of the vitriol that we have been seeing pouring out against israel , as you have against israel, as you have already been covering, even on the streets of the uk. But the misrepresentations of International Law go to the issue of proportionality that i addressed in that clip youve just played and the sickening equivalence, which is suggested of comparing casualty figures on both sides , its both sides, its misrepresentations like that, that serve to cloud the issue at and hoodwink people so that they dont properly understand what is israel is required to do under the laws of armed conflict. And importantly , they conflict. And importantly, they are fooled into thinking that israel is in fact breaking International Law. So what is israel allowed to do . There have been considerable concerns, for example, about water not being supplied to gaza. Is it legitimate to cut off water when you are facing a terrorist attack from a particular territory . Particular territory . The starting point is that israel isnt required under International Law to supply by anything, certainly not to hamas, who is striving, even in the course of your broadcast, there have been rocket continued rocket fire onto israeli civilians and there is no International Legal requirement for israel to provide anything to gaza. The only provision under article 23 of the Fourth Geneva Convention is to facilitate the supply of aid and suppues facilitate the supply of aid and supplies by third parties, as if they are not going to be diverted to hamas. Now, some of your previous contributors have talked about hamas , a violent talked about hamas, a violent control over the gaza strip after they violently seized control in two thousand and seven. That is not a question as to whether or not hamas will seize the supplies that are now being let in through the rafah crossing. Israel has committed to continue that supply of humanitarian aid, even in these circumstances, even though it doesnt have an obligation under International Law to do so. Its going above and beyond its requirements. Requirements. And this is very difficult for a Democratic State because it could be in legal terms , much it could be in legal terms, much more brutal than it is actually wise to be. Is that fair . Its not only that. And if i can supplement your introduction , brian, theres also a positive obugafion , brian, theres also a positive obligation on not just on israel, but all States Parties to the convention on genocide for israel to take a very robust response here. But as in previous operations, and this has been well documented and competently commented on by legal and military experts, israel has always strived to ensure the minimal civilian Collateral Damage and the warnings that it issues to civilians through Text Messages in previous operations and phone calls to individual households. Calls to individual households. As the process of knock on roof. As the process of knock on roof. A final warning to any civilians in a building before its struck. All of those processes that ,. All of those processes that, in fact israel has championed , in fact israel has championed, which many armies dont follow , which many armies dont follow, even western liberal, democratic human rights protecting armies, and that is the reality which is so far from the libels that we have been hearing. And allegations of war crimes are extremely easy to make. They are are extremely difficult to unpick because the factual circumstance is are being so badly misrepresented, as we found when israel was accused of bombing the hospital, which rishi sunak confirmed in the house of commons earlier on, now looks almost certain to have been a hamas faulty rocket anyway , they and sadly thats anyway, they and sadly thats nothing new because, of course, youll recall that two days before that, israel was also accused of striking a humanitarian convoy after having encouraged to leave encouraged civilians to leave to the south gaza, where it is the south of gaza, where it is safer subsequently. Thats also been revealed to have been a hamas bombing fleeing civilians. But. The hamas bombing fleeing civilians. But. The combination of the false factual reporting and the blatant misrepresentations and abuses of International Law create this sort of perfect storm. One thing im interested in is how you differentiate between a siege which is legitimate and collective punishment , which collective punishment, which isnt. Is there a clear Legal Definition of the two . It comes down to the intention. So the starvation of civilians as if a siege is implemented. For that reason, implemented. For that reason, its plainly illegitimate, unlawful. But israels aims here unlawful. But israels aims here have been clear and repeatedly stated to get rid of hamas , stated to get rid of hamas, change the status quo in the gaza strip. So this this terrorist organisation or any of the others that crossed the border on the 7th of october, because we must remember it was not just because we must remember it was notjust hamas, palestinian , an notjust hamas, palestinian, an islamic jihad, pflp and fatah members also crossed over. So to change the reality of the situation in gaza , which is for situation in gaza, which is for the benefit, as you were hearing earlier, of ordinary palestinians living in gaza as well as the israelis that have been subject to this appalling slaughter , butchery and torture. Slaughter, butchery and torture. Thats the key thing to remember. It is the most appalling and wicked slaughter. Appalling and wicked slaughter. Thank so much for clarifying thank you so much for clarifying the International Legal the complex International Legal issues us. Coming up next, issues for us. Coming up next, has awoke hatred of our own nafion has awoke hatred of our own nation enabled extremism. Plus is it time the tory party woke up. When getting a good nights sleep is a struggle, try nytol herbal. Made with natural Plant Extracts that have been used for decades. Owl hoots. Nytol herbal is used to help you drift off gently. For a refreshing, restful nights sleep, say good nytol. Radio. Welcome back. As my next guest has pointed out, enoch powell was wrong. There have not been rivers of blood in britain, especially when compared to america or france. Britain has largely been a case of success when to the question of when it comes to the question of integration with many different groups and cultures side groups and cultures living side by harmony. However, as by side in harmony. However, as we earlier in the we discussed earlier in the programme, there is clearly a subset that does subset within britain that does not its support to groups not lend its support to groups like. That does lend its like hamas. That does lend its support to groups like hamas, as well as holding values. The diametric opposed our own. Diametric opposed to our own. The problem seems the the problem seems to be the intersection between islamists and islamism is the and the woke islamism is the endorsement of a sharia based Theocratic Society and wokeness is intent on undermining liberal democracy with me now is my distinguished panel, editor of conservative home, paul goodman, and gb news senior political commentator nigel nelson. Paul, commentator nigel nelson. Paul, you extreme you wrote this extreme interesting piece today where you were saying that woke so seems to hate our own understanding of our own culture and western liberal values is that it and western liberal values is thatitis and western liberal values is that it is destroying that which protects us from extreme ism. What can we do about this . Well, its very important. First to be clear about the terms and the word multiculturalism around which this whole debate turns. Does have different meanings to different people. And ive different people. And ive always thought that for most people and i still think this is true, it basically means the multi racial society, which is why ive always been against conservative attacks on multiculturalism, because i think most people mishear it. But a kind of deeper meaning as youve just said, is People Living in different ways is by and large, weve made a Great Success of it. But there is a problem. The first problem, in fact, has got nothing particularly to do with this week. Its the general point about import voting, foreign quarrels here. So we saw in leicester last summer, for example , all tensions between example, all tensions between hindus and muslims. As then as hindus and muslims. As then as you say, theres this wider point which i dont think holds for most people on that demonstration on saturday or for most muslims or islamist extremism , whereby those who extremism, whereby those who hold it see people as defined by religion rather than their common citizenship. I think common citizenship. I think thats increasingly a problem and it makes me feel less optimistic than i was. You make the very good point about multiculturalism, which is how i see it, that anybody whos come to this country, whatever their background, whatever their culture, be, british. And culture, can be, british. And thats a good thing. And that seems to worked quite well. Seems to have worked quite well. But but nigel, the point on foreign quarrels coming here, thats a real problem , isnt it, thats a real problem, isnt it, when you have people taking sides on behalf of hamas where there may be hundreds of people seem to be protesting for hamas at the weekend and there may be thousands in the country who think that hamas is right. Thats a different problem for the country to face. Yes. But i mean, those demonstrations were in support of palestine, obviously , there of palestine, obviously, there have been support of hamas that they would that people would have been arrested. Well, there were numbers that were the larger numbers that i think accept in support think we can accept in support of palestine. But there are certainly people never been there. People whove never been there. There certainly there seem to certainly seem to be hundreds people who be some hundreds of people who were supporting hamas. Be some hundreds of people who werwell, supporting hamas. Be some hundreds of people who werwell, i supporting hamas. Be some hundreds of people who werwell, i mean, jorting hamas. Be some hundreds of people who werwell, i mean, there] hamas. Be some hundreds of people who werwell, i mean, there werelas. Be some hundreds of people who werwell, i mean, there were some well, i mean, there were some some there who did. And anyone who actively supporting who is actively supporting them obviously should face arrest. And i mean, like paul pauls and i mean, i like paul pauls piece. Only that made piece. The only thing that made me about it is me uncomfortable about it is there to be underlying there seems to be an underlying assumption , which i think you assumption, which i think you were repeating , that western were repeating, that western values , christian values, values, christian values, british values, which are broadly the same , should never broadly the same, should never be questioned. And i would say be questioned. And i would say that probably we should question it. We cant accept everything as being im not saying theyre wrong, but we cant accept everything as right and have done with it. Thats what happened when we colonised various places. It was done with the justification that we were spreading christianity. The modern equivalent. Very rarely actually. Very rarely actually. Well, the modern equivalent is invading countries and saying that we are offering governors found the missionaries an absolute nuisance and discouraged. The modern discouraged them. The modern equivalent that were equivalent is that were offering that were offering liberal democracy ac to the countries that we invade. And i countries that we invade. And i think that these things just need questioning. Shouldnt undermine but we shouldnt undermine our own liberal democracy and say that its all very bad and has done terrible things at the same time. I think on the whole, british values, liberal democracy, these are good but are really good things. But theres deeper here, theres a deeper point here, which that this particular which is that at this particular islamic extremism mindset, its actually a sort of challenge to universal religious values and one of the good signs i cited in my piece was this letter from a senior group of imams and sheikhs. Yes. Who have very clearly denounced the massacres as being done by hamas. So they as being done by hamas. So they were countering the conspiracy theories that run through some sections of the british muslim community. And they were basically calling for dialogue. And theres a lot more of this classical and traditional islam around in britain than you would think sometimes from reading the papers or watching tv. And this is very important that we defend the law abiding muslim from the accusation that everybody is on the same side and that of the 100,000 who may have marched, we recognise that 99,000 were not advocating. 99,000 were not advocating. Of course, that surely is where you show that multiculturalism is actually working. Indeed, there multiculturalism has become, as paul said at the beginning, a very difficult word because it means these two very different things. Excellent. Well, thank things. Excellent. Well, thank you very much to my panel. Coming up next, as the conservative lives lose two seats in tamworth and mid bedfordshire party a bedfordshire is the party in a torpor not seen since henry the sixth 18 month catatonic state in 15th century plus , does in the 15th century plus, does it take one to quango. Theres help for households. Are you over state pension age . If your weekly income is below £201. 05, or £306. 85 if you live with a partner, you could be eligible for pension credit, even if you own your home or have savings. Its worth, on average, £3,500 a year, and you could get help with heating bills and more, plus cost of living payments. Welcome back. Welcome back. Last week saw two losses for the conservatives in the tamworth and mid bedfordshire by elections , while labour leader elections, while labour leader sir keir starmer has clearly been taking lessons from the playbook of that electoral success of tony blair. Nothing much is being done to inspire conservative voters to turn out. Instead its complacently assumed that they will do so when it really matters at that time is already upon us. The labour party now has a tangible chance seizing power in next chance of seizing power in next years chance of seizing power in next years general election. As sir keir busy keir starmer is busy self identifying as a tory and has even said that tax is are too high while his excised corbyns more extreme policies , corbyns more extreme policies, the government needs to be shaken out of its stupor and stop attacking the voters upon whom it depends for support. If not, then last weeks by election defeats will be a haunting prelude to the results of the next general election. Well, im now joined by the professor and professor of politics and international the International Relations at the University Matthew university of kent, Matthew Goodwin. Matthew thank for goodwin. Matthew thank you for joining your polling joining me. Does your polling and focus groups show so and your focus groups show so much hope for the conservatives at moment. At the moment. Well, its not looking great, jacob. If you look at those two by elections, one of the things that really stands out is that result in tamworth where actually the swing against the conservative party was bigger than the equivale swing in 1996, a year before the conservatives. Obviously lost quite heavily to new labour. And if you look in general at the national polling, labour are really where they need to be in order to win a majority at the next election. They need to be at least 12. 5 points ahead in the national polling. Theyre currently averaging around 15 to 16 points. Now against that , as you points. Now against that, as you allude, jacob, there is this problem for rishi sunak, which is about 40 of boris is that about 40 of Boris Johnsons voters are currently saying theyre not planning to vote at the next election if he wins those back , if he can win wins those back, if he can win those voters back then the race will indeed narrow. But at the moment, they dont seem to be warming to mr sunak. And what about the vote for reform . Because were back to a situation which used to have situation which we used to have with when you could point with ukip, when you could point to seats if the people to seats and say, if the people who had voted reform had voted conservative lviv the conservatives would have won. Is that something we should be concerned conservatives concerned about as conservatives 7 concerned about as conservatives . Well, i think absolutely. Any party to the to the right of the conservative party is always going to be a problem, especially if the race narrows. Especially if the race narrows. The interesting thing about reform , jacob, is that theyre reform, jacob, is that theyre currently winning about 15 of the conservative partys 2019 electorate. So this reminds me of ukip in 2011 or 2012. If the 5 in the National Polls begins to climb, if we start to see reform going up to seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, then obviously that will be really be the nail in the coffin for the conservatives at the next election. The other big election. The other big challenge here, of course , is challenge here, of course, is apathy. As you alluded to in your opening comments. I think one of the big problems for the conservatives in 1997 was, was apathy, was people just staying at home. And i think this time around we may see that again. Theres a lot of disillusionment in the focus groups that i sit in the focus groups that i sit in about illegal migration, legal migration, crime. By the way , jacob, is becoming an way, jacob, is becoming an enormous issue in britain. The concerns over shoplifting, the belief that nobody is being punished , these traditional punished, these traditional conservative issues are the ones where i think many conservative voters feel most unhappy about. Voters feel most unhappy about. So those are the ones that i would be urging rishi sunak and that should be pretty straightfonnard for the government if does government if it does traditional conservative things like and order like dealing with law and order and dealing with migration, then it win back the voters who it would win back the voters who seem to be wandering to reform. And thats easiest group and thats the easiest group to win back, i would have thought as long the party is thought as long as the party is delivering and herein lies the problem, we know that the rwanda judgement is, is yet to be made regarding small boats. Regarding small boats. We know that legal migration is unlikely to fall dramatically before the next election. So some of these things are going to be very challenging to change. Weve also got these concerns over crime, which i mentioned , burglary and mentioned, burglary and shoplifting in particular earlier, and of course the cost of living crisis. I mean, if Interest Rates do begin to sorry, if inflation begins to fall dramatically and food pnces fall dramatically and food prices continue to fall, that might give rishi sunak more of a chance. But as i say , those 2019 chance. But as i say, those 2019 conservatives, jacob, their top issueis conservatives, jacob, their top issue is above the economy is immigration. Immigration immigration. Immigration immigration is the number one issue for those Boris Johnson okay. Well, thank you very much, professor goodwin. With me now is my panel, the editor of conservative home, paul goodman, and gb news senior political commentator nelson. And commentator nigel nelson. And nigel the labour party nigel is the labour party putting the champagne on ice . I would think that the labour party are actually looking at the champagne, but not quite putting it, putting it in the bucket yet. Theres a long way to go. There is a year. Anything to go. There is a year. Anything could happen in if youre putting if the labour party was a racehorse , its worth putting a racehorse, its worth putting a racehorse, its worth putting a bet on them to win the next general election. But nothing is certain and i think that the results that came out of mid beds and tamworth , especially beds and tamworth, especially mid beds there was there would be a grain of hope for the tory party if the lib dems had taken the seat and shown it was a protest vote. Reform obviously cause a bit of a problem in marginal constituencies , but marginal constituencies, but again not a huge one. Were making the assumption that all those reform voters in tamworth would have gone would have been conservative voters othennise wise, and the tory candidate would have won by 57 votes. I dont think you can make that assumption. But David Cameron neutralised ukip by offering a referendum. He did what the ukip voters wanted and they did come over to the tories and he won in 2015, unexpectedly. He can rishi sunak do something similar. Well, i think that that matt made the point there. Stop the boats, stop the boats would obviously be that thats been his absolute promise. Theres no his absolute promise. Theres no sign of that happening. Even if sign of that happening. Even if everything went right, even if rwanda did get off the ground and the Supreme Court gave gave the go ahead, its unlikely the boats would stop in any meaningful way. So that promise isnt going to work. Take 51 to 64, 79 to 97, 10 to 14. In. In. In. Well, i think its worth putting the by elections in perspective. If for myself, ill perspective. If for myself, ill put my head on the block and say i think by elections are a less reliable indicator for than opinion polls when theyre right. And what the polls show is that Keir Starmers lead, its less big than blairs its less big than tony blairs was in 1996 and hes further behind. So i think some of the talk last week in left wing circles about a labour landslide lead was grossly over the top , lead was grossly over the top, but at the moment it does look as though keir starmer could at least hung parliament, least force a hung parliament, if not, probably win. And thats if not, probably win. And thats where we are now. But you know, as nigel said, a year is a long time. All sorts of things can happen. And since 2010 weve had the coalition ukip theresa may, jeremy corbyn, the brexit party, bofis jeremy corbyn, the brexit party, Boris Johnson , liz truss whos Boris Johnson, liz truss whos to say that in the next year there wont be change, but it does look difficult and rishi sunak has to have a clear plan which at the moment hes just not convincing voters hes got. And Matthew Goodwin is right, its be delivery, hasnt its got to be delivery, hasnt it, that weve had enough of promises. Manifestos dont promises. Manifestos dont matter. In next year. Matter. Its in the next year. Can things actually happen that people see to legibly making their lives better or assuaging their lives better or assuaging their concerns . Something happening mean nigel referred to stopping the boats would be a bit of a start, but i am mindful if i was taking a gloomy view for the tories that in 1996, you know the economy was going well. Ken clarke cut income tax by a penny. I think in the 1995 budget it made no difference come the day because conservative credibility was very low. And one of the big very low. And one of the big problems that rishi has got and im just leaving aside his performance in the Conference Season that we can come to, is hes inherited a wasteland. Bofis hes inherited a wasteland. Boris johnson was a mixture of the brilliant and the bad. I dont think anyone would claim that he left with his standing very high. And the liz truss experiment, well , you know all experiment, well, you know all about that. I do indeed. About that. I do indeed. But we then get the Party Conference and what are we going to get . Were going to get a change to a levels when all my children, of whom are quite children, some of whom are quite young, school and young, have left school and a ban smoking. If youre ban on smoking. If youre whatever. I ban on smoking. If youre whatever. I mean, ban on smoking. If youre whatever. I mean, this ban on smoking. If youre whatever. I mean, this is an exciting. Is it . No, it wasnt exciting. Is it . No, it wasnt no hs2 either , which was bizarre no hs2 either, which was bizarre that wasnt announced weeks that that wasnt announced weeks before conference place i yes. So yes. So i think that what rishi sunak tried to do at conference was to create , if you conference was to create, if you like, the cult of rishi sunak. Like, the cult of rishi sunak. He seemed to be moving away from the conservative party that that words like we became i it was very much you vote for me, not the party party. Well, there we go. Thank you to my panel. Now, the left hand of Natural England clearly doesnt know what its right hand is doing or as its objected to its own Development Plans to build new office in one of build a new office in one of englands most picturesque areas, the Environmental Group has than 145,000 has blocked more than 145,000 houses nationally, good houses nationally, so its good at blocking things. In this at blocking things. But in this instance, the developer it blocked turned be itself. Blocked turned out to be itself. The plan was to build a one storey building car park and access road on the lizard peninsula, area popular peninsula, an area popular for its beaches and its white sand beaches and abundance and fauna. Abundance of flora and fauna. Natural its Natural England opposed its own proposals its like proposals. Its rather like a dog biting its own tail. Thats bureaucrats for you. Anyway, thank you again to my panel. Thats all from me. Up next is mark dolan. Mark, what have you got on your bill of fare this evening, jacob . 2 Million People who are receiving benefit claims but are not looking for a job. Britain has become something has become a something for nothing country. Plus, britains nothing country. Plus, britains police a waste of time. Police are a waste of time. A busy show. Were live at nine. Oh, well, i think that 2 million story is really important. We seem to be allowing benefits to have got out of control at the moment and we to them back under we need to get them back under control government control because government expenditure is too high and we wont cuts othennise. Wont get tax cuts othennise. But coming up after the but thats coming up after the weather. Ill back tomorrow weather. Ill be back tomorrow at jacob rees mogg. At 8 00. Im jacob rees mogg. This state of the this has been state of the nafion this has been state of the nation and somerset. Oh, itll be glorious. Half term. Be glorious. Its half term. Everyone lovely everyone will be having a lovely time cider on time and were making cider on saturday. Hello very good evening. Im alex burkill. Heres your latest gb news weather update. Its news weather update. Its already started to turn bit already started to turn a bit wet across some parts, wet and windy across some parts, but the wind and rain will become widespread as we go become more widespread as we go overnight tuesday. Theres overnight into tuesday. Theres a pushing its way a system pushing its way northwards but northwards up from france, but also a separate front thats currently making its way north eastwards across southwestern parts of the uk. This will bring some heavy rain as go through some heavy rain as we go through the the day. Across the end of the day. Across south west in particular South West Wales in particular and spread into more South West Wales in particular and partsead into more South West Wales in particular and parts through more South West Wales in particular and parts through thee South West Wales in particular and parts through the early central parts through the early hours also some persistent rain hours. Also some persistent rain starting south east, starting off in the south east, pushing more eastern north pushing into more eastern North Eastern through the Eastern England through the early hours of tuesday to a fairly mild night. For many, though, could be a little though, it could be a little chilly north west chilly across the north west of scotland, touch of scotland, perhaps a touch of frost here many. Tuesday is frost here for many. Tuesday is going a much wetter going to be a much wetter picture than monday. Heavy picture than on monday. Heavy persistent rain across northern eastern parts of england could see totals, could be see some high totals, could be some disruption here, chance of some disruption here, chance of some flooding to elsewhere, some bright, sunny spells, but also a scattering showers. And these bright, sunny spells, but also a scatterincould howers. And these bright, sunny spells, but also a scatterincould turnrs. And these bright, sunny spells, but also a scatterincould turn heavy, these showers could turn heavy, perhaps even thundery towards the temperatures near the south. Temperatures near normal the time of year. Normal for the time of year. Were at around 14 were looking at highs around 14 or in the south. Or 15 celsius in the south. Cooler further into cooler further north into wednesday , we will see a spell wednesday, we will see a spell of wet weather across the southeast to start. And also some rain pushing eastern some rain pushing into eastern parts perhaps parts of scotland, perhaps north east could north east england. That could turn bit heavy times turn a little bit heavy at times and coming close to the heavy and coming so close to the heavy rain we saw last week, it could make ongoing issues worse. And othennise, through the othennise, as we go through the rest the were staying rest of the week, were staying with unsettled picture with with the unsettled picture with further wind and but further wind and rain. But temperatures normal coming up. Weve got a very busy show. Your feedback is what its all about. Mark gb news dot com. The emails come straight to my laptop. So a busy show strap yourselves in. It is 9 00. Im mark dolan and this is gb news tonight. And mark dolan and this is gb news tonight. And breaking this evening, nigel farage has exposed more shocking political bias at the heart of the Natwest Group who tried to de banking him in a bombshell 600 page document. Staff at coutts are document. Staff at coutts are quoted as calling nigel racist a shameless grifter and a crackpot , what with one even wanting to throw a milkshake at him. And very shortly nigel farage joins me live to give his exclusive reaction to these extraordinary and equally disturbing revelations means elsewhere. Welcome to the uk. In 2023, where you can chant anti semitic slogans and call forjihad. Slogans and call for jihad. Whilst our woke police force. Just stand by and do nothing. Ill call out these attacks against israel and democracy as we know it in my big opinion next. And im not pulling my punches. The police are institutionally woke institutionally woke institutionally biased and institutionally biased and institutionally useless. Then my pundits react. Tonight at carole malone, benjamin buttennorth and beunda malone, benjamin buttennorth and belinda de lucy , plus a former belinda de lucy, plus a former israeli Prime Minister, Naftali Naftali bennett has launched a stunning attack on the bbc. If you think theres a balance here between two equal sides , then you are lacking sides, then you are lacking moral clarity and bbc. I must say,