Transcripts For MSNBCW Velshi 20240704 : vimarsana.com

MSNBCW Velshi July 4, 2024

And you are watching velshi on msnbc. I am Charles Coleman jr. Filling in for my friend ali velshi. Like so many different places across the country, july saw record breaking temperatures in the state of georgia. Well, for donald trump, the last two weeks, its about to get hot as fish grease. And with that, we begin this morning with the latest details out of Fulton County, georgia, where a possible fourth criminal indictment of the former president could be filed in a matter of days. The states former Lieutenant Governor geoff duncan confirmed just yesterday that he received a notice to appear before a grand jury on tuesday. Additionally, independent journalist George Chilly also said he received a call from the office of Fulton County District Attorney fani willis that also asked him to come in on tuesday to give his testimony. These are the clearest signs yet that willis will present her case to the grand jury in the coming weeks in pursuit of criminal indictments in the States Election interference case. Security measures and Law Enforcement for essence noticeably increased in and around the Fulton County courthouse in recent days as well. All of this is fueling further speculation that an indictment is imminent. Willis has previously said that any Charting Decisions regarding this matter would be announced before September 1st which is just about two weeks away. Also, this morning, cnn is reporting that georgia prosecutors have evidence that the former president ss legal team was directly involved with a Voting System breach shortly after the 2020 election. I said it again. Hot as fish grease. According to these cnn sources, prosecutors have emails and Text Messages that directly linked trumps team to the attempt by local allies to access Voting Systems in coffee, georgia early january 2021. Abc news has not yet independently verified this information nor have we seen the messages cited in this report. Meanwhile, donald trump spent his saturday doing what any other person who is facing a potential indictment will be doing and the iowa state fair. When he was asked whether he defends the actions of his allies in georgia he did his best to deflect. In georgia, do you defend the actions of your allies following the 2020 election in georgia . Which allies, i dont know. I should be honest with you, i have so many allies. I dont exactly know what youre talking about. Ill tell you this. These people want to see democracy. They want to see a nation be great again. Right now, our nation is going down to hell. So we have a lot of allies that dont know. We have a lot of allies that dont know, but nevertheless i cant speak to that. Nobody can answer that question. Here is something i want to break down very quickly. Of all the cases that donald trump is currently facing, this is the one that he probably should be most concerned about. And i will explain why. Now, donald trump has a lot going on, so this may take a second. But if you are looking at carole or Letitia James in new york, those are both civil cases. Hes not going to lose his freedom of reality because of it. He may face financial penalties, but thats about it. Alvin bragg in new york, it is a felony but it is a local case and not something that is likely to face jail time for even if convicted. As far as the two federal indictments bought by jack smith, donald trump has a very novel path where he could potentially become the president or solicit help from any of the republican hopefuls in such a way that he ultimately pardons himself or select an a. G. Who was willing to pardon him and dismissed the case. But with fani willis, he cant do any of that. With her bringing and indictment and with her indicating that its going to be a legal case, basically, what that tells us is that there are going to be a slew of other defendants who like donald trump, have never been in this position before. And whats likely to happen, its going to open the door to a last man standing, royal rumble of Everyone Throwing everyone else under the bus. More importantly, theres no pardon that he can do with respect to the charges in georgia. And thats why his next two weeks are so important. Lets break this all down with someone who knows everything about trump world. Joining me now is hugo lowell, political investigations reporter for the guardian. Its so good to see you, my friend. Good morning. Your latest reporting, hugo, is about how some of trumps allies and georgia could potentially be indicted along with him. I was just talking about that with respect to it being a legal case. What can you tell us about who these people are, and the roles they played with respect to the Election Interference Scheme . So, the case in georgia is again a particularly expansive based on everyone we spoke to adjacent to the Fulton County d. A. s office. By the sounds of it, theres gonna be a case in rico. But theres gonna be a bunch of standalone crimes. The difference in georgia, some of the standalone crimes led can be indicted separately, they are also what we call qualifying crimes under the rico act, then that can be forwarded into a racketeering case as well. What we are trying to see is one of the biggest qualifying crimes that exist in georgia, continue to trespass, could be one of the crimes that voted trump and is love alice can be hit with. And some of the allies include people in the local Republican Party, people who are connected to the Coffee County elections office, who are involved in this breach, as you were saying, in january 2021, when they go in trying to find supposed evidence of election fraud, but in doing so, copy vast and mounds of data, basically illegally accessed the dominion Voting Systems network in Coffee County that use statewide in georgia, and then upload it into website where Election Deniers can access it. I just want to be clear, this is why the notion of a rico charges so important because donald trump, if its being bought under rico, it doesnt actually have to touch a computer to be indicted. And thats the beauty of what it does as a Law Enforcement, and how fani willis will use it. You go, tell me your thoughts about the comment we just played of trump, where it seems like he is distancing himself from his allies in georgia, very quickly, hugo. Look, hes gonna try to distance himself, and he has to. Its part of his defense. And as you write and you point out, the way that racketeering case, prosecutors have to show an enterprise of racketeering activity. You have to show a criminal enterprise web where there is a common goal that everyone is working to. All the defendants dont necessarily have to interact with each other. But the final goal here that prosecutors are trying to show is that trump tried to gain an unlawful benefit. They were trying to show that he was trying to overturn the election. And there were allies and groups working together in concert trying to get to that end result. And that is gonna be, expect to be trump tried to distance himself from more of those people in the coming days and weeks. Hugo lowell, thank you as always, my friend. With me now is melissa murray, she is a professor of law at nyu, and host of the podcast trick scrutiny. And joining us also as u. S. Attorney carole lamb, both of whom are msnbc legal analysts. So good to have you with me today. Melissa, i want to start with you. Its been reported that fani willis is looking to charge donald trump under the rico statute. Weve been talking about that this morning. If that happens, what do you think, basically, is going to be the difference between the Election Interference Case in georgia and what we are seeing at the federal level with jack smith and the Special Prosecutor . Charles, there will likely be charges that stem from the same locus of events, obviously what happened on january 6th obviously has repercussions for what happened in georgia and the lead up to that. But theyre obviously very different. And what will happen likely in the state level rico charges will be there will be more people identified, people who maybe outside of the millions that have already been identified in jackson its indictment. This has a potential to open this wide up, introduced a whole new cast of characters from georgia that will also perhaps have some overlap what the federal case as well. Again, as hugo said earlier, this is a very important case because its at the state level. These are georgia laws that are being prosecuted here, not federal laws. And that means if he is actually convicted under these charges, these are charges that cannot be pardoned by the president , the only person who can Grant Clemency would be the governor of georgia himself. And obviously doing that would have severe political consequences for brian kemp if he were to do that at this point. Very interesting. And i do appreciate that breakdown because a lot of people have been wondering, why bring them in separate jurisdictions, your breakdown clearly explains that. Carol i want to turn to you. Lets turn back for a moment. This entire investigation started after a recording, it was a recording of trumps phone call with the Secretary Of State in georgia. How important is that piece of evidence going to be . And how much exposure does it give to donald trump here . Charles, its very important evidence because in all of the evidence that weve seen, this is actually a taped recording of Donald Trumps voice, where its very clear its a Telephone Recording and they are very clear. And the former president is saying finally the votes. So, when you have tape recorded evidence like that of the defendant actually talking, its obviously very persuasive. Now, there would be all sorts of defenses, he was sure that those votes were out there, and he was just asking people to find them because he knew they ere. We again, a jury is likely to find that kind of evidence much more persuasive. I will also add that with respect to the difference between jack smiths indictment and fani williss anticipated indictment, one important fact is when you charge rico in georgia, its a five year minimum mandatory sentence if you are convicted. And even putting aside how complicated that would be in Donald Trumps case, it does put a lot of pressure on those who are also looked at as coconspirators in that case to flip and cooperate with the government because it is a minimum sentence that is required. That is that royal rumble im talking about, i suspect its going to turn into every man for himself. Melissa, trump is still on truth social, and he is still attacking Fulton County District Attorney fani willis. In his newest post, he called her a racist, surprise, surprise and he alleges shes a phony. And he also has made illusions that, to the notion she tweeted gang members with kid gloves. He also made false assertions about important relationships with her client, one of them was a gang member. All of this, what do you think is going to play to his base and his supporters . Its worth noting that the former president has been especially vocal about anyone whos been involved in prosecuting him. So, jack smith has certainly gotten some of this. You are right. This is incredibly the trial like, it seems to be especially pronounced when its directed at d. A. Fani willis. And perhaps its unsurprising. Shes an African American woman in a position that traditionally has been occupied by men. And shes prosecuting him. Again, this may play to his base particularly, especially those who are perhaps nerve or unsettled by the prospect of a woman of color being in positions of authority. But again, this is part of the course. It is pronounced in the case of this particular black woman. But, melissa, why is it that when it comes to jack smith, he is just deranged. But when it comes to alvin bragg, when it comes to laetitia james, when it comes to fani willis, they are not qualified. Like, there is a very different type of criticisms, criticism that we see donald trump wage against certain people even though theyre both prosecuting him. I think you are answering your own question, charles. It doesnt really take a detective to figure out what unites all of those individuals nor what unites this particular base. I mean, this is a base that very much is undergirded by strain of racial a grievance that this particular former president has been able to tap into very effectively. Again, it is worth noting here that all of the individuals that you have named, alvin bragg, laetitia james, fani willis, theyre incredibly qualified, whether donald trump or his case was to admit that. And, again all the charges that have been brought, both under the criminal law and those that proceed under civil laws have been incredibly well founded. So these are not situations or circumstances where individuals are proceeding lightly. They are weighing this carefully, knowing that they will have the full blast of Public Scrutiny on them from donald trump and his supporters. Carol, youve been on the bench. You are a former judge. Donald trump has already been warned, special counsel Election Interference Case, that he should be careful about what he says. And possible witnesses. What kind of consequences, tell us, could he face if he just continues to blow off the warnings from the george and keep this type of behavior. Donald trump is not used to this. Hes not used to having a figure of authority tell him he cant say things. And he is having some difficulty with that. This is a power struggle. Its a battle for control of the courtrooms. And donald trump is not going to win that battle. If you are a judge, your kingdom is the courtroom. And it is your responsibility to keep control over that courtroom and over the proceedings leading up to the trial and during the trial. It is your responsibility to protect the parties, the jurors, the court staff as well. So, what is going to happen here is if donald trump continues in his march of saying things that could potentially endanger court staff or jurors or witnesses, its just going to keep Ratcheting Up until ultimately penalties are imposed. Now, what can those pay . They can be financial penalties, and they can be large financial penalties. They can be custody, and it doesnt necessarily have to be custody until the trial, it can be custody to essentially serve a sentence if the judge finds the former president in contempt. It can be one day, two days, five days, a week. And what i think is very interesting here is that judge chutkan in manhattan has actually but the attorneys themselves, his Defense Attorneys on the hot seat a bit. She said i putting responsibility on you. I want you to look over his notes after he refuse discovery from the government to make sure he is not writing down identifiable information about witnesses. If he ends up doing things that are potentially going to endanger witnesses, or down the road jurors, judge chutkan is going to hold his attorneys responsible to an extent. So theyre in a bit of a hot seat and theyre gonna have to exercise some client control here. Melissa murray and carol lam, always get smarter by talking to you both. Thank you so much. We are just getting started. Stay right there. On the other side of the break, joe manchin versus the democrats. How a potential third party run by the West Virginia senator could put donald trump back in the white house. Plus, new calls for an Ethics Investigation into Clarence Thomas following a brandnew reporting on lavish gifts. And then, we will head to hawaii, where at least 93 people are now confirmed dead in what is now the deadliest wildfire in modern american history. A live report from maui is next on velshi. But then i found quviviq, an fdaapproved medication for adults with insomnia. And im glad i found it. You wouldnt believe some of the things people suggested to help me sleep. Nature sounds . Ahh, no thanks. My friends whitenoise idea. Nope. And im not counting sheep. Not on the. Carpet. Insomnia can impact both my days and my nights. So i know how important a good nights sleep is. Thats why i take quviviq nightly. Maybe i should tell them how it works, taye . Quviviq works differently than medications you may have taken in the past. Its thought to target one of the biological causes of insomnia overactive wake signals. And when taken every night, studies showed sleep continued to improve over time. Do not take quviviq if you have narcolepsy. 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