Legal experts tonight. Were discussing rico is a powerful charge because it is so broad. It is one of the broadest laws in the nation, the way georgia uses it, as the Washington Post explains, because prosecutors can weave together alleged crimes, violations of state and federal laws, activities in other states, the law as this d. A. Knows well, does not require a defendant to set foot in georgia to be charged. Why . Because rico is that broad, you do need, of course, something to happen in the state, in georgia, but you could be a person who stayed out of state. Maybe youre a busy coconspirator. Maybe youre a coward and send other people to do things for you. Under the Georgia State rico statute, a long as some people have committed these crimes of some kind inside the state, other people can be looped in. Thats one of the ways d. A. Willis came out with this strong, broad set of charges last night rounding up these 19 defendants. Theyre not all Household Names. I want to show you defendant trump, giuliani, eastman, clark, chesebro, powell. These are people, some coconspirators listed by doj and not charged. Now, d. A. Willis has charged them. Then you have folks under scrutiny like mark meadows who was on the raffensperger call, and hes been an interesting one. Hes moved around the jan 6 and doj probe but never been charged. Or jenna ellis, censured for lying about the election but never charged. Now she is. Then as we mentioned, a broad conspiracy, the theory the case the d. A. Is using, also sweeps in people on the ground, local georgians. You see some of those people there at the bottom. Theyre not all Household Names but they are allegedly part of the same rico racketeering conspiracy. Its a wide net. They can bring in the multiple defendants who otherwise might have escaped scrutiny or accountability or again without rico might have been charged on an individual basis. Its stronger and scarier to charge them all. Now, theres nothing new about rico. It has been on the books against the mafia on the federal side, in the state of georgia for a long time. And many people know about it. That includes movies that talk about rico, songs that talk about rico. Meek mill said we started on the list most wanted and now its the forbes list. Can hear echo from informants i think theyre recording. We might just get hit with the rico. In a song called, well, rico. Now thats just a lyric, sure, about a law thats real. But as for the recording, its also relevant. In the trump case, they were recording, Georgia Republicans were actually so concerned about trumps criminal plotting that they went out of their way during those choppy days leading up to january 6th to record what turned out to be now according to the d. A. Criminal evidence. His demands to steal the race. Now, meek mill said he moved on from being on the most wanted list. Trump is a defendant on what you might call georgias most wanted list. These are the different plots, some of these, of course, very familiar, because if you look at the top of your screen, the electors plot was under scrutiny in the january 6th probe. And doj charged it through jack smiths probe. But there are new things that this d. A. Has uncovered. The second arrow is the effective plot to get georgia to overturn the votes. The d. A. Has also charged the Vice President pence plot out of georgia because it related. The doj interference as well, and if you go down to the bottom two arrows here, this is part of the Rico Conspiracy for the first time, we can show you that horrific poll worker harassment, it was unethical, terrible, it was criticized, but now it is indicted as part of the Rico Conspiracy along with the alleged voting data breach led by Sidney Powell on behalf of donald trump. You are looking at the rico case. Its strong, its long running and there are a lot of defendants more nervous today than they were when they woke up yesterday. I want to bring in our experts tonight. A man who has tried rico cases in georgia, jay tom morgan, former District Attorney for dekalb county, neighboring Fulton County, and back with us, professor Melissa Murray from nyu law. Welcome to both of you. Rico is broad and in some ways if you do the federal and state history, its complicated. I went through both all the way back to the Mafia Hearings In The 50s And 60s and what they wanted to do. Congress said okay, you guys are ducking and weaving. And you have this guy Money Laundering and this guy over here and this guy had a restaurant, and were going to sweep it all in. It worked, it busted about the five families. What do you think of the way the d. A. Is now using this as a strong case against so many trump defendants who according to the d. A. Were racketeering to steal the race . Ari, i prosecuted the First Corrupt Public Official in georgia under the georgia rico statute, and we got a conviction. There was a sheriff who we convicted of rico and murder. This statute is the most powerful weapon in a prosecutors arsenal. Because as you have just illustrated, not only can you bring in the crimes that occurred in georgia under the Georgia Statute, you can bring in crimes that occurred in other states and federal crimes. Thats why jack smith probably did not use the federal statute. Its not as broad as the Georgia Statute, and with this statute, there are 160 overt acts that are alleged in the rico statute. The prosecutor only has to prove two of them to prove the rico charge. Professor . Again, this is a really broad and sweeping statute. The Georgia Statute is more expansive than most state rico statutes and more expansive than the federal statute. It doesnt cohere to the same Tear Tortality constraints that other criminal laws do. You could actually charge someone based on conduct that occurred in another jurisdiction, so long as theres a nexus between that conduct and the crime that is in furtherance in the state of georgia. So thats why we have some of these defendants who have not ever stepped foot in georgia, and that will certainly be part of their defense, but its not likely to be completely availing because thats exactly what this statute contemplates, the prospect of a broad Criminal Syndicate that may have tentacles that go beyond the locus of the major conspiracy itself. Yeah, were looking on the screen, this number of faces. According to the d. A. , professor, this is the racketeering organization. This is the gang. This is the illegal group. We could come up with english words or legal words, but its an entire organized group, according to the d. A. Everyone is legally presumed innocent and theyll get their day in court. But thats striking. When you look at the giuliani of it, you have headlines, we talked about the movie references, mafia movies, dark knight references to rico. The headline today, giuliani who pioneered the use of rico, just got indicted on rico charges, professor. You talked about meek mill, but i think the real illusion here is to alanis morissette. This is highly ironic. Rudy giuliani made his career prosecuting the new york crime families under the rico statute. He then parlayed that into being mayor of new york city and from there on, he, again, rose to prominence, largely based on his role as a federal prosecutor, and here he is, the tables have turned and hes now facing the very same or a similar kind of statute, and the same kind of charges he once leveled against other people. How about that . Im sure some of the defendants and Defense Attorneys that giuliani went up against are saying karma right now. What goes around comes around. But he fits in perfectly, i mean, giuliani was in georgia promoting false lies to the Georgia Legislature about hiding of ballots and stuffing the ballot boxes, which we now know giuliani knows was untrue when he said it. Thats just amazing. Yeah, you called it amazing. Again, youre looking at this through the lens of whats provable. Youre not looking at this politically. Politically, people can debate things in public. We have robust protections for that in this country. Your freedom of speech doesnt get you to, you know, a defense to go and lie to the bank to get a loan or lying to the s. E. C. About your stock plan or lying to the fbi or in this case georgia officials. In furtherance of this Rico Conspiracy. So jay tom, take us into the minds of, you know, the prosecutors as they present to a georgia jury, because complexity is usually the enemy. You know, here, im here on msnbc. We have been covering this, rachel, joy, andrew weissmann, nicolle and myself, we keep track of it all. We almost love it, but in a jury trial, you want to keep it real straightforward. How do you do that . As an attorney, we try to follow the kiss principle. Keep it simple. But what she has done in this indictment, and by the way, the author of this indictment authored my indictment 20 years ago. Hes a phenomenal writer, john floyd. He has made it easy for us to understand. He will make it easy for a jury to understand. If they follow this indictment, those 160 overt acts, piece by piece, it will paint a picture that will be very hard to get around. Also want to bring up something we talked about at 6 00, and that is there will be cameras looking at each one of these 19 defendants. And i would assume that some of them, and their families will be telling them, find a way out of this. Yeah. You mentioned mr. Floyd, who works for d. A. Willis now. When is the last time you spoke with him . I spoke with him right when he decided he would take this he is a private attorney and he does this pro bono to help prosecutors. So when was that . Before he reentered the practice . That was when he agreed he would help ms. Willis. I said, john, you had a lot of practice at this. We were the first case 20 years ago. And since then, hes helped many prosecutors throughout the country. Its fascinating you mentioned that. Just on that point since you raised it, im curious, what do you think weighs on these officers of the law . We think about prosecutors, we think about people in Law Enforcement. They do have a tough job, sometimes they overreach, and we cover that as well. Its certainly a scrutinized field, but theyre girding up for what you might call in state court the trial of the century, jay tom. Well, fani has taken it on the chin and done an exceptional job of not responding. Mr. Trump accused her of having an affair with a gang member, which is absolutely false, completely made up. Because shes so public a figure, she cannot answer to those charges. She just tells her staff, well take this into court. Thats where this trial will take place. It will not take place in the press. Yeah, youre mentioning, by the way, could be legally defamatory, right . As false, even by the higher standard for a public official, but of course, most of these officials, professor, do their work. Theyll deal with any of it later if at all. Im curious what you think as well, professor, about the stakes of this in state court. Again, all defendants legally presumed innocent. 19 of them means if you take all the forget all the politics and whos running for president , you could have a rico case against 19 people, if you got 15 or 12 of them, that might be considered a success, because some change, some plead out, some go away or what have you. But this is a very big deal, and with the eyes of the nation on the courtroom, and as jay tom mentioned, it only courtroom where were going to have video. Its going to be very public for not only these defendants but also their families, as jay tom has suggested. But one of the things thats really struck me over the course of the last 20 hours as this has come out is what a terrible day for the Legal Profession yesterday. I mean, a good number of those individuals who have been indicted as codefendants are lawyers. And again, some of them have been Donald Trumps lawyers, and every person is entitled to a vigorous defense, but a vigorous defense doesnt necessarily extend to alleged efforts to overturn a lawfully conducted election. I mean, lawyers already get a bad rap from so many members of the public on these ideas that were unethical, unprofessional, ambulance chasers, but theres so many lawyers out here doing their level best to just abide by the law, to be decent, to represent their clients without showing fear or favor. I felt like Fani Willis Last Night exemplified those aspects of the profession. She said shes not prosecuting or targeting him because of her own personal views. She was simply representing as Law Enforcement officer the people of georgia and a wrong had been done against the georgia public. And she was merely trying to vindicate that. You know, you mentioned that, im curious, jay tom, how that fits into making the case. Because while ignorance is not a total defense to anything, there are times where, you know, at a human level, juries will actually be somewhat harsher or be more tough minded if someone is a lawyer or a doctor, and theyre being accused of something where theyre supposed to know. It can cut against them. A random person who says, and jack smith was very, you know, careful about this in the indictment, oh, someone was tricked into being an elector because they were a random civilian. Boy, if youre a lawyer, if youre Rudy Giuliani and you have practiced and jailed people over rico, and youre running around racketeering, allegedly, lying to government officials, allegedly, the jury might say, arent you supposed to know better . What do you think, jay tom . Ari, you took the words right out of my mouth. After reading the indictment, ill just say it right now, i think mr. Giuliani faces the greatest risk of legal exposure in this case. And because he is a lawyer. He used rico before. And it is embarrassing to the profession and as a former prosculator, im embarrassed that a former prosecutor who used rico has now been charged with rico. Really fascinating. You guys both of you, such experts here. Giving us measured nonpartisan, thoughtful analysis of something that is going to be a big story and a big, important issue with us for a while. Jay tom morgan and professor murray, thanks to both of you. Our live coverage will continue throughout this hour. Donald trump and these many faces you see, they have a deadline to voluntarily surrender. If they dont, if they play around, they will be issued Arrest Warrants and apprehended like anybody else. What that means next. rsv can be a dangerous virus. [sneeze]. For those 60 and older. Its not just a cold. And if youre 60 or older. You may be at increased risk of hospitalization. [coughing]. From this highly. Contagious virus. Not all dangers come with warning labels. Talk to your pharmacist or doctor. About getting vaccinated against rsv today. Im saving with liberty mutual, mom. They customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. You could save 700 dollars just by switching. Ooooh, let me put a reminder on my phone. On the top of the pile oh. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. There are many different ways to process this major news of the rico indictment out of atlanta. Its Donald Trumps fourth indictment. The first state charges that relate to the coup. It is a place where theres a mandatory minimum, and there arent easy ways to pardon, so even if donald trump remains a popular republican, even if he assumed the presidency again, he would still have the legal challenge, a standa between a state if he were convicted where he would need to be incarcerated and a question of what happens for an elected President Elect who is legally and lawfully awaiting or experiencing incarceration. Those are many ways. But theres another way. And this is something thats gotten a little less attention because we have all been dealing with all of the other things i mentioned. Until last night, no lawyer or aide to donald trump had actually been charged for stealing the election or coup related activities. If youre a close news watcher, you might say, what about bannon . It was process, him defying the committee. What about navarro . Hes awaiting trial. Important but separate from whether you actually get hit with, for example, a rico charge for stealing the election. And this also matters because whatever you think of donald trump and other people who may try to follow his blueprint, you cant do a conspiracy by yourself. You certainly cant do a coup by yourself. Theres no diy unilateral coup. This aint tennis. This is a team sport. And if you start throwing people in prison, as the d. A. Has shown she is willing to do, she said very carefully last night, theyre presumed innocent, but she expects convicted people to serve their prison terms including that mandatory five years. If you start throwing a bunch of people in prison, i do not care how cocky or confident they seem, i dont care how much they said they support this or that politician, as we know from all world history, one thing that hasnt changed, people hate going to prison. And if they actually see a world where it is a possibility, it may change their behavior. I want to bring in now from atlanta, Trial Attorney katie phang and one of the colleagues keeping us informed through all of this. Good to see you again. Great to see you, ari. Katie, lets start there. Theres many things to get into. I want to talk to you about the surrender deadline, but first, big picture, what does it mean that theres so many other defendants and if any of them get convicted or pay a penalty, according to the d. A. , that will deter future efforts to steal elections in georgia or elsewhere . I think, ari, to your point, the sheer number of defendants in this rico indictment thats been brought actually has more impact not at the finish line, not at the sentencing, although that really is the incentive for people to figure out during those come to jesus moments whether or n