And also tell us is it going to happen before the election. Could i Say Something . I think the fact we have to make a Television Show every night gives us a weird perspective on this. Were like what is everyone waiting for . You got to wait. We went through the indictment. Were ready. Were familiar with the evidence. Lets do it. Lets go. Lets get it onair. 11. 6 million pages of discovery. Lets go. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. The article starts with this, the woman cannot believe it, she is in the same elevator as Rudolf Giuliani. Oh, this is a thrill. Its a random new yorker in the year 1985. 1985 was the year Rudolf Giuliani made a name for himself. It was the year giuliani pioneered the same prosecutorial tactics that now very much look like they could be his downfall. But let me back up just a little bit. This is carmine the cigar gallante. And in the late 70s he flew a little too close to the sun. He was shot at pointblank range in an Italian Restaurant in brooklyn. Allegedly the motivation of his assassins is gallante decided he should be the head mob boss, but the other mob bosses did not agree. A guy named anthony, called whack whack, he not the person who decided the fate of carmine. He may have been part of the group that pulled the trigger but he would not have made a decision that big. Hes what is referred to in the mafia as a capo, a middle Ranking Member of a mafia family. And the young District AttorneyRudolf Giuliani didnt just want tageafter the capo. He said the only practice just helped speed the succession along. Saying it was not an unrealistic goal to crush them. So giuliani went for the people at the top. The indictment of the National Commission of Organized Crime according to the fbi this ninemember ruling body is cochaired by the men who are the bosses of new yorks five Organized Crime families. The case that made thenu. S. Attorney Rudy Giuliani a National Figure wasnt about any one criminal or any one crime. It was about how all of these crimes, drug deals and extortion, even murder, how all of that was ultimately controlled by the people at the top in the formf a Criminal Enterprise. In this Case A Ruling Body with a mob boss from every family, a ruling a ruling body called the commission. They are said to be one of the most powerful Crime Families in new york, in fact in the nation. And according to the government they make up the commission, a ruling body of a Criminal Enterprise involved in loansharking, labor racketeering, and murder. The Mafia Leaders were rounded up in an overnight sweep and new York AttorneyRudolf Giuliani announced the indictments. This is a bad day and probably the worst for the mafia. The commission had existed in new york for more than 50 years at that point without anyone being able to touch it. What gave giuliani the ability to go after the commission itself rather than just the commissions foot soldiers like wack wack was giulianis pioneering use of a relative new, the lack tear influenced and corrupt Organization Act of 1970. You might know it as rico. Before 1970 prosecutors were limited to seeking indictments for a crime. Rico changed that. If you could prove there was an enterprise or an organized group of some kind conspiring together to commit multiple crimes, then you could charge for that conspiracy. When ron came to visit me about putting together a rico case. At that point we all thought that that was a possibility of putting together a case on the commission of the mafia, but it was on the Drawing Boards at the time, and there were an awful lot of people including people in Law Enforcement who thought it was totally unrealistic, ridiculous, could not be done. Rudy giuliani did it. The top bosses in new yorks mafia bosses were given 100year prison sentences. The case made giuliani famous. Now a version of that same law, georgias rico statute, a version of that law could be Rudy Giulianis downfall. Of all the indictments former President Trump faces one of the things that makes yesterdays unique is how many other defendants there are. Because it was a rico case trump was indicted along with 18 other codefendants. 19 people, 19 all charged with being part of a Criminal Enterprise just like how giuliani charged the commission in the 1980s. And last night Fulton County d. A. Fani willis made clear she intends to try this whole Criminal Enterprise together. Do i intend to try the 19 defendants in this indictment together . Yes. Now, we have seen plenty of high profile cases against individual defendants play out in trial over the last few years. The trial against Trumps Campaign manager paul manafort, for example. We know how those trials work. But what about a case against 19 people . What about a rico case . How will this all work . And now that 19 of these individuals are facing serious jail time how soon until someone in this case flips . Because make no mistake as much is trump is surrounded by cospirators here in both the federal case and georgia case, even someone like Rudy Giuliani is ultimately just a capo in this Criminal Enterprise. The big boss, the end game here is donald j. Trump, and the question tonight is does the rico law that Rudy Giuliani built his career on, does that ultimately ensnare donald j. Trump. Joining me now is joyce vance, former u. S. Attorney for the Northern District of alabama, and laura jarrett, senior Legal Correspondent for nbc news. Laura and joyce, great to have you both with me tonight. Laura, let me start with you in terms of the many people named in this indictment down in Fulton County. I want to start with the news we have on mark meadows. Because mark meadows today is filing for a change of venue. Hes filed to move Fani Willis Case against him to Federal Court. Do you think such a move is likely . Whether or not itll be successful will be up to the judge. Let me just say its not frivolous. Its not crazy. Whether or not hell win, well have to see. But the argument is what hes being charged with in the new indictment has to do with things and actions he took while he was Chief Of Staff. The Removal Statute says if you have a coverable arguably move you have to remove it. If the charge was mark meadows had to do with robbing a bank you would say thats crazy. Phone calls, putting pressure on State Officials hed say thats not per se criminal. Of course prosecutors would disagree with him. They would say that is criminal. But again itd be up to the judge. I think this is going to be a closer one than perhaps someone else like Rudy Giuliani. Right, and were going to talk about giuliani in a second, joyce. Well talk about the merits of arguing this is not criminal behavior on the part of mark meadows, but moving this case to Federal Court has i guess the advantage of a different and presumably more sympathetic jury pool. How meaningful do you think that that will be for someone like mark meadows . So i think sometimes we get too comfortable talking about juries as though they are voting pools, right . We think about juries, how does that county vote . In my experience as a prosecutor, peoples political beliefs really dont impact their jury service. Judges do a great job of telling them they have to decide cases based on the evidence and law theyre instructed on and hear in the courtroom and they need to leave at the door any biases they might have including their political affiliation. We know juries are really good at doing that. So while meadows and some of the other defendants, trump, may perceive some advantage in moving into Federal Court where the jury pool exceeds Fulton County it goes up into georgias northern countiesch. On the east it touches alabama, so some very conservative parts of the state, you know, they may perceive an advantage. In reality there may not be a big one there. Even if there isnt an advantage i think joyce would agree with me what this shows is an opportunity for delay. This indictment hasnt even been baked for 24 hours and already they have a Removal Motion going and other defendants might do that. I think this shows you how fraught its going to be to deal with 19 people. The Motion Practices are going to go on for months. The idea this is six months in the making is just not realistic. I mean, joyce, i should mention Rudy Giuliani who we spent some time talking at the start of this program also believes it should be move to Federal Court. Is it a Forgone Conclusion . To set aside the jury piece of it how meaningfully could this delay . Laura is dead on the money. Progression practices here will be all about delay. It wont just be motions to remove. Well see a lot of them. Theyll be individual. Theyll have to be decided on their individual merits because these defendants will have different sort of status as to whether or not they can claim they were a federal official or acting under the orders of a federal official, which is necessary to trigger removal, theyll have different defenses. Itll be a mess, and thatll only be that one type of motion. Some defendants will file motions to dismiss saying the charges against them simply fail to state a federal crime. It should be dismissed on that basis. So six months will pass in the Blink Of An Eye i suspect while these pretrial motions are litigated. Whether this case ends up in Federal Court is a wide open question. But i think laura is right to say its not frivolous. And although the judge if the judge reads the paper whatever the defendant says to the federal judge is supposed to be a short, plain statement. This one is not. Its rathery lengthy and convoluted. The judge may look at it and say i cant read this and make a determination to say its okay to send it back to state court so we need to have an evidentiary hearing, and that of course involves more delay. I do wonder when you talk about the various codefendants having different status, laura, meadows lawyers are making the case what he did was arranging phone calls, visiting facilities down at the state, Cobb Countych i do wonder when we talk about flipping and the fact when you have such a large pool of codefendants, the goal of the prosecutor is to leverage these people against each other. Do you see this giant number of codefendants as a potential pool for flippage of course. Can we call it flippage . Im not sure. Of course. These are people who have very different Incentive Structures than a person than like Say Walt Nauta who has this unusual loyalty relationship with the former president. I dont know that kanye wests former publicist want to face 5 to 20 years in priz mchb do you want to gamble that with somebody you dont have a relationship with . This is a serious charge. I just think the incentives in this case are very different, and there are a wide range of people who are not Household Names who nay decide this is not something theyre willing to bear and put their families through. What about Household Names . As of tonight theres reporting Rudy Giuliani is in dire financial straights. His apartment is up for sale. In trumps inner circle youd think thats who prosecutors would want to go for in particular could turn to be a cooperating witness. Tell me how it works, joyce. Right. So the people that you want most as your cooperating witnesses are the people who bring you the most value in terms of what they can testify to. And may or may not be Rudy Giuliani in this situation. Something interesting with these folks whose names we recognize is many of them are lawyers. They appreciate what st. Might mean to spend two, three, five years in a florida prison. Theyre motivated to make sure thats not the outcome that awaits them at the end of this trial. I think its not unerably to assume well see some of these people file their legal plosions, see if they can get pulled from the herd if they have a defense unique to them or some other ability to escape this sort of prosecution. And then if they realize they really are right in fani willis sights they may reach the point they decide its time to go ahead and negotiate a deal to offer up whatever they have. It is a calculated risk, by the way, to litigate before you do that because typically the first people to cooperate get the best deal, but some of these folks may feel like they have potential defenses they want to run out, let them play out before they decide whether or not to plead guilty and cooperate. Okay, theres a lot more to talk to both of you guys about this, so please joyce vance and laura jarrett, do not go anywhere. When we come back the new revelations about the fake elector scheme in fani willis indictment and why another shoe may be about to drop. But first we know who the named and indicted coconspirators, but what about the unnamed and Unindicted Coconspirators . Who they could be and what they could do to this same case is coming up next. Stay with us. E case is coming up next stay with us me out of the bed . Baby, only on game nights. You know you are retired right . Am i . Ya save 50 on the sleep Number Limited Edition smart bed. Plus, free Home Delivery when you add a base. Shop now only at sleep number. So d. A. Fani willis Sprawling Indictment names donald trump and 18 other defendants accusing them of racketeering and 40 other crimes in thafr effort to overturn the 2020 Election Results in georgia, but the indictment also includes 30 unnamed Unindicted Coconspirators whose identities are known only to the grand jury down in georgia. Now, nbc news is still going through the indictment to figure out who these individuals might be, but certain details in this document point to specific people. For example, while the indictment does not say who unindicted coconspirator individual 8 is, it shows that this person, individual 8, took part in the fake elector scheme and tried to drum up public support for subverting the election with a tweet sent on December 9th Calling for voters to ask lawmakers for a special session. And that tweet matches word for word a tweet sent by then Georgia State senator burt jones also on december 7th. So unnamed and unindicted but for how long . Still with me joyce vance and laura jarrett. Laura, i mean were going to know the names of these 30 Unindicted Coconspirators one would presume relatively soon. It seems like jum the sleuthing weve done a fair number of them are fake electors who have Immunity Deals squared away. The rest of them are these potential Leverage Points for the federal government is that why theyre unnamed and unindicted yet . Perhaps the person whos going to provide some testimony in exchange for that, theyll get immunity. Sometimes the government just doesnt have the evidence to make the case for whatever reason. They think they dont have the texts or the calls. Sometimes its just messy, right, so you list them as un indicted coconspirator. I think well have to wait and see what else comes out on this, but i think its certainly clear that they have some people cooperating and that they want some more and that theyve certainly added this large group as a pressure meginism. Joyce, so 18 other named and indicted coconspirators, 30 unnamed and Unindicted Coconspirators. Were talking about a large number of people involved in this in one way or another, either directly indicted or floating around indictments, potentially cooperating. What is your assessment about how this case gets to trial . I mean how practically this seems so unwieldy, so sprawly. For the layman, lay person, how does fani willis get this done . Ia know when fani willis indicted another case, the atlanta educators case, a cheating scam on grading exams, she actually indicted 35 defendants. By the time she got to trial there were only 12 of them left, and thats this sort of Winnowing Procedure youre hinting at, alex, where some of these folks