Been made illegal. And the latest from hawaii as the death toll continues to climb. And officials begin to ask if there was anything more they could have done to save at least some of those lives. But we begin tonight with a question that i will bet you have never thought of but that the latest Trump Indictment got me thinking about it. It is this. What is a gang . Really, what is it . And what pops into your head when you think of the word. Our friends at merriamwebster define it as a group working to unlawful or antisocial ends, especially a band of antisocant adolescents. There have been many definitions. In the early 1900s, they were rowdy kids. On tv, our gang, otherwise known as the little rascals, spanky, alfalfa, and the bunch. There were the sharks and jets in west side story for those of you who love musical. In the modern era, people probably think of the crips or bloods or ms13, but the gangs that were most famous and notorious were the Mafia Families of the 1940s through the 1980s who terrorized, financially exploited and financially propped up ethnic communities in the irish, italian, jewish, and African AmericanDowntown Neighborhoods in cities like chicago, atlantic city, las vegas, and new york city. They defined what Law Enforcement and governments understood gangs to be. Law enforcement, however, struggled to prosecute these Criminal Organizations. Because their members were committing separate individual crimes that may have been associated but not necessarily connected in obvious ways to each other. Thats why the feds ultimately got al capone for tax evasion. It was not legally possible to get him any other way. It wasnt until 1970 that congress came up with a law that would allow federal prosecutors to connect the disparate crimes being committed by a bunch of individuals into a single prosecution. What we know as the rico act. Now, if you look at Donald Trumps indictment in georgia, Fulton County d. A. Fani willis repeatedly refers to trump, his 18 codefendants, and his 30 unnamed, unindicted coconspirators as this Criminal Organization. Quote, this Criminal Organization constituted an enterprise as that term is defined in georgias rico act statute, a group of individuals associated in fact. Shes basically describing them as a gang. The indictment continues, the defendants and other members and associates of the enterprise had connections and relationships with one another and with the enterprise. The enterprise constituted an ongoing organization whose members and associates functioned as a continuing unit for a common purpose of achieving the objectives of the enterprise. Thats the theory, that d. A. Fani willis is working with, that trump and a group of 18 other people with a variety of separate functions from a bunch of different places conspired to commit separate crimes in furtherance of a single conspiracy. Not to move drugs or to rob banks, but rather to rob voters of the Election Results they voted for. Shes basically indicted the trump gang, outside the scope of this legal case, theres another aspect of the larger trump gang, maga extremists, that seem to mirror common ganglike tactics. Namely a propensity for violence. What was january 6th, after all . Besides a show of force on behalf of their leader. The violence and threats of violence have continued ever since. A woman in texas has been arrested and charged this week after leaving a voice mail threatening federal judge tanya chutkan, the judge overseeing trumps january 6th conspiracy trial in d. C. According to the affidavit, the woman said, quote, if trump doesnt get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you. So tread lightly, bword, adding you will be targeted personally, publicly, your family, all of it. It is worth noting, that message came just one day after trumps if you go after me, im coming after you, post on his social media. Also this week, someone or some people released the purported names, photos, and addresses of the Fulton County grand jurors who voted to indict trump, putting the information on a fringe rightwing website that often features violent rhetoric. The list is also circulating on far right message boards. Its a tactic Michael Corleone would be proud of. One person wrote in response to the post, quote, these jurors have signed their Death Warrant by falsely indicting president trump. Wow, right . And scary. These grand jurors are now being added to the socalled trump enemies list for doing their civic duty, listening to the facts laid out to them and voting based on the evidence. And as someone who has been on the Receiving End of showing up on a list like this, i can tell you it is not long before you start getting threatening phone calls and emails nchg not to mention the online attacks. Since theres no way of knowing who is talking crap and who is serious, it does care you. If youre any kind of a normal person. But just think about how much more terrifying it is for someone who is not chosen to be in the public eye, and who might not have the resources to get protection. These grand jurors are just private ordinary Fulton County citizens. Not tv people. And theyre now facing the prospect of an onslaught of hate and threats from the maga gang. Because in every way that you can think of, maga is a gang. Like the crips or the bloods or the five families are, just with a different purpose. They keep everyone in line with threats. And the folks in the group are afraid to cross the leader. Hey, elected republicans. The leader takes stuff that doesnt belong to him. They defy Law Enforcement. They act in concert, sometimes to commit crimes. And yes, some of them are willing to choose violence. If im wrong, you got to tell me how. Im joined by ben collins, nbc news senior reporter, neal katyal, professor of law, former Acting Solicitor General and msnbc legal analyst, and peter strzok, former fbi counterintelligence agent. Peter, i want to start with you because you were in Law Enforcement. I thought about this the other day when i was reading the indictment, which is a fascinating read that gives a lot of detail about the lengths and pressure that was placed on Public Officials in georgia and out to try to force them to go along with this scheme to steal the election. It involved intimidation, it involved intimidation against election officials, it involved intimidation of brad raffensperger, the secretary of state. It was ganglike activity to me, but talk me down if you think im wrong about characterizing the maga gang as a gang. I think youre absolutely right. What was so compelling about the indictment was the scope and how broad it was. Walking through everything that went on trop the top at trump and all the efforts, whether it was trying to influence state officials, getting fake electors, breaking in to voting infrastructure, and all of the different people who went into doing it, all in looking at it like an enterprise, each of them connected in their own way as part of this, and absolutely, it is, when you look separately, not just the charges in the indictment, but the things that are coming around with it, its absolutely like something you would see in the mob, people coming up saying thats a great restaurant you got. It would be a shame if something happened to that. You see time and time again, you have grand jurors who have been threatened. You have judge chutkan in d. C. Who has been threatened. You have any number of people, gunmen, somebody who pulled a gun in utah after making a threat to president biden, somebody in texas under arrest for threatening judge chutkan. This isnt a potential of violence. Theres violence going on and its going on because of the inflam Tear Rhetoric coming out of trump. Ms13 is based in the western united states, but it showed up in other countries. You could have Gang Activity that shows up in disparate places but they have the same end goal. In this case, the end goal is power for trump. These threats made against the grand jurors in georgia, against the court personnel, arent just coming from georgia. Georgia authorities can do everything in their power to investigate, but at some point if the threats are coming from texas, from the west coast, this is a federal issue too. And its going to, im sad to promise you, its going to get worse. I will note they have also threatened federal Law Enforcement and fbi age nls as well. Ben, can you talk about the online part of this . You can guess when they start describing some of these sources of the, you know, explosion of this, some of the people that spread pizza gate and that kind of thing. You look at the dark web so wouldnt dont have to. How ugly is it getting . If youre a juror, youre probably starting to fear for your life. If youre on this grand jury, thats what youre thinking. Thats because theres a whole system set up called weaponizable data points. The guy who wrote the book called extremism, brought out when he said that when political candidates are looking for ways to advance their message but kind of run out of options, they go after specific people they think are weak. A really good example of this, weirdly enough, is in georgia. Ruby freeman. Back a couple years ago, i tried my damnedest to get her on the phone. I kept calling her because the word that kept coming into my head, very relevant to this discussion, is patsy. They tried to turn this poor old lady, basically, who had a mall kiosk store, that sold purses, by the way, into a patsy. And they sent one of their people, one of their consiglieres after her. Trying to get her to admit to a crime she did not do so they could create this whole established narrative that actually she is the standin for much larger election crime that actually did not happen. So what you see now is theyre trying to do that to these jurors. Theyre trying to say, to scare them into compliance. And you will just hope after seeing, they have been seeing this evidence for months if not years now. You would have to hope that they would see this coming. That they would be next. And thats precisely whats happening. Theyre getting the same treatment that the people who are victims in this suit, theyre getting that same treatment directed at them. Let me play for you all so you understand what ben is talking about. This is ruby freeman actually calling 911 because first its believe it or not a lutheran pastor who is one of the indicted people, one of the 18. Hes the first one to try to get to her. They call ruby freeman. You called her as a journalist. They were calling her over and over, back to back to back. Couldnt get her on the phone. Finally this pastor shows up at her door. She calls 911. Heres that call. They keep saying time is running out and im going to need some representation. They are saying i need help. And they can help me. Because they say theyre coming after me. Do you know who these people are . No, thats why i wanted the police to come. And go outside and talk with them with the police being there. Im not talking now. And just to correct, this was after the pastor tried to get in touch with her, then goes back to his fellow gang members and essentially says, she doesnt want to talk to me because shes afraid to talk to a white man. You do it. So a gentleman who is another one of the indicted people, neal, to bring you in here, who is the head of black voices for trump, he gets involved. He gets trivian coody, and he shows up, and thats why shes now calling 911. This is a classic, you know, basically intimidation campaign, neal. Thats 100 right. And you know, the quiet dignity of ruby freeman in response to this thuglike behavior, you know, its just its very moving to me. I do think that as this case goes towards trial, that type of story is going to resonate in the minds of the jurors. Its one thing, we have talked about all sorts of Big Crimes Trump and his henchmen committed like the fake electors plots and things like that, but this episode is such a powerful microcosm of what trump was doing. Its such a human story, anyone can wrap their mind around it. So i do suspect that it will play a big role in the trial to come. To stay with you for a moment, because the other thing about it is, back in the mob days you get this sense that like the Public Officials feared them as well, and sometimes played ball. Donald trump and his team attempting to get a 2026 trial date in response to the government saying lets get this trial done in january, youre starting to laugh because i think youre going to say its laughable. Is that in any way a reasonable difference between the request of the government and the request of the defendant, neal . I mean, laughable gives it so much credit, joy. I dont actually have adjectives in my vocabulary, at least not ones i can say on television. Just to be clear, this is the trump has moved for the delay of the trial date in washington, d. C. For the january 6th crimes, the jack smith prosecution. So this is not about the georgia indictment, but about the federal indictment. And look, i mean, trump has literally filed a document just moments ago saying april 2026 is when he wants that trial to start. I never in my 20plus years of practicing law seen a request anything like that, and ill eat my hat if judge chutkan accepts it, because look, justice delays is justice denied. To me, the key thing about this episode, joy, is what does this filing, april 2026, tell us about Donald Trumps view of the merits of the case against him . Because look, if youre innocent, if you are you or me and were accused of launching a coup and subverting democracy and launching january 6th, you would want this trial right away. You would want to clear your name, but not this guy. This guy is scared of going to trial. He talks all the bluster he wants outside of the courtroom, but he is terrified of actually being in a courtroom, and when he is in one, he clams up. So to me, this is just further indicia of his own consciousness of guilt. Hes entitled to make these filings. But i think it tells us a lot about his own state of mind. Hes like, lets have the trial in the month of neverty. Lets do it then. Let me come back to the mob mf like behavior. This is to me the most mafioso like moments. This is donald trump doing the crime on tape and Calling Raffensperger and essentially threatening him and saying go along with my scheme or else. Look, all i want to do is this, where just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state. He goes on to say, you know, if you dont do it, you might be committing a rhyme. Its mob behavior. Its not, hey, i think theres a problem here. When you lay out someone is facing potential threats because of not doing something, it absolutely is a threat to do something. Thats whats so important about the threats right now going out to the grand jurors. Part of that is retribution, part of that is people trying to get back at them, but a bigger issue is thats intended to send a message, because there are going to be jurors in the criminal trials, in Fulton County, in washington, d. C. , down in florida, and those jurors will have watched all of this going on, and to have them on edge, to have them worried about their safety, to have them worried about doing their job. This isnt about just getting back at the team who sit on the grand jury, this is a message for all these future trials and those people who get selected for jury duty, theyre going to come after you too. And witnesses. If we have seen the doxing of the grand jurors in georgia, if youre going to be a witness, if you then get that notice to be a witness in any of these trials, now you have to fear that you wind up on whatever elon musk is calling his silly Twitter Machine or on truth social, and youre getting threatened the same way these grand jurors are. Yeah, and sometimes, by the way, the rolling terror of the last few years will have you legitimately start to fear that, like the guy who shot up the fbi office or the White Nationalist murders over the last few years where sometimes they cite trump, sometimes they say trumps not going far enough, that sort of thing. I want to stress this. When youre on these forums all day, they care about two things. One thing which is getting donald trump elected and going after all his enemies. Thats why ron desantis poll numbers amongst the Republican Base dipped about 50 . Thats not a miracle, not magic. Its because Donald Trumps people viewed him as a threat and pushed him down to totem pole, even though they agree on almost everything. They pushed him off because its a cult of personality around that one guy. And then hatred of trans people. Those are the two things that matter right now on trump message boards. Thats it. Theres no other thing. So if they find a way, if they find a new character every day to go after, if they dig into the life stories of these jurors which they will, by the way, they will absolutely do that, that allows them new content in that space. This Fun Little QanonStyle Mission on a day to day basis, but it really functions as a Campaign Message to go after these people as well. Neal, donald trump has been told at least in the january 6th federal case that he is not to disclose information deemed sensitive including witness information. But hes allowed to do whatever he wants at this point and say whatever he wants about the judge in the georgia case who just has been assigned, about the d. A. Fani willis, and at some point do the threats against the people involved in his case in some way redound back to him and is he legally liable in any way for them . He can be. Theres a distinction about what he says about the judge and criticism of the judge, there are some ethical prohibitions against that and rules of the court, but thats a different matter than when youre trying to intimidate witn