According to our reporters, the former president s lawyers at times seemed to be arguing for an audience of one, and it wasnt the judge saying maralago was worth at least A Billion Dollars, and so was doral. That real estate valuations are subjective coming down to whatever a person is willing to pay. That there was no harm. The banks made money, and quote, there was no intent to defraud, period, the end. What was curious is that trumps lawyers were making some of the same arguments the judge has repeatedly thrown out, and they were doing it confrontationally. Were going to ask our experts why, since this was a bench trial. And Michael Cohen, Donald Trumps old fixer really is the quote, lynch pin of this case, as the defense argues, and whether his sworn testimony that the valuations of Donald Trumps properties were based on trumps desire to be be quote, higher on the forbes list are credible, and more importantly legally relevant. Now that Court Appears to be back in session after the lunch break. Lets get caught up on the latest. Joining us now is nbc news correspondent Vaughn Hillyard who is outside of 60 Center Street for us, nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, and Bloomberg OpinionSenior Executive editor, a man who knows so much about Donald Trumps finances, tim obrien. Vaughn, im going to begin with you. There arent any cameras in the courtroom. They were there for a moment in the beginning. They were told to leave. Were getting a lot of color from our reporters inside the courtroom. What can you tell us has happened so far after the lunch break . Reporter right, this is now hour number six. This is going to be a trial that goes on five days a week. The judge set up potentially all the way to december 22nd. Of course that could change here. This is a courtroom in which not only donald trump is attending in person, he does not have to attend, and we dont expect him to attend for most of this trial. But lee Letitia James, the assit Attorney General, the lead prosecutor, the one who announced this initial lawsuit against donald trump is in the courtroom as well. That is rather small gallery there, but Letitia James is seated a few rows behind where donald trump is seated and there was a moment from the producers in where they described the moment where donald trump walked by and glared at Letitia James, and came to the microphone, lambasting, the Attorney General, suggesting she has been on a political vendetta since she announced her run for Attorney General. And this will ultimately be decided by a judge. There is no jury in this case, and the judge will be the one to determine the extent to which donald trump, his two adult children, don jr. And eric, as well as the Trump Organization are liable for the financial fraud laid out in the Attorney Generals lawsuit that was first filed more than a year ago. Its interesting, vaughn, that donald trump is going after the Attorney General, but also more importantly after the judge, and hes doing so right outside of the Courtroom Doors in these lunch breaks or recess breaks. Can we play a little bit . I think we have it, of what donald trump has been saying about the courtroom. Did you misstate the size of your apartment by 25,000 square feet. My Financial Statements, just for you, by the way. Its a rigged deal. My Financial Statements are much lower than the actual network. This judge and your fake Attorney General of new york whos driving business out, whos letting murderers run all over the city, they dont do anything to murderers running all over the city. The Attorney General is a racist, Letitia James, she ought to be ashamed of herself. Thats him going after Letitia James, it wasnt the sound byte where hes going after the judge, calling the judge deranged. Why were you asking him specifically about the Square Footage of his penthouse . Reporter right, that was the friday Campaign Stop in los angeles in which i was joining the former president , and you could hear me try to ask him just one of the examples laid out by Letitia James is his Midtown Manhattan trump tower apartment in which they claimed it was 30,000 square feet, in reality, its 10,000 square feet. The value is 310 million, which is three times more than any apartment has ever been sold in new york city. Allen weisselberg told the Attorney Generals Office that at least it was about 200 million over valued but you heard donald trump not directly answer my question, my attempted question to him about the overvaluation. But for donald trump, so much of this is not even about the facts, and we should know in one of the moments he took to the microphone this afternoon, he was talking about the Appellate Court and ill let your legal expert, including ken, get more into the details, but donald trump was hoping that the Appellate Court would delay the trial from Going Forward or toss it out all together, suggesting that the statute of limitations applies to this case. Last week, Appellate Court ordered today could happen, and the first day of trial could move forward. Donald trump frustrated by the mere existence of this lawsuit, going on attack not only against the Attorney General but also the judge overseeing this case. Of course, a play book that we have seen donald trump go forward with in the past, and the situation of the judge, its not like the judge is going to leave the courtroom. For donald trump, unless he chooses to testify himself before the judge, going and walking outside of the courtroom is his best microphone, outside of going on the campaign trail, and convincing millions of americans that he is being facing an unfair civil lawsuit from the new York Attorney general. Lets talk about the fact that he showed up today at all. Ken dilanian, we dont usually see him in court. He said hes going to show up in the past but he hasnt done so, at least in new york. What did it mean today to have him in that courtroom . Thats right, katy, and hes not required to be here. Its a civil trial, but he chose to be here. For one thing, he got a moment that was broadcast widely where he got to denounce the proceedings and get his Point Of View across as only donald trump can do, saying things that have been refuted by a judge in his partial Summary Judgment ruling last week. Its important to remember. Most of the contested issues in this trial have been decided. The judge has ruled that donald trump committed massive fraud. The real question in the trial is going to be the damages and the remedies, whether he will have to pay 250 million as the Attorney General is seeking. For trump, it almost appears this is as much about politics and image making as it is about the law because he may be figuring that, look, hes already lost with this judge. The judge has made it clear, he thinks theres fraud. Hes not counting on a great outcome. He may or may not win in the Appeals Court but hes going to try to win in the court of public opinion. Thats why he showed up today knowing that the cameras would follow. Tim, so much of this is about reputation, and what donald trump has built around himself in terms of a legend of the successful businessman. Its being pierced by this judge. It has been pierced by this judge who ruled last week, he based business on fraud, that he was a cheat. Coming into this, you know, performative episode today, a lot of it was fore gone conclusions. Its not a matter of finding him guilty of fraud. Its a matter of how much pain hes going to suffer, based on the penalty financially, and the removal of new york businesses from him, his children and his entire company. I think its a measure, i think of how lost he actually is that hes Prioritizing Vaudeville over sitting quietly, and trying to let this proceeding go in a different direction, and im sure he believes already that its going to go against him. He has nothing to lose. This is basically a performance for the campaign. Yes, its a performance for the campaign. His lawyers are performing for him. His lawyers are in over their heads. But none of that really matters because i think at the end of the day, he sees himself as a political figure. He might appeal it. If he loses the appeal, hes going to lose quite a bit of money. Letitia james is looking for 215 million, which you found is what hes worth. Most of his wealth is concentrated in new york. If he has to let go of his businesses here, theres a small handful of skyscrapers that account for a lot of his wealth. If hes forced to sell under fire sale conditions, hes not going to make as much money as he might otherwi be able to, and hes not going to operate in the city anymore. His familys legacy is here. His ability, i think to reposition himself as a businessn is here, and i think hes basically letting go of all of that. In the service of being a cult leader politically. Having to forfeit his identity. What about the idea that doral is worth at least A Billion Dollars or maralago is worth A Billion Dollars. It is worth as much as somebody is willing to pay for it. Do they have any argument that those things can go out and say that in order to get favorable loans . Maralago is encumbered by all sorts of zoning restrictions. Its a members club. Trump had to turn it into a club because he couldnt afford to own it at the time that he bought it. Hes not gngo sell it for A Billion Dollars in my estimation. The day the judge said you are all overvaluing maralago. Eric took to twitter, the judge is wrong, its worth A Billion Dollars, as they all continue to say, one, they cant control themselves, and two, they dont think theres going to be consequence for it. I guess, put it into laymans terms. Why does it matter . He can say what he wants about the property. Why is it problematic to claim hes got more Square Footage than he does or his property is worth, you know, x times as much as it likely is worth. Square footage isnt, but Property Values are subjective to a degree. To a degree, but to a small degree, you can compare them to other properties in the same area. You can compare them to how much of the property you actually own. In trumps case, they are owned by the people. He controls the commercial space on the first two floors, does it the land underneath it. Thats leased. He does it at the end of the day, he sees wealth as a pecking order, and hes so deeply insecure about his track record as a businessman, and how he is perceived by others that he cant help to exaggerate things. You cant walk into a bank and say lend me 500 million because i have A Billion Dollars in assets when you maybe only have 2 million in assets. They argue the banks made money. There was no harm done. Thats not true in every case. Some of the banks may argue that they werent damaged. One of the witnesses in this case is on both sides, rosemary vrablik, of Deutsche Bank is on the prosecutions witness list and the defenses witness list. I think the prosecution is going to say to her, he lied to you, didnt he, and you got burned, and theyre going to hope she says yes. I think the defense is going to say, he came in and showed you what he had, and you thought they were good honest reflections of how much money, and you knew better, correct, and theyre going to hope she says yes. I can do what i want but the banks are going to go in and take their own assessment. Thats what they have, indeed, argued but the insurers, i think, have a different view of this matter. I dont think all the banks are uniform in how they see these things having gone down. I think thats part of what the testimony is about, but, again, the fraud is already baked in. Its already been decided. Its how much money hes going to pay. And whether hell hold on to the new York Properties which are tied up in his identity, The Myth Making Around Who donald trump is. Tim obrien, thank you so much. Its good to see. Vaughn hillyard, ken dilanian, gentlemen, thank you as well. Coming up next, donald trump is trashing the judge, as i said a moment ago, who will decide how much he owes in his civil fraud case. And hes doing it outside of the courtroom during breaks in the trial. We have our legal expert here to tell us what that will mean for a decision. Plus, do democrats save Speaker Mccarthys job . The sign we saw over the weekend that suggests they might, and if they do, what would they get in return . We are back in 60 seconds. We ar. Delicious too. Just ask my old friend, kevin. Nothing like enjoying a cold one while watching the game. Whos winning . We are, my friend. We are. all toooo youuuuu sean i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro d. jason sean do you mean this one the one with titanium . sean no way i can trade this busted up thing for one. jason maybe stealing wishes from the birthday boy is not your best plan switch to verizon and trade in any iphone and get the new iphone 15 pro on them. sean what . jason yup, and on an Amazing Network sean and i dont have to ruin anymore Birthday Parties jason yeah, that ship has sailed. Lets go get you the iphone. Here we go, come on hon. vo trade in any iphone in any condition for a new iphone 15 pro on us. Only on verizon. Whenever youre hungry, theres a deal on the subway app. Buy one footlong, get one 50 off in the subway app today. Now thats a deal worth celebrating. Man, what are you doing . get it before its gone on the subway app. Lets keep this conversation going, joining us is former brooklyn prosecutor, and msnbc legal analyst, charles coleman. Always good to have you. I want to start with what i tease, the idea that donald trump is going after the person whos going to be deciding his fate here. The judge is going to be deciding. Its not a jury. Its a bench trial. Let me play this time the sound byte where donald trump is going after the judge directly, again, right outside of the courtroom. This judge should change his ruling because Palm Beach County said he was totally wrong, and he was ruling based on them. We didnt even have a chance to testify. I got a call last week, sir, we lost part of the case. I said, the trial didnt even start, you know, the trial starts, i guess, today. He ruled that we lost a big part of the case because hes a democrat politician. Hes a democrat operative. And hes a disgrace to people that call themselves judges. And i hope my lawyers go in, and i hope they fight him very hard. Because this guy is getting away with murder. Okay. So i know Donald Trumps been around the legal world for a long time. Im sure that his lawyers at the very least if he didnt know already have explained what Summary Judgment means where a judge can go in and make a decision if he decides so, and thats what happened on friday, and this trial is about, again, we have been talking about this, how much money he owes and whether he will maintain control of his properties. Its a bench trial. Is it a good idea to go after the judge . At the end of the day, it doesnt matter. To echo what ken and tim were just talking about. This is a performance for the campaign audience. This is donald trump not the defendant, its donald trump the candidate. I was laughing when i was watching him because ive had so many of these conversations before, but its truly sad because what hes doing is capitalizing on the ignorance of the public that does not necessarily understand how the legal system works, like you already talked about. He knows because his attorneys explained to him and because hes not unfamiliar with the courts what Summary Judgment is and why hes in the position that hes in. But his followers, his acolytes, his devotees, they dont understand that and hes capitalizing that on that by making it seem he was denied access to a legal trial. And understand this is a narrative that we can fully expect to hear parroted and repeated by many people who arent as sophisticated but who do follow him and take his word as law as if to suggest that because this judge is a democratic person, hes not someone who can be trusted and railroaded donald trump into not getting a fair trial. Alena haba, and some of the other attorneys got pretty confrontational according to our reporters inside the courtroom with the judge, arguing that donald trump didnt hurt anybody, there was no harm done, no fraud, and that the judge should pay attention, the witnesses matter, the evidence matters, insinuating that he wasnt paying attention before, and theyre making some of the same arguments that he has previously thrown out and scolded them, reprimanded them. Sanctioned them. Sancti