These two men were both a heartbeat away from being interesting this evening. It was a Vice President ial debate. One of these men will lose and we will never from him again. The other one will become vp again and we will never hear from him again. 4144. All right. A look at the late night takes of Vice President ial nominees tim Walz And J. D. Vance. The Ohio Senator largely kept things cordial in last Nights Debate focusing most of their attacks at their Running Mates at the top of the ticket. We are going to go through the big moments from what could be the final faceoff between the campaigns before election day. We will bring you a live report from The Middle East following a major escalation by iran launching a massive ballistic Missile Attack on israeli. We will have the very latest developments just ahead. Two major stories this morning. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. Its wednesday, october 2nd. Along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of Way Too Early white House Bureau Chief at politico, jonathan lemire. Msnbc political analyst Elise Jordan who is an aide to the White House department. The house to on brand with Donnie Deutsche who is with us. As well as professor at princeton university, Eddie Glaude Jr. And the author of the Book Charlie sykes. We want to start with you. As i was nervously preparing to watch the debate, you kept reminding me Vice President ial debates dont matter that much. After watching that night, do you still feel that way . I do, i do. Vice President Ial debates dont matter. If they did, Michael Dukakis would have been elected in 1988. Several interesting things occurred, even though Vice President ial debates dont matter. Polls show that midwestern nice actually worked, despite walzs shaky start, despite his stumbles on the China Answer, which i have no idea why he didnt have an answer ready for that other than saying im a knucklehead. Ill remember that. Just, generally, you had with j. D. Vance, you had the elitist. The Guy Who went to an Ivy League School and smoothly knew to answer the questions smoothly and knew how to work the format. I think most people would say he did much better Last Night stylistically. You never know how things will come across. When i saw the Cnn Poll that came out Last Night, it showed that midwestern nice really worked for walz. Tim Walzs Favorability jumped up 15 and 59 Favorability Rating after the debate and 22 favoribility before the debate. I dont care where are you, you have to look at the numbers. That is normal for american politics. For those watching saying he looked too nervous but something viewers liked that undecided voters and registered voters liked about Tim Walz. Maybe something we will sort through the next few weeks even though it wont have much impact on the election. J. D. Vans is upside down. 41 favorable and 44 unfavorable but he showed a side he has not shown before and that is he tried to be more likeable. He tried to be more agreeable. The people who knew him before he decided to be a trumper said he was a nice guy. Almost you got a sense that this election may end and he doesnt want to completely tie himself to Donald Trump. He is 40 years old. He has a future. While trump likes going to War Nonstop against everybody, you got to say for j. D. Vance decided, you know what . Im going to try to salvage my political career even if Donald Trump goes up in flames. And so that would have all been fine and dandy. No doubt this morning, there will be consternation in maralago that everybody is saying j. D. Vance should talk to the rest of the campaign and Donald Trump should shut up because j. D. Vance is better at this than Donald Trump. Not even a close call. Lying . He is smoother. If you want to say a smooth liar, you can. But Donald Trump, he is getting old. They are not even letting him do 60 minutes because they know he is not capable of doing it. Because he Cant Answer Policy questions. But, still, j. D. Vance, willie, j. D. Vance was stylistically better. He told a lot of lies about aca and other issues but i will say this, j. D. Vance was very clarifying at The End of this debate. He told viewers everywhere that was watching if you hate american democracy when things dont go your way, vote for me. If you hate everything that James Madison put together and Alexander Hamilton put together in the constitution, if you hate the tradition of peaceful transition, that really, really define an ensure american democracy, you hate that if Donald Trump doesnt win every election, vote for me. It was one of the most clarifying moments in any President Ial or Vice President ial debate we could ever see, because he clearly said, he was going to continue the lies of Donald Trump and not even answer debates at question. Did Joe Biden win the 2020 election . Yes, that will work very well for a lot of hard right people on the internet and maybe on x and other Social Media platforms but he defined himself. He defined his campaign. And he defined the choice in this election. I am not a democrat. I doubt i will ever be a democrat. Im an independent. And im one of those people that is looking at both of these guys and, you know, people ask me why dont you support the republicans . J. D. Did my work for me Last Night because one side is antidemocratic. The other side is prodemocracy, proconstitutional republic and Projames Madison checks and balances. Propeaceful transfer of power. What about womens rights . You can debate that. Yes, i did. That has been part of the debate since 1973. But its not been part of the debate. Its whether we continue with a constitutional of public where there are peaceful transition of power and, Last Night, j. D. Vance refused to answer whether he supported the peaceful transfer of power, willie. As Robert Frost would say, if youre the Robert Frost or horacek and that made all of the difference. After a strong Debate Performance that, i agree with you, that youre hearing where it had republicans saying either j. D. Vance is the future of the republican party or i wish he were at the top of the ticket because he is so much better at this than Donald Trump, at The End he was asked a simple question from Tim Walz who turned to him and said, did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election . He did not answer that question. By The Way, leading up to that, he said again and again, we had a peaceful transfer of power. Okay. Maybe in that one hour on that one day in January 20th, it was peaceful. As, by The Way, the capitol was ringed with Security Fence because of what happened on January 6th and trying to rewrite history. Here was the change at The End that joe was talking about. Would you, again, take the challenge this Years Election results even if every governor certified the results, ill give you two minutes. First of all i think we are focused on the future. We need to figure out how to solve the Inflation Policies and make housing and groceries affordable and what we are focused on. I want to answer your question because you asked it. President trump said problems in 2020 and my own belief we should fight about those issues and debate those issues peacefully in the Public Square and all ive said and all that Donald Trump has said. Its really rich for democratic leaders to say Donald Trump is a unique threat to the democracy when he peacefully gave over power on January 20th as we have done for 250 years in this country. This was a threat to our democracy in a way we had not seen and it manifested itself because of Donald Trumps unability to say. He is still saying he didnt lose the election. I ask you, did he lose the 2020 election . Im focused on the future. Did Kamala Harris Censor Americans from speaking their mind in the wake of the 2020 covid situation . That is a damn be nonanswer. Im concerned where is the Fire Wall with Donald Trump . Where is the Fire Wall . If he knows, he could do anything, including taking an election and his Vice President will not stand to it and what we are asking you, america. Will you stand up . Will you keep your oath of office even if the president doesnt . And i think Kamala Harris would agree she wouldnt have picked me if she didnt think i would do that because, of course, that is what we would do. America, i think youve got a really clear choice on this election of who is going to honor that democracy and who is going to honor Donald Trump. Donnie, plain and simple. Governor walz turned to j. D. Vance. Did he lose the election as the court decided and everyone around has said since. He couldnt answer the question. For as smooth as j. D. Vance was for his fluent as he sounded on policy, we will get into some of the contradictions that Donald Trump tried to save it when the exact opposite happened. Misrepresenting his own record. J. D. Vance on the issue of abortion and a lot to comb through but he was good Last Night. That moment crystallizes the whole moment. He was good. He was too slick, maybe, but He Serm was not the kind of despicable character that we kind have seen clips of. I thought it was a draw up until that point and i think that was disqualifying in the election if you cant say that. I think that is the issue that whenever i get into debates with anybody i go, democracy . On the docket. I want to go back to kimmels joke at the beginning that it was boring. I was thinking the whole time, this is going to be a referendum what people want going forward. I think the theme it was congenial and not a good sport and not ufc but more like boxing. Is the american public intuition is the american public is ready for that and want that but i said to myself, is there a sick twisted thing that people are addicted to the sick Entertainment Value of Donald Trump and that they were kind of disappointed . I was enjoying it but i dont know, that is no fun. Are we going to go back to that . My better angels say, no, people are ready for that. What joe said this morning in maralago, what is going on people are going up as they are getting their danish and bundt cake at maralago saying vance was great Last Night, wasnt he great . That is going to bother him and really bother him that he was better than Donald Trump that he could litigate the case better than Donald Trump. Donald trump, he will be very dismissive of j. D. Vance in the coming weeks but Donald Trump is not happy with himself because j. D. Vance showed himself to be a better candidate. Trump did praise him on Social Media Last Night. You did get the sense watching j. D. Vance Last Night, jonathan lemire, he was aware of his likability of being in the dumps of Donald Trump and being a figure that people want to look away from that they are sick of and to present in those 90 minutes any way a reasonable alternative. Now, you could only think that if you only watched last Night And Hadnt seen Everything Else he does on the Campaign Trail Daytoday in Support Of Donald Trump. Vance put forward his best version of himself Last Night and the two were so civil that vance almost normalized walz. Tim walz is on the ticket because he is talked about republicans are weird and he never used that Last Night. To donnies point, he praised Vances Appearance he talked about Pete Rose being in the Hall Of Fame . His own intention was sort of lost. I was struck that Governor Walz, he sort of took a pass on what could have been some devastating attacks and didnt mention the weird issue and never brought up the childless didnt come. You didnt talk about Ukraine And Vance maid clear he has no interest in supporting kyiv and probably brought up project 2025 once. That final minute in January 6th about January 6th was walzs best moment and the Harris Campaign has already it was the best moment but The End of the debate so a little late. I was disappointed. I felt like the reasons that Kamala Harris chose Governor Walz didnt really come out Last Night. The Governor Walz who was joking and who was free flowing in interviews, who was kind of, you know, that guy in your hometown who is a local leader and he is a lot of fun but he can be serious . I just saw someone trying to be who he wasnt and it allowed j. D. Vance to just skate through. It was disappointing, too, Governor Walz didnt have a better answer why he has said previously that he was in square when he wasnt. He said i misspoke. Im sorry. He almost made it worse. I agree with you. I was surprised by that moment. I was surprised by a number of moments like that but we will take that one as the example. By The Way, i dont think it matters how late the great moment was because, unfortunately, We Tv people. We are not that important any more. People take nuggets online on Social Media. Its the truth. Yeah. Its going to be all about the clips and what is put out here and there, so he can still win the day and its showing the reaction is not bad to Tim Walz. I will say, though, to that answer. What are you talking about . I misspoke. He is dehumanizing migrants and they are begging Trump And Vance to stop doing this to their community and he is lying about the 2020 election. I misspoke six hours ago. These guys lie for a living. That would have been my answer. It would have been a lot of peoples answer. No doubt that despite if you look at the numbers walz won this debate. If you look at the Cnn Poll, polling shows vance with a slight advantage but in terms of favorability, against his Favorability Rating went up 59 . Unfavorable, 22 , vance 44 . As youre looking at that number, its really interesting. You look at that number, eddie, and i go back. I go back to what elise just said. Guy in your hometown is the effect he gave off. Yeah. He was nervous Last Night. He will started out nervous. He found his footing. But it was an uneven performance, at best. I reminded what andy said about george w. Bush. The things elite make the most fun of, the fact that bush talks like a regular guy, that bush is smooth, is not a smooth talker. His syntax is a little off. The new york times and the Washington Post what they dont understand is that is why regular guys like bush so much and you can say the same thing about Joe Biden but you look at the favorable and unfavorables after the debate and you just kind of wonder if they are looking at the Ivy League Guy and seeing what a smooth talker he was. Then the regular Guy Who, again, stumbled around a little bit, was nervous, but they are thinking, yeah, who wouldnt be nervous . And maybe that is why his favorablity went up so much. When you and i talk. You Ivy League Guy, very smooth. Im a country lawyer. I struggle getting through senate. I struggle getting through a senate. Its kind of like when i was at gettysburg and i was there. Im a knucklehead. You go ahead and answer the question. Joe, i think youre right. There were moments where i was rooting for him. Come on, governor, Come On, Come On, make it that empathetic experience of wanting him to do better and may help us explain it. I think youre right. He was nervous in the very beginning. He found his footing, especially on the issue of Health Care, abortion and January 6th. Remember that line . He said that is the only reason Mike Pence is not standing here because of what i thought that was one of the more powerful lines of the night when he basically said that j. D. Vance is here because he would allow Donald Trump to basically undermine madisonian democracy, right . I think he was coached in such a way that he did not hold vance accountable. He allowed vance to play as a reasonable guy. He allowed vance to reinvent the Trump Agenda. He didnt paint him, tattoo him with project 2025. In fact, vance wrote the preface to it but vance didnt have to depend it outside of the question around abortion. So i thought that Minnesota Niceness was i guess endearing to some but the danger that the Trump Vance Ticket requires a little more progression to me, joe. What i was saying about the debate, so many easy layups that Joe Biden didnt make. We saw the same thing Last Night. Not as disastrous for Tim Walz, he survived it. It seems the Harris Campaign has been neutral last week or so. It would have been good to turn to j. D. Vance and saying youre lying. And weird. And youre making this up and bring up all of the things that had been defined j. D. Vances campaign and that didnt happen. No. You think what happened this week. J. D. Vance won on style points but is this is not figure skating. Put it in context. I guess that was my reaction was not only the lost opportunity but the whole Debate And Walzs performance the normalizing and house breaking j. D. Vance. But the reality is that j. D. Vance is slick and smooth but he is still a bull artist. He was defined by that last couple of minutes where he refused to acknowledge that Donald Trump lost the election and that is disqualified but, to your point about the missed opportunities. In the last few days, Donald Trump came to my Home State of wisconsin and engaged in an hour of pure your bridled hatred did immigrants and continues to lie about immigrants. Yesterday, he insulted american soldiers saying they just had headaches after they were attacked by iranian missiles. Who was, you know, lied about the Disaster Recovery efforts of helene. All of that. Yet you have to pull back the lens a little bit and think this is not a normal President Ial campaign and, yet, the issue of the debate Last Night lets have the two guys talk about negative policy. No. This is not a normal campaign. And j. D. Vance, the j. D. Vance you saw Last Night is very, very different than the j. D. Vance you see on the right Wing Podcast and the j. D. Vance youre talking about the childless Cat Lady and lying about haitian immigrants. But coming back to the fact that j. D. Vance was exposed in that final disqualifying nonanswer. He was. If im a politician, if im going up against j. D. Vance, im thinking like a politician. What do politicians think about . Politicians think about their constituents. Or they should. They should think how do i help my constituents . How do i make their lives better and how do i make their children safer and make