Given credit for how and more mature than its usually given credit for how noteworthy was this summer of 2009000 in manifesting these noteworthy was the summer of 2009000 in manifesting this sort of better than the given credit for nature of russia its sort of better than the given credit for nature of Russian Civil Society in the just Civil Society but society in general well on one hand this is a society in the just Civil Society but society in general well on one hand this is not the 1st definitely wave of protests and quite mass protests that with which most of the 1st definitely wave of protests and quite mass protests that with which most starting 2007 Team Every Year we have more or less mass starting 2007 team most every year we have more or less mask. Our activity on the streets in various russian state is i would say this activity on the streets in various russian state is i would say that even for example 2008 when there were some protests that even for example 2008 when there were some protest events also in more school we had more our violence on the streets not to advance also in more school we had more our violence on the streets not Police Violence but. Other. Otherwise Police Violence but. Other. Otherwise inclined civic groups like the corps arcs they were much more violent sometimes inclined civic groups like the corps arcs they were much more violent sometimes than anything we have seen in 19 and they would also like to us than anything we have seen in. Team and i would also like to remind that one of the them members of the president ial council remind that one of the them members of the president ial council for civil rights left the council as a sign of protest for this for civil rights left the council as a sign of protest for these things that were happening so on one hand it was not something new and out of the things that were happening so on one hand it was not something new and out of the blue because the recession impression that we then remax the event happening lou because the recession impression that we then remax the events happening it looks like all the people who are witnesses to it were born yesterday only we are having young it looks like all the people who are witnesses to it were born yesterday oh we are having young people on the street i think its not just about the protests i mean we also had a number of high profile people on the street i think its not just about the protests i mean we also had a number of high profile. For example involved journalist yvonne we also just. For example involved journalist yvonne we also just going to galvanise just decided weeks before this outburst in more school that was camilla very eyes just decided weeks before this outburst in more school that was connected with moscow city to do more elections we had this little more keys we sure as talking with moscow city to do more elections we had this goal of keys we sure as talking surprise us which was a surprise for me because i remember quite well when i 1st read the prizes which was a surprise for me because i remember quite well when i 1st read the news of the journalist being detained with rocks i remember my idea i was the use of the journalist being detained with rocks i remember my idea i was on the consul then but i thought well this is these are media people they can differ on the council then but i thought well this is these are media people they can defend their own kind so no need to trouble myself about it so i was on their own kind so no need to trouble myself about it so i wasnt ready for the magnitude of things happening that when they began with ready for the magnitude of things happening that when they began to happen it was this time that society as it is was ready to happen it was this time that society as it is was ready to react to what it sees as and fear and unjust and to react to what it sees as on fear and unjust and thats in line with what you have been writing about that starting from around 2017 thats in line with what you have been writing about that starting from around 2017 theres been a shift in the polls in attitudes towards public protest i think the problem theres been a shift in the polls in attitudes towards public protest i think the. As themselves have become more broad based its not just professional protesters but kind of lame matters themselves have become more broad based its not just professional protesters but kind of lay man who didnt take to the streets before certainly new people came to be pro who didnt take to the streets before certainly new people keen to be protesters not just people we tend to notice young people more because were sort of testers not just people we tend to notice young people more because wes issues with them naturally with the future with tomorrow but are as far as we can judge them naturally with the future with tomorrow but are as far as we can judge bias its a logical data of the general composition of people out in the bias its a logical data of the general composition of people out on the streets is analogous to the demographic picture of society in general streets is analogous to the demographic picture of society in general the median age is 4940. But well the median age is 4940. But we do have people who are not as you see professional protest as not people who have been we do have people who are not as you see professional protest as not people who have been committed to really going out since the middle of 2000 we have new people can be truly going out since the middle of 2000 we have a new people out and this is a change and of the processes that you mentioned is called by some out and this is a change and of the processes that you mentioned is called by scientologists the normalization of protest and this is a whim people not just the normalization of protest and this is where i am people not who do not participate themselves begin to suppose that brought us to give it to him with self who do not participate themselves begin to suppose that brought us to give it to him with self. Is normal and should not be suppressed by the state this is reading you think is normal and should not be suppressed by the state this is read a new thing for russian Public Opinion because previously it was manifestly seen as a danger that for russian Public Opinion because previously it was manifestly seen as a danger think that the attitude of authorities. To progress until recently if this was the attitude of authorities to protest until recently if this was also pretty mild in moscow i think the number of greenlight was also pretty mild in moscow i think the number of green lived rallies has actually increased and as you mentioned before the overall level of rallies has actually increased and as you mentioned before the overall level of street violence was very very low why then all of a sudden in the middle of 2 of street violence was very very low why then all of a sudden in the middle of 2001000 there has been such a. You know Strong Police in 1000 there has been such a. You know Strong Police of of the of the of public protests not the least by the authorities themselves of of the of the of public protests not the least by the authorities themselves there were some kind of tradition that in more school it is allowable for people there were some kind of tradition that in more school it is allowable for people to sometimes get out on the street at the same time since the change bill to sometimes get out on the street at the same time seems the change in legislation that wars implemented before 2014 in legislation that wars implemented before 2014 the price of unauthorized sanctions socalled protos became great yearly higher the price of unauthorized sanctions socalled protos became great yearly hire me. More fines are more days of administrative forest down being famous more fines are more days of administrative forests and then being famous criminal code article 2 of 212 point one criminal code article 2 of 200 12. 00 which criminalize us ruby to administrative have found during com which criminalize us ruby to administrative have found during Public Meetings and religious so the prize was raised by the authorities Public Meetings and religious so the prize was raised by the authorities at the same time there were some kind of understanding that people can sometimes do it at the same time there were some kind of understanding that people can sometimes do that what changed easts possibly what you call politicisation of that what changed is possibly what you call politicisation of protests so far as protests were seen as local protests so far as protests were seen as local and based on some concrete grievances like the militia of a building cutting off based on some concrete grievances like demolition of a building cutting down of far they were seen as permissible but the protests of this summer would all know of far they were seen as permissible but the protest of this summer war political in every sense of the world of the work well for me as a political scientist everywhere political in the every sense of the world of the work well for me as a political scientist every pro this is a Political Action because it entails a demand for participation for political process is a Political Action because it entails a demand for participation for political participation but authorities differentiate between well kind of suspicion but authorities differentiate between well kind of. Social or economic courses for protests and political social or economic courses for protests and political there is nothing more political than elections these were about elections there is nothing more political than elections and these were about the elections so i know when we weve seen the sorrow of case the participants were so oh when we weve seen the sorrow of case the participants were not punished off towards the course according to our tradition the worst thing are not punished off towards the course according to our tradition the worst thing that happens is not during the really itself not during the march or something that happens in the during the rally itself not during the march or something but what comes up towards the russian institutions are often criticised but what comes up towards the russian institutions are often criticised for their rather image of nature and function and i personally i was form their rather image of nature and function and i personally see no problem with that i think fake it till you make it is the best strategy for a selfimprovement you know problem or that i think fake it til you make it is the best strategy for a selfimprovement as long as youre faking something youre legitimizing the whole thing as long as youre faking something youre legitimizing the whole thing and im a little bit concerned the russian authorities have starved faking or at least and im a little bit concerned the russian authorities have still faking or at least stop faking authentically the notion that everybody can put stop faking all thumb typically the notion that everybody can participate in politics i understand all the insecurities and you know that there dissipate in politics i understand all the insecurities and you know that their ads. Historic insecurities about political or actually government protest in russia but deep historic insecurities about political or actually government protest in russia but still they have to keep their appearances and all of a sudden they decided not to keep those still they have to keep their appearances and all of a sudden they decided not to keep those appearances anymore why is that well their parents are kept in this appearances anymore why is that well their parents are kept in the sand that whatever happens even if we dislike it and we dislike about what happened down there whatever happens even if we dislike it and we dislike about what happens with the little limits of the law as it is written the law is written in such a way that its with the little limits of the law as it is written the law is written in such a way that it allows great lexar to 2 Law Enforcement so we didnt have the laws great lexa t 2 Law Enforcement so we didnt have any well. The specific her legal regime in moscow for of any well. Specific her legal regime in moscow for example no emergency has been declared so its all according to the written rules for example no emergency has been declared so its all according to the written rules but your writing saying that the prick downs are all of the allowable but your writing saying that the brick downs are off the allowable participation in political life has been see that and at the same time their humor dissipate and then political life has been seated and at the same time their Human Rights Council whose faith were supposed to discuss has also been one of those Rights Council whose faith were supposed to discuss has also been one of those decorated but not useless institutions to that question to ask comes decorated but not useless institutions elad to that question to ask and then. And that ive been asking myself is whether we the Council Members who have been sort the one that theyve been asking myself is whether we the Council Members who have been so active during those hacked sick summer months how weve been aware of that by our active during those hacked sick summer months how weve been aware of that by our activity weve been harming the institution thats what were up to its you weve been harming the institution that we belong to and tarring on its. Should we have been belong to antari on its. Should we have been more quiet in order to keep the council intact or shin more quiet in order to keep the council intact or should we have done what we have done in order to show our position publicly even would we have done what we have done in order to show our position publicly even given the reste of. Well what actually happened now is speaking about even the weeks. Before it actually happened now speaking about your departure from the council alongside some of the other members whove been very clear departure from the council alongside some of the other members whove been very critical about how the moscow protests have been handled not only by the Law Enforcement but also now critical about how the moscow protests have been handled not only by the Law Enforcement but also now by the Russian Court system do you take that as a kneejerk reaction by the Russian Court system do you take that as a kneejerk reaction to you personally just being irritated by a sharp tongue or do you think its a sign of a more sort of into you personally just being irritated by a sharp tongue or do you think its a sign of a more sort of systemic shift. Well it hasnt been just systemic shift. Well it hasnt been just for Council Members that were dismayed at the heart of the council the chairman was for Council Members that were dismayed at the heart of the council the chairman well i mean over there there is a legitimate reason of him reaching the retirement age i mean over there there is a legitimate reason of him reaching the retirement age so you can write it off as something that could have happened but we in you can write it off as something that could have happened but we in your own case its pretty notable that somebody who has served on the council for 10 months is your own case its pretty notable that somebody who has served on the council for 10 months is kicked out because supposedly out of the. Kicked out because supposedly out of the. Necessity thats hard to believe well that has been the way all the explanation and i must say that is thats hard to believe well this has been the way all the explanation and i must say that there have been no private told. With me i must see it open and fair because they have there have been no private talks with me i must see it open and fair because its true and no member of the president ial administration has given me preliminary was its true and no member of the president ial administration has given me a preliminary warning warning that ive been doing something over the top and that i should stop or on warning that ive been doing something over the top and that i should stop or so it was kind of a surprise although it was at the same time kind of x. So it was kind of a surprise although it was at the same time kind of expected we should have been in a more difficult position had they had of the council be back that we should have been in a more difficult position had they had of the council been changed on the composition of the council remained the same because working wouldnt change the composition of the council remain the same because working with the chairman you dont either logically side with is with the chairman whom you dont either logically side with is difficult on one hand the council is a Democratic Institution decisions are made by difficult on one hand the council is a Democratic Institution decisions are made by voting by the majority and we have the will the active part we did have the majority voting by the majority and we have the will the active part we did have the majority we could pass our decisions we could pass the corporations but at this we could pass decisions we could pass the corporations but at the same time the powers of the chair is are many of the same time are the powers of the chair is our main. And for example he alone of all the members of the council has a proper job being an hour and for example he alone of all the members of the council has a proper job being an advisor to the president so he. For example write plateaux sign a letter to the authorities advisor to the president so he can for example write plateau sign a letter to the authorities declaring the councils position not a false could do that and declaring the councils position not all files could do that and generally it would have been an unworkable scheme aflame and so those would have been the generally it would have been an unworkable scheme aflame and so those would have been the your own problems in the you could have dealt with them in the only way i think. Own problems in the you could have dealt with them in the only way i think. Even from a propaganda point of