Infantry company preachment and change inquiry to the next next to the day they open your reckoning. Because its because india has been so everybody at risk because its as soviet style. And face but suspend accounts and it believes face will spur but suspends accounts it believes were russian and different both and i dont descend to both of them innovations come. Off. Just a week off to moscow signs 1000000000. 00 deals with the continent. Plays in the headlines 1000000000. 00 deals with the continent. Well those are the headlines all be back here next hour with another round up and stay with us for so. Ill be back here next hour with another round up and stay with us for next here on international. Hello welcome to vision or. Hello welcome to visionaries im Sophie Shevardnadze hoping fantasizing believing im Sophie Shevardnadze and hoping fantasizing believing all. Natural things for humans. All. Natural things for humans. But can we choose what we believe and why do we believe in the 1st place but can we choose what we believe and why do we believe in it in the 1st place well ask Michael Shermer psychologist Science Writer and founder of well ask Michael Shermer psychologist Science Writer and founder of the skeptic magazine. Michael scherer. Michael shermer welcome to the show its great to have you with us lots to talk about welcome to the show its great to have you with us vox to talk about you know many. Say that all. Say that believing in improbable things. Sickly basically and. Second is the mechanism going isnt that sort of. Modern your nature has provided us with you know to survive be happy in reality which is your half off has provided us with you know to survive be happy in reality which is often dire. Yeah i think thats right in a its a strong word but what i mean by air yeah i think thats right in a its a strong word but what i mean by. Belief speak. Of inside of this is that is that our inclination is to try to understand then the world can have a debate it be that thats whats called whole learning associating less than any learning whether and where its there is like its like class classical can go condition and the like like pavlovs dog or or or or or. At its next it seen what tonight im thinking tino and one other thing are into in the and in the environment are meant to try and i dont understand and cazalet ality. Is going to do it my little experiment is about imagine youre here on a hominid hominid on the plains plains of Africa Africa 3000000 years ago and when youre here russell in the grass is it is it a day to day. Predator or is it or is the wind the wind and it now if you are now if you assume the rustle in the grass is a dangerous predator rather than the grass this is the data generated its just just going to turn is made just just the when youve made a type one or a false positive you thought there was a real connections no connection but no hard type one or a false positive you thought there was a real connections no connection but no harm you know you just kind of went running away but if you think but if you think someone running on the grass is as it does a day is that it is just is just the wind it is winter and its a the dangers out as president or. Your daughter which you are you just. Youve just been munched and taken out of the gene pool so my argument is that we have much to and to get out of the gene. Well so my argument is that we evolve the capacity to assume that all rustles in the grass are dangerous predators instead of just all the capacity to assume that all rustles in the grass are dangerous predators instead of just the wind and therefore we tend to believe things that are not trying to win and therefore we tend to believe things that are not true just in case because some of them are true and therefore believing were through just in case because some of them are true and therefore believing weird things by the way its called superstition or magical thinking believing weird things like that things by the way its called superstition or magical thinking believing weird things like that is not a bug in the system its a feature that comes equipped is not a bug in the system its a feature that comes equipped in the software of our programming to try to connect things in the environment in the software of our programming to try to connect things in the environment just in case theres a real case for action is there a connection right so. I say right so. Youre saying believe you start are almost trained by coming on and the sentence just just looks like a writing bait house helps to harness an emotional horse but this horse well you know its just to harness an emotional horse but this horse well you know it still go where i am or if it once are you saying that our emotional self will go where i am or if it once are you saying that our emotional self will always take over that rational one yes well we are both rational always take over that rational one yes well we are both rational and emotional that is reason is a tool that we used to know and emotional that is reason. Is a tool that we use to try to understand how the world works emotions are also kind of a tool to try to understand how the world works emotions are also kind of a tool its a way of reasoning very quickly so evolution designed our will its a way of reasoning very quickly so evolution designed our emotions to drive us to do things so you dont have to calculate how many calories. To drive us to do things so you dont have to calculate how many calories your body needs it in a given day you just feel hungry so that a memory is your body needs it in a given day you just feel hungry so that emotion of hunger drives you to eat something and then when youre satisfied youve had enough motion of hunger drives you to eat something and then when youre satisfied youve had enough you no longer have that feeling or the desire to be attracted to somebody else this is an evolved no longer have that feeling or the desire to be attracted to somebody else this is an evolved trait that helps the speech trays but that. Speed. You have sex and have children and so on and so on but no one. Why that. That is. The practice to somebody else you know the waist to hip ratio or the waist said hip or the stuff they might face to their face to the complexion of the of the cave skin no one does those calculations you just just feel you did this into some somebodys body so its and then that sentence this thing motions like. Her and jealousy see and and. You know those you know the hearts of those things are to the things that theyre a what a way of reasoning about them at the world very very quickly to see this colorado happen could cognition she does. You know to no sense about a sentence about something that were pretty were pretty good about about this with this with people people for example. If you have a sense like this person i dont have a good feeling about him i dont trust him i dont know what if you have a sense like this person i dont have a good feeling about him i dont trust him i dont know what it is i did this so i feel right about here or the situation youre writing about. Or the situation youre in those are usually pretty pretty accurate. Is that what we have to believe is that we could see him not its not like but its not its not psychic power its its the way hes in a very its a rapid whately about the virus and if youre picking things up from the ground up with lee about the environment youre picking things up from the from the environment you dont know what they are i dont know what there is but its just a feeling you get in that sense from the environment you dont know what they are i dont know what there is but its just a feeling you get and thats actually a good trait that we have well ok let me take this good trait that we have well ok let me take this a little step further lets talk about whats real or not and the a little step further lets not about whats real or not at the end of the day what we do decipher is real right because many we now know the day what we do decipher is real right because many we now know and says to physicists. After ive talked. To. He said he has a set she says she suggested yes interesting that everyone everywhere is saying to say that we think that wind is we think were in kill is great and id. Be. What do you think yeah i dont think thats correct. When you think. Yeah i i dont think thats correct at the level that which which we live in adequate the physiological level that which at which we live that is the macro physical world world filled with what mitch michio is always tough talking about theyre out there. Trying to think thats what the physicists that study quantum physics for example theyre talking about the sub stuff like quite hard to explain for example theyre talking about the subatomic particle and this is a very different and then whats the world very different world. Out of out of bounds if you have it like a few tennis balls like a tennis ball here is the nucleus of the atom and the electrons going around it sort of the here is the nucleus of the atom and the electrons going around it sort of the Energy Shield or a field of the electrons going around it these would be like blocks away Energy Shield or a field of the electrons going around it these would be like blocks away from the little tennis ball here its mostly empty space the atom is most state from the little tennis ball here its mostly empty space the atom is mostly empty space so thats why people new age group talk about empty space so thats why people new age group talk about you know this chair is completely empty or or this is really empty space yeah but not at the macro let you know this chair is completely empty or or this is really empty space yeah but not at the macro level at the macro level the atoms are so tightly bound that essentially this chair that im sitting in is novel at the macro level the empty spot arms are say so tightly and bounce its own so all of that is intentionally this chip thats why air they dont fall through it and im sitting in is not empty space its a solid thing thats why i dont fall through it. And. It didnt and here have a little accident in here so that at the met macro level of all. Its its not its not an illusion what we see and feel out of. Accurate. Portrait what we see and feel is a fairly accurate portrait of rid of reality that now there are some that are that are are you said this prop say this problem of love that lets i have to be better at it like like i cant i dont know what it would be a bad life like this i dont even have that site because i dont have sonar this echolocation i want to insist that are this image so that. Meant to pick up the big. Sound bouncing up. And exists in the brain an apparatus to process the process announce that information and from it haitian and so on i can know what its like to be a bad back cant know what its like to be me and so what and so on i can know what its like to be a bad a bad cant know what its like to be me and so whatever lets say a thing in the environment looks like to a bat it probably never lets say a thing in the environment looks like to a bat it probably doesnt look like that to me we probably have very different images of what the world looks like doesnt look like that to me we probably have very different images of what the world looks like but theyre still really is say a wall here and if the bat is flying toward it its going to move but theyre still really is say a wall here and if the bat is flying toward it its going to move around the wall and i see the wall or i feel the wall the bat heres the wall over around the wall and i see the wall or i feel the wall the bat heres the wall. The sensory apparatus read this is different than the neural strettle structure a process of seeing the scene in 3 inches from entering the station is different from the difference between meeting me in the back in the bat but there really but there was a really all star what theyre really colorful things theyre really we have after things that we have to navigate around in the world so that part is not an illusion thats reality so i navigate around in the world so that part is not an illusion thats reality so i argue that we evolved senses that give us a fairly accurate way argue that we evolved senses that give us a fairly accurate portrait of what the world is really like and in the best tool we have for understanding or truth of what the world is really like and in the best tool we have for understanding that world is science because subjective world will see you and i and im made because he was brought on similar activity or you are and im a be wronger or or disorder or disorders or there are are there are in our or. Suffering from johns but to collect opportunity probably will be susans but collectively we can get an accurate picture of the world so well what about creativity get an accurate picture of the world so well what about creativity how dast creativity of fact our ability to believe in things how dast creativity of fact our ability to believe in things does that mean that the richer imagination we have the more likely we are to believe does that mean that the richer imagination we have the more likely we are to believe were at stuff or not necessarily i think theres a really share too in this the self in the already im not necessarily. I think theres a relationship between this in the believing brain and i. I mean with the idea. That the they have this read their piece which we ship between say madness and creativity or that that people are they who are very open to new ideas they can they make connections across disciplines or newfie of this in creativity or that that people are they who are very open to new ideas they can they make connections across disciplines or new fields that you and i maybe wouldnt make but that theyre so open to new ideas that you and i maybe wouldnt make but that theyre so open to new ideas they also believe a lot of wacky ideas so for example i know a lot of really she is they also believe a lot of wacky ideas so for example i know a lot of really smart people nobel Prize Winners and so on they believe the weirdest things like what and part i some are people nobel Prize Winners and so on they believe the weirdest things like what and part i sometimes wonder. Oh that like 911. 00 was a times wonder. Oh that like 911 was a conspiracy or that astrology works or that e. S. P. Conspirators will just work. These kinds of things that most scientists and skeptics are skeptical they think there might be something to this talk and scientists and skeptics are skeptical they think there might be something to this talk in the bill to believe in brain and brought out about a much smaller one the most noble well problem that i know but for his eyes work can wear is a work that can make the p. C. R. Or the technique of of take you know a little you know a little snippet of d. N. A. And then reproducing that its a very common technique reproducing but its a very mulberry cause super interesting. Kary mullis see. Interesting super smart creative guy he he drove drunk he drinks ramped up to this is. This one for which he won the nobel prize well. For 15 what it was and. I mean just kind of. Odd and just kind of having a creative moment out in nature you know. Like you and i are not going to have that kind of spirit of moment out in nature you know. Like you and i are not going to have that kind of experience all right or einstein has this dream of flying on a beam of luxury and so right or einstein has this dream of flying on a beam of light yeah whoa ok i dont have dreams like that but but yeah whoa ok i dont have dreams like that but but that kind of openness and creativity might lead you to think well all these other thing kind of openness and creativity might lead you to think well all these other things are real not all of them are real sometimes the Creative Ideas you come up with are real not all of them are real sometimes the Creative Ideas you come up with are just theyre just great crazy theyre theyre crackerjack theyre not real and so are just theyre just great crazy theyre crackerjack theyre not real and so the rub here is to have a mind open enough to accept rather the rub here is to have a mind open enough to accept radical new Creative Ideas that no one else has thought of that turn out to be right but not suckle new Creative Ideas that no one else has thought of that turn out to be right but not so open minded that you believe every wacky idea that comes down the pike and so you know when people who open minded that you believe every wacky idea that comes down the pike and so you know when people say well you know they laughed at they laughed at galileo they laughed at the Wright Brothers you know its like saying well you know they laughed at they laughed at galileo they allowed. At the Wright Brothers you know its like well they laughed at the Marx Brothers being laughed at does it mean youre right so for every galileo well they laughed at the Marx Brothers being laughed at does that mean youre right so for every galileo. Theres 10000 other scientists who had creative new ideas and they. Theres 10000 other scientists who had creative new ideas and they were wrong and i encountered these people all the time they send me they send me their letters every were wrong and i encounter these people all the time they send me they send me their letters every week of new theories that they have most of which are completely incomprehensible so its new theories that they have most of which are completely and comprehensible so its not that being creative and having a new idea means youre right and you should win the nobel prize its not that being creative and having a new idea means youre right and you should win the nobel prize most new ideas. But even in society its even been provided fed professionals and into the. Right are not right so so so so so to do so one final point just. One final point. Because this is you can you perhaps sign up to science and just recently and its really an asterisk you think i want to ask because i hurt the idea that pseudo Scientific Research usually precede scientific idea that pseudo Scientific Research usually precede scientific revolution revolution and people will try to. Pin this on existence and pick up something in the world exists and picture of the world and. Then will to. You and i and to research a search. Leads to the socalled paradigm shift do you think that we are actually on the verge of another scientific old paradigm shift do you think that we are actually on the verge of another. S