Minority rights the problem is that in the western balkans. After 2000. And especially over the past the 78 or 10 years we have of the climb better visible decline in all of these crew so the market is not functioning efficiently according to. The competitive gritty of you know we have democratic decline very visible democracy decline. We have not always but we have problems with protection of minorities. In some places or at least some kind of problem with between majority and minority but the major problem is the will of law we simply not only serbia but everywhere in the western balkans have a judiciary and Public Prosecutors which are under the heavy influence of politicians now i know that you specifically identify state capture that is the misuse of state funds for private and political benefit as the main obstacle to your europeanization but i would say that this kind of france seeking and selfserving behavior could be found within the court itself in countries like cyprus or italy do you think youre of the old to your has itself leaned up to the standards of the europeanization that it tries to hold others to you could also have mentioned the paul or. Hungary right over the past several years right the problem with the origin of the problem is that the European Union the is not able to solve this problem within utopian you know with these crimes because hungary Czech Republic paul and are the members of the European Union right now and you. Capture there are you also. The theater nation of other very important to have established member theyre not able to solve this there of course then they are not able to solve this in the west and baucus when this is running much much. Larger scale. The in this country its always been a bit counter to many observers that former soviet satellites like bulgaria romania poland became members of the European Union before the constituent parts of former and on the line yugoslavia having looked at how those various countries measure against the e. U. Yardsticks are you sure that its always been a function of jaynie and democratic or Economic Development rather than lets say geo political expediency i would say that is one of the geopolitics in this process and of course the European Union wants to bring to take in these countries become some kind of shields. Other other countries especially russia maybe some some other countries but i think the. In 1809 when the berlin wall came down i think that the during the night these and even after 2000 the majority the prevalent mood in discounted is was that they want to join european. Paul and sort of example when this goes without saying just like paul right so they wanted to join European Union more than anything else because they want to solve some kind of protection from russia this is all that matters right that would be about the countries wanting to join i mean obviously much of Eastern Europe and that i wanted to join not only because of the quality of Democratic Institutions but i assume also because of the quality of life and economic benefits but speaking about poland you mentioned that there has been a deterioration in democratic progress across eastern until within 5 Cross Western europe lately and. You know the popular narrative in the west is that in countries where russia is present thats understandable because russia is supporting autocratic tendencies etc but poland is very notable. Example contrary to die theory because its been staunchly and to russian for a number of years and yet as we all know theres been a backsliding on democracy how do you explain it and isnt it perhaps isnt it perhaps an indication that the way people thought about democratization. 20 years ago is not accurate its far more complex and perhaps violence lay near than i would say i would explain the polish case very similar to the one gettin case and some cases in the western balkans all has to do with the way how the countries were democrats and what happened with the distribution of resources basic resources i think that in in polish case and other cases i mention the 1st couple of decades some of them. Improving of material wealth or whatever it is im but the genuinely these these people they saw the whole process unjust or unsafe there is a polish origin political scientists. Who mention this in 1000 night they won so even the process of democratization europeanization is not fair so that everybody stand to benefit dogs who are the losers they will get back and they will the strike back so i think this is whats happening in poland this is whats happened whats happening im going to this whats happening in serbia and some western balkan countries so i have selfawareness and germany and these are your money doria thats right so and now there comes the opinion you and the enlargement process this self i think that the european officials dont really recognize that so they dont they support i mean when it comes to the balkan countries they support the balkan out of credits they simply pay no attention to whats happening today and i think this is what is genuinely putting the whole thing in danger let me just mention one thing for example in a couple of years back in serbia. Group of masked people tore down several factors of houses and buildings in the downtown of belgrade. 3 years on we have no idea what happened who did that the Public Prosecutor is not saying anything and the European Union is not saying dont do such or. Such or huge violation of the rule of law now this is the most interesting part that this could have never been told that the german in berlin this could have never been tolerated yes european officials mentioned this at no point while at this point here are not officially a member of the european every night they have an excuse of not interfering in into their fares all obey that they can into the theater because there are certain chapters which set certain standards that the aspiring countries has to fulfill and those shouts of 22242324 its long been believed that the enlargement policy at has dual objectives democratizing Eastern European countries as well as fulfilling the e. U. Foreign policy agenda one element of which is to keep russia at bay to keep its influence minimized and yet i get it from your writing that it its not always working as intended and sometimes they say and to russians trick is actually contributing to the rise of autocratic leaders and these toleration of the lack of the rule of law that you mention how does it work so in some confidence you will find the other objective about have an icon to the democrat ties and then at the same time be. Serving as a shield against russia is work for sample taken for example montenegro despite very massive population support Popular Support for russia to need to be an leader to somehow manage to get the government and you go into nato and you know induction of all democratic way are right but it doesnt really have to work so supporting out the krauts in the ball. Once kudos. Ends the way you did in one thing you dont so it will become one day part of the European Union needs all of the part of nato but it would be it could end up in a different way so one of some of these countries could go closer to russia so serbia is run of this country which is neither here nor there in the foreseeable future it will surely never become part of nato but will go closer to russia we dont know that Public Service cause a part of. The same thing is on the other north mustard on the under the rule of nikola whoever skit was doing the same thing so and he was heavily supported by the european official i mean one of the foreign minister was even coming to his electoral rally a couple of days before the elections to give him pats on the back and they give him up a european supporter do i understand you correctly because i mean they they can pickle a european narrative has that mosque a supporting autocrats because they are more amenable to. The kremlin from the herion a. Essentially saying that brussels is guilty of the same charge that it supports leaders with finds more amenable or easier to deal with that it is for stability or for geopolitical purposes i would say its maybe not in this war but i would say if we see in the future that some balkan countries are driving away from european these asian union then going closer to russia one part of the responsibility will be with utopian the solutions and so the whole process of a large meant i think have to be rethought if you will especially when it comes to its applicability how you are ply all these standards are you consistent double standards maybe somewhere thats i think what should be rethought 3rd as you mentioned is an interesting example because it tries to strike a balance between the e. U. And russia and there are multiple at. Ization that president which is has been is european power controlling of the media etc but he also appointed the 1st openly gay Prime Minister which is a major progressive milestone for this country is serbia indeed more european that is then it used to be is it being europeanized or is it just trying to look at a part you know. Prime minister who is openly gay but thats will say i mean they could terms of. Promoting European Values because the major thing states capture extraction of publicly sources from private ben and this is whats going on right now even a gay Prime Minister is not really putting be seen then ger the political elite these 5 with and with many other things right as as long as extraction is untouched the state capture is untouched everything is acceptable and even the European Union is acceptable at the moment in this i think that the major thing that european officials have to understand the moment european officials seriously questions about extraction about state capture in the west and balk as they will get in the conflicts in serious conflict with the latest well professor polish we have to take a short break well be back in just a few moments. What explains the bipartisan commitment to understanding wars in Foreign Military interventions recent polls show the majority of veterans who fought in this centurys foreign wars say it wasnt worth it in 2016. From game traction for doubting foreign adventures to day told see god were just doing the same why are the elites someone to. Be always still got us into a tirade in d. C. Thats who could sneak. Over there cook a description of the new you. Could want to think about getting out of your canadian each room until were all going to miss all. The eat too much haha good to be out its all you can find on the author to get those people to fail when im in the good children tell them with all this you can tie one next time you dont come fall through the market within you know. Most people think just stand out in this business you need to be the 1st one on top of the story or the person with the loudest voice of the biggest raid in truth to stand out of the lose business you just need as the right questions and demand the right answer. Question. Welcome back to worlds apart in addition publication associate professor difficulty of Political Science at the university of belgrade professor before the break we talked about how the large one is perceived outside the e. U. Lets now discuss about how its seen on the inside im sure youve seen this latest interview d in the economist magazine the french president a man gave and he firmly stated that there would be no further e. U. Enlargement until the membership procedures are formed do you take that as just photo sharing which is not entirely foreign to mishear micron or do you think its a wider shot as far as the e. U. Neighborhood policies concerned i think that the. French president actually expressed the idea which is pretty consistent with what weve been talking in the 1st part of the interview and this is that everybody sees that something is going wrong with the process of course what part of the problem is not only is not happening in the western balkans but part of the problem is in European Union itself because the union is undergoing pretty huge. Changes and i think that some things that he mentioned in this interview holds for a total revision of the whole approach to European Union rights for example one thing that i think is very important is that there is that there was a huge change in the us and the us was a country which basically security. For European Union right now this country is now changing mr trump wins yet another term this is 4 years of this change that will be applied and everybody will feel the consequences not this. Calls for reform of the of the position of the European Union in the world right now you have on your borders countries like russia you have chinese or somebody there is terry k. 30 war in syria this is war ready close your door maybe we should think about already organisation a Security System and if we do this what kind of position the western balkans country should be. Going to understand well what i think if it was not only about the western balkans per se i mean he was speaking about that and the larger context accepting new members and we all know that he wasnt just you know putting ideas on the table france is actually blocking membership talks for any and north of the cydonia it has come up with its own system 7 step system of i think they call it a gradual association not even accession do you think there is any chance of that system being accepted by are they are people countries given that they all call statements a historic mistake do they have a choice not to i think its going to some version of this will be accepted because its a very nice way to have a cake and eat it still read so they know without saying no he will say ok we are continuing our on our path of integrating more confidence but essential is going to be a prolonged or a long long way until we reach the 7 step right there with my beasts several decades right you could see immediately after they explicitly say as the european officials explicitly said no to the north macedonians in the binya what kind of problem it cause i mean so pretty basic diplomatic rule is dont say no explicitly just to put it in some kind of. Very nice wording good that ever. But you want something in that same interview president across the thinking about the e. U. Neighborhood policy in terms of access to the e. U. Was quote absurd what else could the European Union offer a to this neighborhood if its not very remold. Prospect of joining them what else. You know i dont think that. There is anything else but some kind of hope of the song or a way that these countries will become you members if this is of the mood of the table i think that we can forget about any kind of neighboring policy so. Countries here want to call part of the media in the western balkans want to cooperate with them because there is some kind of. In the end of the tunnel theres a light that the light is not very d material i mean like you cannot feed of their life you cannot deny them to live i mean given the what you talk about extraction state extraction i mean from the point of view of relief thats. Im just going back to my previous thought so you have to give them some kind of hope and then you will have them as somebody who will cooperate with you if you shut this down this channel down and say look we are not you are not going to be members in any foreseeable future but lets try to be neighbors i dont think this would really help the plans that European Union has for itself because as i said wanted to argue the current. E. U. Enlargement process is actually doing. Some very thing itself so the interest that the European Union has on the balkans is actually working on the long ground against European Union now the reason i ask you that question was because while the prospect of enlargement in practical terms is very slim many european officials are still talking about this range and in very possessive terms for example the incoming president of the European Commission their sole of one that i said just the other day that if the e. U. Fails to offer a european perspective to the western balkans then others and she named china russia turkey and even saudi arabia will fill the gap do you think that you can still. Count on exclusivity or if you will monogamy on the head of the countries in this region i think is unfair to ask for that no i think it is but thats what im on no must go on wanted to express so we have to rethink the whole thing that i think that he didnt say anything more than that and this is very true if dupion noonan pulls itself out of this area or somebody else will come and theyll get it doesnt have to be either or why couldnt it be you know chinas influence influence here helping to build a railroad russian influence or russian presence here helping to by the 3rd been inviting european influence here helping to strengthen the institutions i mean this is how you would normally think about International Cooperation and yet when it comes to the western balkans its either you belong to me or you belong to them i would say that the countries and people function as family so there is a european family there is about the within european family knows about the family they somehow feel some sort of want to your father your mother right there when there isnt a certain age when you can move out of here house and get married then to have your own children and well thats what i would always held. Sort of my kids and my parents the kids and pet as i dont know by that absolutely but it doesnt mean that you absolutely should be held hostage to them and you have no rights you engage with them i dont think that anybody is held hostage the preowned is that in the western balkans we have a discussion on going discussion for 30 years whether we are europeans are not humble in serbia this is very very hard to debate and