As it deals with migrants and refugees do you see that impacting your work in any way yeah it is of course i mean in general the no borders is to say we are we think that we should not lets say only go where we allow to go but we also should try to fight for access to the people because its where they meet they deserve its a human right also if you be taken care off and especially in conflict situations where there is no support when the Health Systems are failing then of course there is a lot of need and its own mission somehow to go and it was if used to be i think 20 years ago it used to be a very popular notion both among the public and among the Decision Makers especially in europe i mean europe was moving to. A World Without borders but clearly its not the case anymore. People in europe actually want to bring borders back in much greater matter than before well as a matter of fact we are we are seeing already we have a big border around europe no its not amongst the different individual states so much its on the outskirts of the european system and we see particularly the lets say most deadliest border in the world is emitted and youd see thousands and thousands of people have been dying over the last couple of years due to not being rescued in the sea and this is of course ever growing concern for us because we are actively hampered also access to these places even though we have to the means we have the boats we have the capacities to medically care for these people but they try to prevent us from doing i would joke now youve been very diplomatic so far in expressing your concern and i know that you a person on your organization have been very critical of the way the European Union is dealing with this issue where theyve altimetry abandoning all their rescue operations in the Mediterranean Sea do you think there is a way of dealing with this issue him mainly without at the same time encouraging further migration well i think the myth somehow around it that we are encouraging by just hoping people in the. Risky situation is absolutely wrong because there have been several lets say studies who proved it completely wrong that it didnt have to happen according to being available on the sea but people were going its just the pure need and if you take libya as of course one of the departing areas and maybe planting area in the central Mediterranean Sea you see that people they dont have any way to go elsewhere so they have to go through the sea and if you dont rescue them in these situations a lot of people have died but im sure you know that there are people crossing through only bad ill just lay bands and then all just people fleeing from war persecution there 1200000000 of People Living in africa many of them in abject poverty and im sure not many of them where would be able to make that crossing but many. Would like to do that thing i mean its. I think its ultimately a question of about borders but about the limits do you think the humanitarian responsibility has to be balanced against other considerations economic social political and others i think we have to be very careful not to judge too much numbers because as a matter of fact if you take for instance now the situation we have a very limited of moment of people who are even trying to cross and if we leave these people dying because of political reasons and theres no other reason to say it is just for political interests that people are drowning in the Mediterranean Sea we have the capacity to doing something we can save all of them and were just not doing it so its just. Negligence of humans tiring and you main responsibility if you just look around you see that we have a very serious issue around Climate Change for instance more and more people cannot sustain their living anymore theyre moving but usually people are moving in the regions from where the originate so there is very limited amount of people who anyway go through. Lets say the european. Brought us let me play devils advocate because i mean as a doctor you have to think not only about you know treating a person in the moment you have to think about how what youre doing right now will affect his body in a way or a year from now politicians and Decision Makers have to think about those things as well dont they and they have to take Political Considerations in mind and you know that they migrate migratory issue is a Major Political issue in europe arent you concerned that if europe does whats right by you it may actually empower forces and parties that even are even more antithetical to the kind of humanitarianism that you champion. No i think actually what were trying to do is defend what we call the humanitarian space so the area where we can still work without any political consideration just based on the human needs of the people so alleviating suffering and trying to prevent people from dying its a very simple thing were doing but its very complicated and a lot of people dont like it because of Political Considerations but for me as a doctor its a very clear statement im here to safe peoples lives i dont care who it is and why he is in this position he is now if you should buy a gun i dont care whos gun that was but i have to care for this and this is a specific responsibility of a doctor you to care all for that but the politicians operate in a different environment and they do you have to think about the number of people they can help and dont share expect that kind of forward thinking from the Decision Makers i think if youre we have basic values and we should try to defend them as much as part in our if you dont you know rights and if it if youre toward human rights then we have to be very serious about it we have to defend human rights because theyre at stake at this very moment we have to defend humanitarianism as such we have to defend the International Humanitarian law and we have to defend humanity so if you talk about well if we are talking potentially about 1200000000 of people whole are even you know the half of that who would want to move to the european continent i dont very much that so many people want to leave a lot of people are going to be pushed all the places where theyre leaving but usually if you just look at it theyre staying in the regions where they know how to survive somehow and where they have some kind of connections so very few people are actually making it this far and we also have to consider them one of the reasons so if you talk about long term lets Say Solutions then we have to find ways that people are having a decent life that they can have a life in dignity and also sustain their family life pleasant. Expense or Something Like that will take decades to bring about and its a question of whether you can actually do that i mean there are there and there has been a lot of talk in the European Union in investing in those areas too or indeed stemmed the flow often ill make migrants but. So far the e. U. Hasnt done that much that merrick and are not doing that as well. Do you think there will ever be enough resources enough political will to invest in africa to such an extent as you are advocating you know it is it is a big question i mean we are living in a very unfair world mom percent of the worlds population has as much welts accumulated as the other 1009 percent of those who are now is this going to change im not sure i have no idea of my personal idea about it but as an organization we are trying to defend just what we think is the right thing so that means in the 1st place make sure that people are not suffering according to political decisions that they are not suffering according to conflicts and but we can just prevent them from dying its implicit now i know that you personally took part in the rescue missions and the mediterranean and a your house set up an organization that was dealing with it in a. Social or personal capacity and the question i have for you do you think ordinary people can still make and that often impact when that governments are not collaborating or i think in your case when theyre creating deliberately creating legal hurdles as an individual i think very much i have to do what i think is right i have different to different my values if to different my principles and if i feel the state is not doing it to quoting to what i think is the right thing then have to stand up and say. Its not good enough and as a medic of course i have to say well if you dont respect medical ethics and i have to also stand up and if as a humanitarian feel that the next to me is not respected and treated in the dignified way then i have to also stand in this regard so yes we have to do it despite that it is may be a very long term fight and we are not necessarily winning it always while not only in the training but i think a number of states are creating. Deliberate obstacles in a way of here doing that correct me if im wrong but i think that wessel that you used to operate is now. Detained or arrested the in italy you had to change your flag jurisdiction a from the netherlands to germany because the netherlands didnt really want to do anything with you why do you think the resistance to what youre trying to do is so broad based because if it was just you know italy on waltz and people would understand i mean politically they would understand why that would be the reason but then that alliance i mean yeah it is because there is a kind of push. Towards lets say disrespect of. Human rights and the values we are usually defending so in this regard its not only an issue of italy its not only an issue of Turkey Greece who ever youre talking about its an european issue as such the netherlands are part of this consorts and somehow and they make it very very difficult for seawitch in this case to maintain its flag and the end of the shift to german flag is maybe a right move so that we can as this German Organization see which can maybe address the responsibility rather to the government they have very close to is going to make a big difference who knows we dont know but there was no possibility to maintain the flag and we also have to say other states are on the. The impression some of the populist movement is very strong and this is why we have to fight back and try to really stand up for the human values but even when you had an ability to operate here shepherd here is still had to play this cat and mouse game with the authorities because many countries for refusing entry and even the when they were allowing it was always as a kind of exception rather than a policy this crisis is almost 5 years old why do you think the ear still hasnt come up with a policy i mean whatever it is it would be a conservative policy but why do you think its still. Being dealt on and one off basis i think as i said before there is the right Wing Populist Movement who is trying to also be very vocal and so it is on the political side people are trying to take all these lets say possible voters into account and on the other hand we also see that in the Eastern European part its not very well lets say accepted that they also have to take a certain share of this supposed burden so from our perspective it is a political crisis rather than a migration crisis of course but theyre not havent been able yet to sort of the political issues they think they will ever will come up with a policy for the. I have no idea but we are definitely not going to give it up even if they make it more difficult we are not accepting that people are drawing only because of political interests and we are going to fight as much as we can ok about frank we have to check and verify break for you now but they will be back in just a few moments. But there was only johnson. And i just got out of prison for like. 41 guinness. 72 years old now i got arrested for a tomato for something to. Fill you know im like this everything is taken out of. My work and. I think this was a. Government decision on man that looks a little bit like me. I would rather call about. Homicide want to come. Now. Were tough you. Do not so powerless so youre going. To go. To numb afraid to try to frighten if you smoke you. Know do something right due to. What the next world apart with frank turner a board member of doctor spit out a friend just before the break we were talking about libya that used to be. Not so long ago. A relatively prosperous country a very friendly country towards migrants which. Almost over time was strange into one big slave market and i know the humanitarian workers dont live to talk about politics but since you already have expressed your criticism of the e. U. Policy i wonder why we almost never hear from organizations all from people like yourself any criticism of what Barack Obama DavidCameron Nicolas sarkozy and others did to libya because. Nobody really talks about the the core issue here that country for all its deficiencies used to be. A relatively ok country and that problem that we are discussing right now didnt exist to such an extent why do we never address the the core issue that created all that suffering well as a matter of fact its not our business but we are a year and 3 of very clear we we are in all the conflicts where we are working all the areas we are working we have we taking a neutral position if you want to address lets say political issues you can do it only where you are not risking it on the political issue and insurance are obama is not in power anymore he is a former president s wife cant just his say that what he did to leave here was a crime it wasnt private because its not our lets say expertise its not the humanitarians who have to say what the reasons were for a conflict situation and what were just there in because there is a political. Crisis at this very moment but its nothing to do with the policies behind you ever address the needs of the people if they are multiplied to such an extent because we live in a world that has the historically highest number of refugees and people in need can you ever how them all of them as a doctor if you dont address the political issues that are of decor all of the problem and if theyre not given political at this point theyre historic you need to understand why decisions are good and what decisions are not good in terms of multiplying all limiting human suffering youre right if you take it from the. General analyzed and a little point of view but what were doing is just trying to be there when crisis are happening so were not looking at the causes of the crisis in the 1st place but of the consequences so we try to really be there as doc just to make sure that people are not suffering too much and where we can save lives we want to save lives im a bit biased im sure i am but i think that a reluctance to. Size was a little bit less pronounced in the case of other governments im specifically talking about the Syrian Government and the russian government as they were operating in syria and i have a question specifically on Doctors Without Borders policy there because they are going to zation made a decision not to disclose its location its in a rabble how terrorists medical facilities and yet at the same time it did allow itself to criticize those governments for supposedly deliberately targeting medical facilities do you think thats a fair or even consistent position well in general we have to be clear we see that over the past years more and more programs are cured due to the disrespect of International Human turning law which they do but in the situation of warfare in the situation of conflict those who are really trying to support of the victims of this situation need to be protected and the opposite is happening at this very moment its in yemen a situation thats if we saw this in so sudan in iraq we saw this in several places around the world and this is a big concern for us in syria toughened as well so to this extent its understandable that at some point where usually you think that protection will happen because Everybody Knows where you work and may become really a problem because also if youre targeted then the population may not show up any more despite the medical needs the Geneva Conventions apply noncombatants to release the locations of medical facilities there only considered to be medical facilities if the combatants know where they are in such a context and especially in the syrian context im sure you know that there was nothing sacred there nothing aflame and any pretext especially a humanitarian projects was used to malign the opponent in such a context dont you think that your organization had an obligation to your staff and to the rest of the worlds to play by the rules. By the rules in this case i mean the Geneva Conventions that put an obligation on the to disclose this facilities specifically it to protect the people and the doctor as well as i said the our experience with the opus its usually what happened in a lot of these places were that there was deliberate targeting of the facilities as such whatever was behind that used obviously the knowledge about the Health Facilities to somehow attack the big 6 services of people to create fear to bring need to create really suffering of the populations and that is something we of course also have to put into on the scale and in this regard. Yes youre right we are playing to the Geneva Conventions we often are referring to them and we are also referring to International Humans arent law but when it starts to really become an issue of security of all patients and own stuff then you have to make certain considerations do your job that that security wasnt sure the because even without disclosing the locations of your medical facilities and rebel held areas they were attacked they were the doctors and patients kilkenny at that and blame the belligerence for targeting you deliberately because you obviously didnt let them know where where they should not strike well in general i