Transcripts For RT Going Underground 20240713

Minister no was elected democratically and so with all our members with that we recently went through the west new selection where 7 of our m. P. s were returned again so i think in order for a clearly a Democratic Organization well im now joined by the author of the book fathers by my life as an m i 5 agent it slides in frame with a column willy welcome to going underground how come youre still alive and why is the book called thatcher spy. Its going to strange but i think im a very lucky person. Its one of those things that you know when youve been where ive been and you get taken notes and you know youve had a lucky escape as time goes on you miss the adrenaline because we lived on around i lived around but i suppose the reason im a lady is i still practice. You know drive in around about 3 times and go back the way i came or walking down the street. And look another sit in the one to one im really looking across the street to see is behind me and fatuous but. I dont know where i got the. The name from i think was because there was i work in as a soldier undercover and you know i dont really believe or think that i was out in portland and then when i was take a note of terry and within 4 days im on mrs tices yet leave in belfast to condi london and my family is you know my wife and my 2 sons and my daughter i think its great. And im just sitting there thinking you know this was plain to conjure this way we use so stupid im going to get at that and the shadowy m i 5 s is like the f. R. U. In a 2nd lets go back a bit and go back to how you became a spike as he left the army. And some ago Alan Reece Morgan said he has wanted you to go home and spy on your neighbors and friends put you in place before Harold Wilson is elected yes and why would you join the British Colonial power that was responsible of as you say in the book they ran the are you see in particular raided your own mothers house well youre a catholic when i when i when i grew up on the craig in the state and there was no work for young men like me. Your name for example was seen to it and the school you went to did you didnt get a deal because the protestants run the system in the north. So it was unusual for a young man of my age to join the army because our fathers have been in the army me im i was born in 1040 its on a war p. C. And when i got to my regiment i discovered there were 25. 00 young navy spend the same as me whod left fail fast and buried to join the british army so that was an unusual ok it will be easy it isnt unusual maybe on in derry around 177 the republicans the entier what you call an anti capitalist phase tell me about you witnessing that because. You dont seem to support their anticapitalist phases around the time the ira killed jeffrey i gate of du pont du pont of course in from as for supplying agent orange vietnam which killed a thing a war that killed 4000000 somebody made the decision some where the thumb people time the normal as our society in north with big factories and lots of jobs was the wrong way to go on i remember really well been at home one night on a knock came to the door and my neighbor said to me this young guy here looking for your sister. And i think is the trouble so we brought him and we looked after him as it turned out that she was one of the people that was involved in the murder of geoffrey i get. I mean even his murder caused mayhem all the across america when when president carter even said he knew it was a disgrace. Dewpoint was a pentagon they plug supplier so shortly after you met Martin Mcguinness you notice gerry adams is trying to promote him politically trying to get him away from the Armed Struggle tell me about. And then surely it was very in those with a cause Martin Martin was it was o. C. Of Northern Command at the time. And we were we have records on the sort of like the tracks on the one hand shane finn was developing epis and it was in baby stage you do we were paper sellers we collected money for the prisoners dependent on reserve. You know all the fighting us is that. But it became noticeable after a while that gerry adams seemed to have this force 8 of want to take the movement down a different route. Not necessarily to the peach route the turner road where they could get some traction out of the British Government and. Indeed to get martin on board with it martin again as a long Journey Towards peace will never happen just so back then youre talking with these high powered people in the Republican Movement and theyre what youre flying over to london and meeting Stella Rimington at a hotel in west london alan raised morgan introduced her to me as more as i like very knowledgeable politics music of the tell me that keith wont last for votes and will be on again i mean you see. The f. R. U. Which im trying to get you the 1st loosely allied to the s. A. s of it the guy who ran it was going to gordon car of the as a yes but gee did you get the feeling that this colonel that alone silly rimington they were politically against wilson against the left knowing to know. All i knew was that somewhere in the background behind the body politic there was a movement or a group of people who seem to think. This could lead to deification of ireland but we need to get these guys on board they need to be politics before we can deal with them. Because if we try to say a lot to the politicians theyll say theyre terrorists we cant deal with them its just its difficult to explain. Its as if there were people behind the scenes who really wanted the unification of ireland and they seen this as an opportunity within the intelligence of absolutely absolutely im pretty sure they were denied because they then go on the record i think equally unbelievable arguably is that you were shocked at the murder of a census worker yes a young mother but this is in the context of saving a 15 year old paul with was killed by the r. U. C. In april 181. 00 around the time of join mothers there were times that. I had worked with what could be called divided loyalties almost nightly sure here i was an undercover soldier trying to focus on what i was sent there to but i kept seeing these things that contradicted the whole can a back story of what i. Mean for example you enlisted in the air for you after that killing yes what happened was i left m i 5 in 1980 december 1000 needed they just cant go back to shun financier listen i want to leave it to you just dont do it so obvious sounds was on Hunger Strike on the election and from minus 0 to long came up and there was an effort to get them elected and i spent a lot of time and for mana and soter on. Canvas and put da posters get ready for the day of the election and i came home and i was sitting at home and. My mother said to me theres a young girl comment on the steps and i think shes crying. So she went to the front door and let her and then she came and she was shaken. And it just became clear straight away that this young girl was a census collector and that what happened was she had a clipboard and on the right hand save the clipboard was called in the scale the estate they lived on a republican area and its all blocked i dont read for not going near there this is the 981 british censors that republicans all across the 6 counties were told do not you know with this colonial sense correct she was a Young Farmers wife in fact she was doing what she was doing to earn 5 pounds a day and one day or a shot her they showed a young girl that was earning 5 friends of the she was killed for a 5 when bobby signed sans m. P. Yes i dont know Hunger Strike their streets named after him around the world did you meet bobby sands if you meet Francis Hughes no no but then names they meant nothing to you well in terms of any kind of revolutionary and dario you never heard it out we never heard of bobby sands and fact i mean i dont even know it was going booked in other words if he was a fully fledged member of a or if. But but when he dated course shock waves in the north and everybody all around the world oh i mean people came from they said the cardinal from roll nice and politicians from dublin and from london. And amman francis hes i remember there was Something Like a 100000 people went develop the sounds of you know there were francis she stayed. There was a concerted effort to make sure that there wasnt that kaito night so. The body was ordered to be taken away to his family oh no one was allowed to get near it it was buried with just a few 100 people at the gravesite and it was said that on the b. B. C. You know strake and this afford to stay in the way will stop you there more from will he call in now my 5 agents after this break. Operations understand that a cost of doing business is buying and Building Support in washington d. C. And that includes staffing up and with former members of congress put them on your payroll you want to hire a chief of staff from a powerful senator or a committee. Member get their chief of staff put them on your payroll as a lobbyist this is what washington does on a bipartisan basis in fact i think its the only point of true bipartisanship in d. C. Is corporate influence over government. Join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and ill be speaking to us from the world of politics sports business im show business ill see you then. Welcome back im still with forma and i 5 agent with a college ok what is the force Research Unit you are their assets i dont know what they paid you if you tell who they paid you what exactly is the force Research Unit there have been submissions to the United Nations about it as a death squad. The 1st research in that was. A team of people that worked very early on the growing behind the backs of the british army no initially it was thought it was set up to gather information and to run agents she and for trade theory to infiltrate even the e. V. F. And their own agents and gather intelligence but as time went on agents that were working for the free who were volunteers were to be caught in compromising positions. There were all the agents at the same unit so no we had to be agents both both free informers. On inevitably what happened was one start of the kill the other which sounds crazy but it did happen and eventually we get the steak knife. It was also a free agent and he as know now understand fergies scupper teachy steak knife denies it well of course you would. He saved your life though theyll never get going to say theres no theyll never get a man to court because the minister of defense the one im in court because if he goes into court and he starts to talk about information you pass to the free pass to his hand or peter they pass it to colonel care they passed it to the minister of defense i mean her does this go im new here we have a guy who was an ira bomb killing ira volunteers. And a load to do it then and get on with it and exaggeration to say that one in 4 members of the ira around this time were members of the British Security services i would say 300. 00 agents yeah i mean i would say that. Towards the end whenever we got very close to the good friday agreement when mcginnis and now thems and everybody was round the table i believe that martin was short and or a devoted way the state of play on the groaned within the ira not names but just roughly how many people in the area right off to the top are british agents and i think he knew them you know the ratings on the war were not going when the us and i think thats way the same dop and this is wires and my fiver being infiltrated by the russians they have agents their own agents killing each other whilst being in the n. R. A. Yes and all the time your working in that is and thinking this is a job but i mean. I was in the difference 8 i was on i was on the political side for the one thing you learn a version failed on the ira even today is that the higher up you go with fear the next thing you know youre sitting at meetings astonishing finn meeting anymore its often half is sitting where they are a volunteers the set was a very commanders you know. Thats when you realize these 2 are want i mean even today weve got the Peace Process weve got Mary Lou Mcdonald weve got michelle in need weve got all these people but d. A. R. E. Army consul are still in place the area me council is their head of the Republican Movement and they dictate what happens within the political opposition very completely deny that so the eff or you going back to this because this is a submission to the United Nations i mean 864 civilians were killed around this time by loyalist paramilitaries. And link to the air for you estimates the air for you is responsible for 15 dead do you do you think there could be any truth was it a death squad you were working for mean you have to understand that my understanding is that steak knife would where possible tailless under the im going. To get this guy because we have an information that isnt and former american interrogators know there were times when he got there the guy was gone but there were times when he got there at the person was there and he was able to love them interrogate them and shoot them now i often wonder will i thought i told my under that we were going to do this and when i get there is there issued live in their way wasnt removed i mean how do you think about the fact that the family that we do of pat finucane the civil rights lawyer who represented people on both sides of the community when invited to downing street David Cameron took her aside by the window and said there are dark forces in this british establishment and this is ive done more for you than any other Prime Minister would the trying to get to the bottom of the most people believe British State sanctioned murder of a civil rights lawyer well of course i mean the guy in new vs expertise army. Is the one that went and shot putter newcomb and he was an agent of the free. Eventually was taken over there with a violent. When he was on trial they dropped the murder charts and they went for conspiracy to murder he was flown over of the natick of belfast after 4 years in prison and. If you did you should be prosecuted he was. Saddled and cared of and he died and falling off do you think any of his associates did again the one should be prosecuted here for these historical crimes against the un charter as a very difficult question. Its one of those things that i mean if youre the father of the mahler of someone who was murdered in the north of course you know you want justice and at the same time if that leads or could lead to things open up in the way a sphere there are people and politics they dont want out the up to me to mrs thatcher took a special interest in the air for you group you outlined the fact that she was specifically interested in in this group she would have been aware of these atrocities she would have been briefed that the war against terrorism has been won and that there is a unit on the growing gallery intelligence and on agents also the f. R. U. Did deals with apartheid south africa did you ever have a gun the african can know that you know of any or for you people that had their frickin guns you know theres been a lot of stuff about how arms smuggling was done with the connivance of m i 5 these are the allegations from arms traders and from apartheid south africa or arms corps the obviously fighting mills mandela this is a learned thing that ever had. Ever notice was a mean as a young soldier i mean i knew we had s n gs and we had brownings but some of the hunters out in the free had very strange looking weapons and they certainly werent weapons of war issued by the British Government i want to get on to talk about omar and i mean there has been previous allegations about f. B. I. Links to bomb making that was used by the f for you you talk about cia involvement. In effect in the omagh bombing 300 injured 29 dead. And of course the allegation that you make and others have made is that the r. U. C. Were tipped off about the omar bombing ahead of time no doubt in my mind. Peter kelly. Is known as kevin fulton he was a young soldier in the areas rangers lived in neary and he was in the ira and his recruiters by the force to search and to inform on his colleagues and. He was foreign to america where he was 3 and an o. T. Producer of last fall meaning that theres a bomb that goes off and then when the. The r. U. C. Turn up with their socalled team seems a crime of theirs and they start to take photographs flass camera sets off the bomb and kills more people so he was 3. 00 and 0 to do that and he was the one that invented that and the north he also made it all the idea to be working with the real or. It was am a 5 that took a minute to the north i think what they were looking for was for kevin to get more esteem within the unity was so it because you know from older than higher up in the movement and as far as he was concerned he was working over the border near nana he was making bombs in the bombs or just been sent up into the north. On one occasion he was involved in making a bomb and a car came from the republic of ireland collected on the conversation here over hared led him to believe that this bomb was called duma. He got in touch with his handler and he told us under no easy officer that he believed there was going to be a bomb attack on the home no ive been present with peter kelly when he phoned the handler to ask them do you remember i told you about the bomb and clearly you could hear is under sin yes i do remember it but i have to check my notes to find the information and know the strange thing is that people who parked the car on the put it the wrong place they put or that the ball on the street instead of the top of the street so when the bomber came and all the people were driven going towards the ball towards the car and thats why so many people were killed but as far as peter was concerned he warned the r. U. C. That that was going to happen bludgers if the British Government oversee denies any involvement in the bomb completely the u. V. s were also set up by aces in the free korea talmuds and dublin the korea time in somalia to try and bring these forces together loyalists in the provinces in the north wanted more police and army on the border to stop ira volunteers bring in bombs over the border to place in strategic positions in the north and they tried to force. The republics government to put boots on the ground to put army on the growing put police on the growing arms because they werent armed because if you had infiltrated the garda absolutely in southern ireland yes and the thing was when. Someone got the bright idea that. These bands these musical bands that are common from the republic to the north they might be carrying arms and ammunition over the border for the ira to collect when theyre in the north the famous Miami Showband us ago and i know you were over there as well well the u. D. R. The soldiers involved got their uniforms from it was alleged from members of the force of search and. They stopped them a army van on this way turned over the border got them all it the bomb went off too soon the static in the speakers coast aponte blowing off too soon or in the wrong place there were no rules here you know everybody was doing what they thought they could see to help this thing called to an end and there was a view that the only way this thing going to come to an end its got to get worse before it gets better and that seemed to be the view you know the British Government were involved the minister of defense were involved the r. E. C. Were involved i mean. All the evidence though because youre saying this 3 you think all the evidence would have been burnt and some of the documentation here is not for release to 2049 some of the killings on these legacy issues do you think most of the evidence of the kind that would support your allegations of such atrocities wells all are destroyed. John stocker when he led the 1st investigation and to stake they found the f. R. U. She he was tainted by having holidays was some they say this was a deliberate Security Services are excellent and john stevens called the law and he is doing well and he gathers the evidence and the evidence is burned down in the middle of night all of files all all 0 understanding to john stevens Enquiry Office they did save the papers apparently was a for you job dollar and down his office if you speak to in the 1st it was in the force of certain here get it will tell you that it was an attack from. Foreign count that were sent over the burned not property i gotta ask you though about the book itself did you know i have to get it vetted by the dino just man i got to say my program completely unfettered by deed or does this guy dino just secretary have waste bottle andrew violence yeah well were a book and cut out most of it well i have to say theres a lot in it that you wouldnt expect to be we really we thought that when it went up to the treasures a listener so that the intelligence and Security Committee could look at it we thought that most of them were very attacked at the one below the published. Although i have to say you know here we have a lawyer sitting in london and hes paid to do a job. Whatever he feels should be taken and then my 5 yet so at the same time youve got these m. P. s because thats what they are sitting on the intelligence and Security Committee a lot of them were very very little experience of the north and i dont think they would real lace by letting lovers go that it was going to cause more incompetents yes absolutely were collins thank you not fit for the show will be back on wednesday 14 years to the day evil moron is was inaugurated as the 1st indigenous president of bolivia hes currently claiming asylum in argentina undernourished you. Expect like rinku forced to deal then continue the conversation on social media as a scribe for the show on you tube. You know before george soros became vilified as a globalist market manipulator and electioneering or he wrote a lot of interesting books and of course see. How the quantum fund which was one of the best performing hedge funds ever kind of invented the modern hedge fund and hes got a lot of things to say if you look at his old work and were going to get into it. So what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have its crazy confrontation let it be an arms race. Spearing Dramatic Development only personally im going to resist i dont see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down and talk. A. Little. Bit reluctant to let you know you have something to. Libya peace talks and valving the warring sides and World Leaders create a new mechanism for a lasting cease fire we look at whether the plan can hold. Also this hour fearing violence of an upcoming gun rights rally the governor of the u. S. State of virginia declares a state of emergency and imposes restrictions that critics warn are unconstitutional. And 3 belgian doctors Face Criminal Charges for approving the euthanasia of a woman with psychiatric disorder and the 1st such trial since the procedure was legalized at the start of this century