Gradually iraqs capital and while its my pleasure to congratulate you on this place london and want to stay here starts now weve seen your vouches for you the impression that you make on clients well all be evaluated in 6 months time on risk day thats reduction in force youll be standing in this room telling all of us why you should be hired permanently to your desk and make he was making films conrad you directed hamlet university so clearly before you went in the city tensions were or were under the plane but you are very conscious of not trying to glamorize as has been done in the ninetys arguably the city of london which actually is in the news for making money out of covert arguably you didnt want to glamorize it make it set up of its to be perfectly honest we didnt have a very mean mikie sort of out of the outside were very clear that we didnt want to make it so ideologically driven show about what necessarily our kind of take on that world was i think what weve chosen to book on the on screen. Because i get away from what me and sort of think about it but i think its pretty in bedded in the subtext of the shower rather than the text of the show. And you know i think. What were really interested in really as writers the kind of a lot its this this place still oh not 6008 search for a certain type of person a certain type of graduate but as mickey says its really you know its a super inside real world and for a lot of people its a real black box but we thought if we could sort of crack it open to the president these 5 characters who are all in some way i have a socio economically or gender wise or racially that you know thats some variant of as an outsider we thought it out give a kind of a kind of universality to it to people could appreciate people who worked on it some people who didnt what lots. Of opinions are sketchy but someone close to god is very upset im sorry if you lost but if you do that here but dont use the very small one of those new you know like regional not Club Security thank you security thank you and we just hope we just do that for you to clean our stuff on your face you see what youve done that is actually arrest a billboard to how go he well i want to get back to intersection out in class in a 2nd but. Time and time again we dont want to give away the plot the i hear optics comes out it seems that your fictional Investment Bank be a point obsessed by what it looks like to the outside presumably because the reputation of bankers is a bore because the show a contemporary show that sort of set possibly even the word last 3 years but what weve been trying to do in the 1st season there are bits in a season which people could suggest that maybe slightly sensationalized and thats true and you know there are things that im practices that happen to show or its probably when we have to get away with in todays lot of climate but what we try to do in the series has basically dramatized that culture share from what you were talking about as an individual isnt a collective its a collective as well youre sort of thinking about the situation thinking about yourself that your own bottom line and the idea that you know its pushing a gray young graduates the point where some of that mental have. The house has been strained to their physical health is drained its no longer acceptable so i feel like. Wife still sort of you know it is unlikely to say those things are done purely future upticks but i feel that you know it would be probably a disservice to the industry it is just that only do something so i think there probably is probably a little bit more than olivia and more from trying to see that space go through more i think they realize they need sort of a comparative reaction changed and clearly conrad the brain drain element of the attraction of Financial Institutions because they pay more money over the dreams and ambitions of young people or what they really want to get out of life make clear on the current through the plot i think the truth is i mean the thing that ive always found interesting about this one will speak into a mickey talked about as well in terms of cultural change and right in these institutions bringing themselves up with the kind of the work climate in 2020 round you know. Attitudes to gender sort of toxicity and bullying all that sort of stuff you know i think you know as much as these institutions change theres still this inherent. Contradiction in them which is basically you know we might be you know all of that itch to talk sobbing america talk racine about being more and more of a collectivist saying were all calling us and direction but the metrics and evaluation is still very much the same as a bad debate and so you sort of every february january your boss takes you to run the slides member life and you get renumerated based on your comments appealing americal thing so i think i mean that kind of practice well obviously thats been also as a reformer on but it didnt stop the kind of back thats that kind of the kind of opium effect that bad like of like living in living that paycheck so i still think really applies to all these people who work in this industry and making the script is so brilliantly observed you use america terms like work capitalism and spin that reagan fatter thread through and theyre important to i mean arguably it has been written before the idea of banter in the office and identity politics very important to you that the issue of class was there in addition to race and sex discrimination. I think so i think its something that just so president s and president s in British Society and it would be innocent in doing a disservice to the show if we hadnt touched on it and i feel like and it may encourage it was attracted to that question about you know what makes us from what makes something from the from is a class and whether money can be something thats or stimulates you and pushes you into classes of where you were born and and also theres a reality of the american attitude to a class for us the british one and whether the american see the possible to give money in your d job and your sort of material stuff in the british one which is basically about where you were school and where you played and your parents what did you read younger a fair job fair the least amount of applicants the year before. Its a marginal gain about marginal gangs fighting on the back dont. I play thank you to to thank you so much this was just christ and Margaret Thatcher who went east on the ones recently which here is a carpenter and conrad is it a particularly exciting thing to write and a lot of fun to write given american reviews of talk about news room and other comparisons but he have things as mundane as buying lunch at the office right up to a possible war between the u. S. And the South China Sea and not conscious about the human casualties of that just conscious of making money out of the war yeah no totally i mean look the cornerstone for the show came in mickey was always. Given the fact that we came from that world we thought we were just it would be to not render as accurately as he could only as much thats it this is we could then it wouldnt it wouldnt be true its the drama of it i mean for us i mean i dont know at this is just personal taste i know if i said mickey as well as my partner is like we find as much drama in the kind of smaller moments and the kind of you know whatever it can be as mundane as getting you know going to the coffee room or you know a sort of happenstance encounter with someone in an elevator but those that those little small moments a drummer a kind of office life is all about and we wanted you know theres something inherently true about the watchability of people at work you know thats like good workplace dramas always seem to work and for us as in terms of writers we were always very keen to honor those smaller moments in the drama as well because i mean you know all of our favorite workplace dramas are all about the kind of the breath of the office and what it actually feels like to be in those places and we tried in terms of everything from the there in the sound design to the set the Production Design mimic you are obsessed with the small details like if you look at peoples desks in the show youll find that you know what they happen to have on the desk is like speaks the but theyre biography a lot so for us that the show kind of lived and died by its leaves us and we were very militant about all of us. And making how does it differ from when you were in the city presumably your colleagues didnt sit around they want to kill or are talking about power clubs. And coersion and class war. While youre having lunch i mean i would say the very boring part the bank that got the bank the bit that wrecked austin heritage to his work unless they were going to expend. Sitting in front of a computer doing excel spreadsheets and power presentations as it was getting very very tight in the process interesting read all other other power drinks are available. Ill let you talk about what mickey was just saying but we do have a chance or the exchequer recent act who used to work in to vestment bank bailed out Goldman Sachs i mean if someone watches your show and then thinks about the Different Things recent ag is doing to help the economy how can we fit in the idea that he may have worked in the kind of depicted in this show well i dont i mean i think i think what the show manages to do and i hope that just as to not trade in stereotypes i think you know a lot of the a lot of the depictions of this well classically on some level get a lot of it right in terms of the level of sort of sociopathy and psychopathy at the top of these institutions i mean im not going to states that just the states is what tends to beat on screen quite a lot while we were hoping to do is show 5 pretty flawed pretty human pretty vulnerable characters who you know very very young very impressionistic and show on some level how they vary so its these places that on some levels of these places are very corrosive to the light as i said before me mickey would never really interested in writing something that extracts about why banking never seen anyone for their i. Q. Want to see before. How many of these have you had 94 new york far here and a state. Where you hear them well its not a very political answer but. I think mediocrity is too well hidden by parents who hire private tutors. Im here on my own yeah i mean i shouldnt if you are shouldnt think this is a deep academic tome on the path. That in fact there there are a lot of of course a lot of drugs involved in the program i dont know whether youd say that that was accurate i have only seen 4 of the episodes havent seen the other 4 do you think the bank has understood while they were taking all the cocaine that the supply of drugs is about supplied the mondavi drug. Smuggling let alone Foreign Policy of the drugs market why there irony there hanging over the entire plot i think. People generally have to get appropriately. So i think im there is there was an irony about where this is where you said i think the memory. To get off. I did i always had the thought that if you if you took it could be some sort of weird reality experiment where you put all the people who were brutalized by the supply chain of cocaine into the room with the people who happen to be doing the drug but that still be that but it still end up doing it and i would think they probably wouldnt. Make it down conrad kay thank you after the break from bankers to assassins we ask the doctor who inspired killing eve about the making of a psychopath and if those deemed psychopaths by society are really just a product of it all is a more coming up in part 2 of going on the ground. There are tactics that can be used to get innocent people to confess to crimes they didnt commit i dont even think people in the us really get that the police are allowed to lie to the person who falsely fast actually came to believe the lie that they were told about their own behavior once a false confession is taken the case is closed and nobody really can tell the difference between a good confession and one that isnt. Well the pandemic no certainly no borders just blind to nationalities. As americans we dont come with the we dont have the facts in the whole world needs to be. Judged. Come in every crisis with this system to modern times we can do better we should. Everyone is contributing way but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever the challenges create the response has been much so many good people are helping us. It makes us feel very proud that we are in it together. It was mostly wolf wheres. Your. True. Love a boy who was. Sure. I can board across the. Bench to put a gun murder. Youve got to go with us because all of these to do just about because those stories could be game we will see in the movie confused with it would seem the most news but its the most insidious some of put it in your speech come home and use the of. The 20th century was thing in a revolution the Great Depression and world war the 21st century of mental illness. Those arent my words thats what surfaced some psychiatrys to tell us the only question is should we accept it as a fact. Welcome back in part one we heard from to form a bank has turned t. V. Writers who talked about psychopaths in the city of london that featured in the new show industry another t. V. Show that draws from reality for its psychopath is killing eve and the dr behind its lead character villain l. Dr mark freestone is catalogued not only psychopathy and i finance famously depicted in american psycho but those who have been crushed by a society that arguably created them his new book making a psychopath is out now and he joins me from london mark welcome to going underground so what is a psychopath the Great American writer Norman Mailer equated it psychopathic rebellion against totalitarianism. Thats an interesting definition i think such a path research has moved on a lot since since the sixtys and seventys and now we understand that psychopaths have a problem of the aryan that brain means that they dont really process in motion and it courtney brisk in the same way as other people do they they dont realize it motions other people they cant see things like sadness or fear and they cant really make very good judgments about decisions that might be not in their best interest for example so they tend to be people who take very high risk situations that they do in everyday life but thats financially hardest decisions or high risk relationships drug taking things like that and thats because we think of as i said some folks who are in the bright well given youre famous for killing eve isnt it a bit much the in the very book youve written you say media portrayals of psychopathy are often one dimensional when youve got to give credit to feed you all a bridge in that killing a team for bringing me on to try and make a sock of half you is at least superficially believe it because they have the traits that accurately represented in things like the psychopathy checklist the psychopath test we can applies ability but but. But she also has a more interesting backstory as well. Shes a child. From a broken family and shes in syria a lifestyle that really pushes her to take the kind of risks that we could pass off very happy to take regardless of the consequences so i thought it was really interesting that they wanted to make such a plausible character. Even though maybe some of it is a little bit. Like to call it unicorn in that the unicorn features is not someone that youd be very lucky to meet in your life ever write it you know hopefully not a you go through case studies i might ask you about a couple of them in a 2nd but you do quote robert have one of the founders of psychiatry segment out of the talks about psychopaths he said the modern corporation has the characteristics of a psychopathic way particularly interested in the individual psychopaths not the systemic ones because of course famously its been said that if youre in a Psychopathic Society its normal to be a psychopath the outliers are the non psych about well thats thats true i think my interest has been i i was a sociologist working with. Patients in high secure also those prisons thats how i came into this line of words and i was a supposed quite struck by how bad we were just society and they bring out what you do with something thats. Not necessarily kid approach but provided with environments within which they have any realistic childs flourishing because if somebody isnt very good at making decisions or breaking inferences about other peoples emotions and they are very good at deciding what it is a good level of risk is taking you know financially. Risky decisions or deciding what to do with their lives they are counted out in a loose end and we always try some of us like to say that you know its one of the last 5 years that we dont particularly want psychopaths around us in our society and so when we think about what are we going to do with these people we need to have a solution for those people who committed crimes provides them with a way back into society but at the same time we know that psychopaths who comes here chris and it comes through the Mental Health system tend to reoffend even if theyve been rehabilitated so whatever it is that were doing the isnt really working i never really thought that was good enough i think that we needed support a lot harder to try to create environments with a pass connection to have a meaningful and productive life and the book is kind of a buy a house just the sight of past quite a quite regular basis something. And what proportion of psychopaths in society maybe maybe around this team making going underground oh he talking about one of the scale of this so it ensured the general population i think probably about one in every 500 to one in every 1000 people would meet the criteria for a robot has psychopathy checklist which is quite a high payoff and most people in the population in the u. K. Have no psychopathic traits so they might have maybe one trait and that could include things like being a bit impulsive or taking risks or being dependent on other people being sexually promiscuous so its not necessarily the case that you have the core features of cycle but if we understand that somebody whos coming in manipur this if you used grandiose who used. Remorseless and callous in that the way that they treat other people so its not common to meet psychopaths in the general population its very unlikely that you work with them although we know also from bob has research that there are some professions such as stockbroking and chief executive officers that tend to attract psychopaths more than others but its not likely youd meet one in your you every day life whereas in prison we know that up to 15 percent of the prison population would be diagnosable its like a passer very diffe