Come there if this is not the feeling still middle of the earth the parable of the sort of good clearly there are over the if we. Take human wisdom is meaningless how has the hospitals work changed since march knickers on the one hand the team has gained confidence in their actions but on the other hand everyone is exhausted. When will you be able to get back to normal routine work if we expect the 3rd wave in spring the usual season for all viruses so we hope this wave will be less powerful when it comes to the rate of infections if it goes like this probably by june we will be back to normal i hope so but maybe even earlier well see a morning with the short answer. I. Ok watching out International Help you stay with us ill be back in half an hour. They were going underground as the 73rd World Health Assembly resumes amid a coronavirus pandemic that has killed well over a 1000000 people worldwide and could reshape the Global Economy away from washington dollar dominance coming up on the show with former Goldman Sachs banker richie soon at running the u. K. Finances join the pandemic we look at the culture that spawned not only him but also the 2008 financial crash with 2 former bankers turned t. V. Writers whose new show industry exposes the arguable class war at the heart of the city of london but what drives those who make it to the top of the world of banking we investigate the real american psychos as well as those crushed by modern capitalist society with the man behind killing dr mark freestone all of the more coming up in todays going underground but 1st coronavirus has arguably shine a light like no other on the relative responses of capitalist and neo communist societies to pandemics here in britain economic protection is under the thumb of a former banker bailed out Goldman SachsBoris Johnsons chancellor regime but whats it like to work in the city a new drama premiering tonight in the americas on h. B. O. And here in britain on b. B. C. 2 tomorrow focuses on the lives of bright graduates who enter the bailed out city of london for money their behavior in just acting with geopolitics like a potential u. S. China war its called industry and paints a tragically vivid and had mystic portrait of a dystopian source of neo liberal inequality industries to writers former bankers mickey down and conrad kay joins me now from london thanks so much for coming on a lot of people loved it and the editor used to work in spot f. X. Said it was accurate and the city of london being empty because of tell me about industry and how it somehow goes in the micro of graduate employment to war in the South China Sea in anticapitalist demonstrations. Well that it was false as you said it was bought from lawsuits already experience its been corrupt lets say that in 2009 because of the 10 and everybody felt the pressure of getting a good job was there and we wanted to finance it and i personally found out very elsies to it very very quickly come around last slightly longer but what it did spot was this 1st script rewrites recite right lets get it which was a really poor attempt to try to capture the role that it was missed by me clearance experience sitting at room about how much yes our jobs the key that unlocked it was writing from the experience of people who are at the very very bottom so i feel like it always does this because he wasnt sure about this world. Deals with people at the top even though what we thought interesting i found interesting about that well is that its never really been seen through the prism of people who have at least our very into if the 1st im. Proud to its iraq capital and while its my pleasure to congratulate you on this placement and what to stay here starts now weve seen your vouches for you the impression that you make on clients will all be evaluated in 6 months time on risk day thats reduction in force youll be standing in this room telling all of us why you should be hired permanently to your desk and make he was making films conrad you directed hamlet university so clearly before you went in the city tensions were or were right in the plane but you are very conscious of not trying to glamorize as has been done in the ninetys arguably the city of london which actually is in the news for making money out of covert arguably you didnt want to glamorize it make it set up of its to be perfectly honest we didnt have a very main mickey sort of out of the outside were very clear that we didnt want to make it so ideologically driven show about what necessarily our kind of take on that world was i think what weve chosen to buckle on screen. Because i get away from what me and sort of think about it but i think its pretty in bedded in the subtext of the shower rather than the text of the show. And you know i think. What were really interested in really as writers was the kind of a lot its this this place still oh not 6008 search for a certain type of person a certain type of graduate but as mickey says its really you know its a super inside real world and for a lot of people its a real black box but we thought if we could sort of crack it open to the president these 5 characters who are all in some way i have a socio economically or gender wise or racially that you know thats some variant of as an outsider we thought it out give a kind of a kind of universality to it to people could appreciate people who worked on it some people who didnt what lets get rid of the need to ask you did someone close to god is very upset im sorry if you lost but if you do that here but you dont use newburys well one of those new you know like regional knocked up security thank you security if you can we just hope we just do that for you to please ourselves and your peers you see what youve done that is actually arrest a billboard to how go he well i want to get back to intersection out in class in a 2nd but. Time and time again we dont want to give away the bull the i hear optics comes out it seems that your fictional Investment Bank be a point obsessed by what it looks like to the outside presumably because the reputation of bank is a poor we call the show a contemporary show that sort of set possibly even the word last 3 years but what weve been trying to do in the 1st season there are bits in a season which people could suggest that maybe slightly sensationalized and thats true and you know there are things that im practices that have been the show is probably when you have to get away with in todays climate but what we try to do d in this are serious basically dramatized that culture share from what you were talking about as an individual isnt a collective its a collective this is where youre sort of thinking about the situation think about yourself that your own bottom line and the idea that you know its pushing agree young graduates the point where some of that mental have. The house has been strained to their physical health is drained its no longer acceptable d so i feel like. Wife still sort of you know it is unlikely to say those things are done purely by future optics but i feel i know it would be probably a disservice to the industry it is just that only to use them since i think the problem is probably a little bit more than a lot more from trying to see that space go through more i think they realize they need sort of a comparative reaction changed and clearly conrad the brain drain element of the attraction of Financial Institutions because they pay more money over the dreams and ambitions of young people what they really want to get out of life make clear under current through the plot i think the truth is i mean the thing that ive always found interesting about this one will speaking to a mickey talked about as well in sums of cultural change and right in these institutions bringing themselves up with the kind of the work climate in 2020 round you know what attitudes to gender sort of toxicity bullying all that sort of stuff you know i think you know as much as these institutions change theres still this inherent. Contradiction in them which is basically you know we might be you know all about it to talk something america talk racine about being more and more of a collectivist saying were all coming at us and direction but the metrics and evaluation is still very much the same as a bad debate and so you sort of every february january your boss takes you to run the slides member like obits and you get renumerated based on your comments appealing americal thing so i think i mean that kind of practice well obviously thats been also reform around but its didnt stop the kind of back thats that kind of the kind of opium effect that bad like of like living in living that paycheck so i still think really applies to all these people who work in this industry and making the script is so brilliantly observed you use america terms like work capitalism and spin that reagan fatter thread through and theyre important to i mean arguably it has been written before the idea of banter in the office and identity politics very important to you that the issue of class was there in addition to race and sex discrimination. I think so i think its something that just so present persons in British Society and it would be interested in doing a disservice to the show if we hadnt touched on that and i feel like and it may encourage it was attracted to that question about you know what makes your sort of what makes someone from the from his a class and whether money can be something that sort of stimulates human appreciate it because of where you were born and and also theres a reality of the american attitude to a class for us the british one and whether the american see the possible to give money in your job and your sort of material stuff in the british one which is basically about where you were school and where you played and your parents why did you read younger a fair chunk for the least amount of applicants the year before. Its a marginal gain about marginal goings i think on the back dont. I play thankful to do you think is my mothers life too since christ and Margaret Thatcher went east on the ones recently which here is a carpenter and conrad is it a particularly exciting thing to write and a lot of fun to write given american reviews have talked about news room and other comparisons but he have things as mundane is buying lunch at the office right up to a possible war between the us and the South China Sea and not conscious about the human casualties of that just conscious of making money out of the war yeah no totally i mean look the cornerstone for the show to me and mickey was always. Like given the fact that we came from that world we thought it would just be to not render it as accurately as we could only as much specificity as we could and it wouldnt it wouldnt be true to the drama of it i mean for us i mean i dont know at this is just personal taste i know if i said mickey as well as my partner is like we find this much drama in the kind of smaller moments and the kind of you know whatever it can be as mundane as getting you know going to the coffee room or you know a sort of happenstance encounter with someone in an elevator but those that those little small moments the drummer kind of office life is all about and we wanted you know theres something inherently true about the watchability of people at work you know thats like good workplace dramas always seemed to work and for us in terms of writers we were always very keen to honor those smaller moments in the drama as well because i mean you know all of our favorite workplace dramas are all about the kind of the breath of the office and what it actually feels like to be in those places and we tried in terms of everything from the there in the sound design to the set the Production Design mimic you are obsessed with the small details like if you look at peoples desks in the show youll find that you know what they happen to have on a desk is like speech the but theyre biography a lot so for us that the show kind of lived and died by its needs also we were very militant about all of us. And making how does it differ from when you were in the city presumably your colleagues didnt sit around there was a killer talking about power clubs. And coersion and class war. While youre having lunch i mean i would say the very boring part of the bank that got the bank the austin area to run is work unless they were going to expend their time. Sitting in front of a computer doing excel spreadsheets and power point presentations as it was getting very very tight in the process interesting read all other other power drinks are available. How late you talk about what mickey was just saying but we do have a chance or the exchequer recent act who used to work in to vestment bank bailed out Goldman Sachs i mean if someone watches your show and then thinks about the Different Things recent ag is doing to help the economy how can we fit in the idea that he may have worked in the kind of millionaire depicted in this show well i dont i mean i think i think what the show manages to do and i hope that majesty is to is to not trade in stereotypes i think you know a lot of the a lot of the depictions of this well classically on some level get a lot of it right in terms of the level of sort sociopathy and psychopathy at the top of these institutions i mean im not going to states that just the states is what tends to be put on screen quite a lot while we were hoping to do is show 5 pretty flawed pretty human pretty vulnerable characters who you know very very young very impressionistic and show on some level how they vary so its these places that on some levels of these places are very corrosive to the light as i said before me mickey would never really interested in writing something that extracts about why banking never seen anyone for their i. Q. Want to see before. How many of these have you had 94 new york far here and. Where you hear them well its not a very political answer but. I think mediocrity is too well hidden by parents who hire private tutors. Im here. Yeah i mean i shouldnt if you are shouldnt think this is a deep academic tome on the. In fact there there are a lot of of course a lot of drugs involved in the program i dont know whether youd say that that was accurate i have only seen 4 of the episodes havent seen the other 4 do you think the bank has understood while they were taking all the cocaine that the supply of drugs is about supplied the mondavi drug. Smuggling let alone Foreign Policy of the drugs market a wider irony there hanging over the entire plot. The people generally have to look at obesity. So i think there is a risk in irony about where these things come. And i think the memory. To get off. I did i always had the thought that if you if you took it could be some sort of weird reality experiment where you took all the people who were brutalized by the supply chain of cocaine into the room with the people who happened to be doing the drug but that still be that but i still end up doing it and i would think i probably wouldnt. Make it down conrad kay thank you out on the break from bankers to assassins we ask the doctor who inspired killing eve about the making of a psychopath and if those deemed psychopaths by society are really just a product of it all the more coming up in part 2 of going on the ground. Welcome back. One we heard from to form a bank has turned t. V. Writers who talked about psychopath in the city of london that featured in the new show industry another t. V. Show that draws from reality for its psychopath is killing eve and the dr behind its lead character villain l. Dr mark freestone is catalogued not only psychopathy and high finance famously depicted in american psycho but those who have been crushed by a society that arguably created them his new book making a psychopath is out now and he joins me from london mark welcome to going underground so what is a psychopath the Great American writer Norman Mailer equated it psychopathic rebellion against totalitarianism. Thats an interesting definition i think such a path research has moved on a lot since since the sixtys and seventys and now we understand that psychopaths have a problem of the wiring in that brain means that they dont really process in motion and importantly risk in the same way as other people do they they dont realize it motions other people they cant see things like sadness or fear and they cant really make very good judgments about decisions that might be not in their best interest for example so they tend to be people who take very high risks with the situations that they do in everyday life but thats finance the hardest decisions or high risk relationships drug taking things like that and thats because we think of as i said some folks who are in the bright well given youre famous for killing eve isnt it meant much the in the very book youve written you say media portrayals of psychopathy are often one dimensional well youve got to give credit to feed you all a bridge in that killing 8 team for bringing me on to try and make a sock of half you is at least superficially believe wont because they have the traits that accurately represented in things like the psychopathy checklist the psychopath test we can apply as ability but but. But she also has a more interesting backstory as well you know shes a child. From a broken family and shes. And see what a lifestyle it really pushes had to take account of risks that we have a psychopathic very happy to take regardless of the consequences so i thought it was really interesting that they wanted to make such a plausible character. Even though maybe some of it is a little bit. Like to call it unicorn in that the mouse unicorn fetus is not someone that youve been very lucky to meet in your life ever i dont think you know hopefully not you go through case studies i might ask you about a couple of them in a 2nd but you do quote robert have one of the founders of psychiatry segment out of the talks about psychopaths he said the modern corporation has the characteristics of a psychopathic way particularly interested in the individual psychopaths not the systemic ones because of course famously its been said that if youre in a Psychopathic Society its normal to be a psychopath the outliers are the non think about well lets just show you i think my interest has been i i was a sociologist working with. Patients in high secure hospitals and prisons thats how it came into this line of words and i was a supposed quite struck by how bad we were just society at figuring out what to do its like its. Not necessarily a good approach but provide a minute barmitzvah in which they have any realistic chance of lurching because somebody isnt very good at making decisions or breaking