Hello welcome to cross uk where all things are considered im Peter Lavelle what does the left stand for today not long ago the less to do with working people and Civil Liberties now it appears to prioritize identity terry in politics over class issues we hear the word equity a lot but not equality and is there a place for marriage in our politics anymore. To discuss these issues im joined by my guest Sharon Wright austin in gainesville shes a professor of Political Science at the university of florida and monterey we have Spencer Critchley he is author of patriots of 2 nations as well as former Communications Advisor for obama for america and in paris we have John Laughlin he is a University Lecturer in history and political philosophy all right try Something Else and if that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciating you is going to john paris john you know you when you listen to my introduction and you know you were not Spring Chickens anymore the left use of you know speak up for the working class Civil Liberties was very much a. Part of the not just the civil i quite in my lifetime a good part of the Civil Rights Movement as well with the left how do you define the left today because as i said in my introduction its moved very far away from that. Well the traditional definition of course is that the left is in favor of progress and the right seems in favor of reaction or conservation and more generally i think the left is in favor of universal values wheres the right is more interested in particular values but theres no doubt that what you say in your introduction is absolutely right the left has changed a lot previous they used to be interested in much more concrete things like. You know incomes and faction conditions and Living Conditions and health and things like that and one gets the impression that in fact its more than impression im absolutely convinced that the left is instead now transmogrified into something completely different it is being completely consumed now certainly in europe and in north america by its highly metropolitan very fashionable internationalist. Elements which are the reasons why its more interested now in the kind of. Professions signaling and identity politics that you mentioned in your introduction its has lost touch with its own electorate its become as i say much more metropolitan much more privileged to be honest because very often hire on as our left wing theres a huge left wing dominance for example in the business and political circles that are currently meeting or eventually anyway at davos the title storm is history might once have you a very Left Wing Organization although that might surprise some people to hear it because it in britain embraces all kinds of nest wing things like college ism and internationalism and transhumanism and so on so basic intellect with its interest in change and its obsession i would say that the change has now moved on to new postures and has has indeed whats next behind the old election and sharon how do you really get another word that hed about a lot of us who has privilege and i saw susan rice yesterday. Announced the obama administrations. Regulations about how its going to proceed in she stresses you know marginalized group that she isnt an amazingly privileged person and good for her ok very well educated here but a lot of working class people of all colors are not very privileged ok i mean how do you how do you of course in privilege and i am very confused by that well i think that simply because she is someone who is from i guess what we would call a privileged middle class background that doesnt mean that shes not committed to people who are from a different background who for in working class because im originally from a working class background but some people could argue that i live a privileged life as a woman with a ph d. A University Professor but nevertheless that does not mean they even do you have an education even though you live in a nice neighborhood or you make a certain income that doesnt mean that you cant work in the community and that you cant serve people who are poor and working class and i think with someone like susan rice shes only qualified shes educated shes going to have a tremendous amount of experience in both Foreign Policy and domestic policy and thats something that joe biden has been impressed with as president obama was also when he was president and as a result of all those qualities i think that she is the kind of person who is going to serve her were not doubting her credentials i know that i dont combat salut les ok image has a very long career. And for some people distinguish for others not ok but spencer if i can pull you in here i mean but she did and when i listen to her speech i listen to very clear carefully there that theres no hint of class ok i mean its looking at marginalised people i would say there are tens of millions of marginal highspeed people in the working class of all races ok but she didnt cut she didnt give that indication and i find that to be rather disturbing because a lot of people might say. Well i may have the privilege but as defined by others but that privilege hasnt translated into a lifestyle that a certainly a privileged person would have by that definition i guess go ahead spencer well there are multiple interesting strands in this discussion and i agree with the critique of part of the left that it has tended to become kind of a technocratic a leap that has lost touch with its working class roots i think thats a fair critique of part of the left but the left is not a monolith just like the right is not a monolith and also just like really if were talking about recent developments in us politics its not really a left right divide anymore its more a divide between nationalist populism and enlightenment liberalism with a small al which includes moderate conservatism. Susan rice by the way is a fantastic person and i know that she has a concern for people of all kinds this suppose a divide between the White Working Class and you know members of the working class of other colors i think is a red herring thats often thrown up by people on the right to try to fuel exactly that same kind of racial resentment and cultural resentment that divides the working class against itself. They issue of helping the working class as i say is not monolithic and if you look at other parts of the left for example people often overlook voices like reverend al sharpton or reverend William Barber the head of the Poor Peoples Campaign theyre constantly talking about the interests of working people as is President Joe Biden which i think is very clear from his 1st week or so in office so as i say there is a critique of the left that part of it has become kind of elitist and focused on these important issues i would say important issues like equity but they are kind of a luxury for people who are struggling to get not have to work equity years are going to john here i mean maybe equity translate translates politically into oppressor and victim ok and thats the buy. Mary that keeps being played and for me thats just a political cudgel ok because you know they White Working Class is not necessary for the Democratic Coalition right now thats why i dont care about them ok because if they theyre not part of their coalition so why invest resources and them and again you know when we go down this this is an equity thing which i am and i am im for much of for equality because thats more makes a lot more sense to me but at what he seems to be a cover for something go ahead john well i think its going much further really its not just the democratic policy or on the left wing policies have neglected the working child so moved on to Something Else its that precise need very language uls you know looking off to the people who could be neglected is instead being taken off by the populist right that was the whole period deal of trumps and it was always the hillary sense who called the trumps the polls is deplorable so it wasnt just that they wanted it in the in the in their former electorate they actually came to hate them or at least came to hate policy of some of their political views weve seen this in britain as well have the contempt shown by many of the metropolitan left wing elite for breakfast but its for example very often a caricature of the way but its the same kind of thing as Hillary Clintons deplorable zx so thats why i say i think the left has changed really beyond the recognition you know the idea speaker was saying people are looking up to working folk and all the rest of it thats all fine but thats exactly what his notes not not now happening yes the left maybe approach me with that but im talking about the people actually in tallinn the government the people who form the elite say of the Democratic Party they are not doing anything for ordinary people quite the country they despise them and they are pursuing instead of social reform another with the calls is instead to seeming pursuing motivation and highly questionable identity politics including transgender and governors what else. Not to mention opposite to the whole race issue in america and these seem to me to be profoundly different from what we had before you know sharon and. Joe biden said he wants to reach out to to to to all americans but at the same time you know they dont people who will say you know in his 1st week in office he killed thousands and thousands of jobs and im not taking an issue on that pipeline one way or another but i mean if youre if youre. In the working class and you see that the 1st thing he talks about is cutting jobs he quitting 2nd Sexual Identity with gender which a lot of people have a very hard time dealing with that issue here and a lot of the anx that comes from people is that it is an executive order why cant it go to congress and let people debate it ok because theres no debate its just done and they and again this these creating these cleavage is that you know up again i always thought of the left as being a broad church that would be concerned with everyones interests here but it seems to be very unilateral and i think that divides people more am i wrong on that go ahead i would say youre wrong in the sense. I think that the left is inclusive and i think with joe bidens executive orders hes just trying to do things that really in his opinion should have been done a long time ago and so in the sense of immigration and a lot of other things that hes done just in these 1st few days and then also as far as the comment about killing jobs i dont think thats true either in the sense that he knows that most americans are very much concerned with unemployment and the economy and want the economy to be stable again and thats one of the things that hes trying to do but i think since hes only been in office for a few days its hard to really judge him but i dont agree with some of the things that i have heard about the left because i think the left is very inclusive and i think by them including people like people who are members of the l. G. B. T. Q. Community those are people who have never really been included before and so. I think that he really is trying to address rice for everyone including people who traditionally have been excluded it was spencer that you know the issue of immigration was brought up i mean during a pandemic and economic turndown theres going to be an opening of the borders and i say that kind of loosely i mean is that inclusive because you know again you know not being a trump supporter myself im a conservative on that and i dont even support the g. O. P. Ok but you know its hard for me to wrap my head around you know during an economic turndown and a pandemic you want to start having a much looser immigration policy thats why a lot of people voted for trump in the 1st place. You know really i think this is a series of straw man arguments were hearing here and theres as i say there is a fair critique of parts of the left on various dimensions but that doesnt mean that the worst examples we can find of extreme behavior on the left characterizes the entire left and yes it seems to enforce past week use of the last week yeah well again again where its so if were talking about extreme you know Political Correctness and extreme Council Culture and or extreme examples of arrogance towards working people i agree those are problems that exist but they certainly dont characterize the entire left which is actually as sharon says a very Inclusive Party that of course is concerned about the fate of working class white people just as its concerned about the fate of all working and middle class people this is a Artificial Division that gets exploited by the nativist populist right to divide the working class as far as immigration goes down there is a false a false its a false one action rate oh go back you will be returned youre going to get a hard right now to get you when you start getting the politics they. Is your media a reflection of reality. In a world transformed. What will make you feel safe. Isolation community. Are you going the right way or are you being. Direct. What is true what is faith. In a world corrupted you need to descend. To join us in the depths. Or remain in the shallow. Secret prisons are not usually what comes to mind when thinking about europe however he even the most prosperous can be deceived within this 0 song there were 2 view houses were allegedly prison was located and only cia people had access to the story for investigators show how they uncovered the darkest dealings of the secret services but i mean. The great ignore. Dr nonsense. You seem a bit sore knee yes or no for. Crying for justice on oxy. Well just across up here all these are considered i like you were talking about i get a cherry and jollity. Ok lets go back to Monterey Spencer i interrupted you before we went to the break please continue sure and to get to immigration again unfortunately thats no nationalist right which is what i would say trump ism is its agreeing with you that it has very little to do with traditional conservatism it really makes no sense as conservatives are not i think if i could interrupt the ethno i mean trying to groom his support among minorities in 2020 that is you know refutable solely i wish we could be a little bit more careful with words ok unless people of color are voting against their own interests i mean i have a hard time believing that police and i think you know if we when we see people waving confederate flags and wearing auschwitz t. Shirts and storming the capitol and we sowing the proud boys in the vanguard and and we see trump fanning racism since before he declared with the birth or is a conspiracy lie i think we have to consider the case closed that thats a White Nationalist element thats very strong and trump ism and if you trace back the history of what trumps demagoguery as i do in my book patriots in 2 nations if i could mention that back to the founding of a country in the countering lightman it is classic classic ethno nationalist demagoguery and we could talk about why there were rises in support among some latinos and some africanamericans but its not at all indicative of what youre suggesting its probably another topic for that requires a more detailed discussion absent release which adds lightroom that nations right john has pointed out already john harris right now theyre theyre still going to laurels and theyre always going to be deemed deplorable and they didnt you know so and that every Single Person that voted for donald trump carries a little bit black stripe i cannot get john right now i know and you know at home they all put on their planned out ok i mean this is a caricature is well and i want to keep going with class and he told way i call your go ahead john. Well i think im sorry to i dont want to be rude but i think it is what weve just had is a soto is an example really of the. I thought i would use the word hate filled but i would be very rude indeed but this the left is always portraying its enemies as evil and you know weve just heard stuff about outfits t. Shirts you know they go when the gold when movement has has come pretty quickly in this debate and this is what gives the left its terrible force and i say this with Great Sadness as a conservative because i do think that unfortunately perhaps its the nature of conservatism but i find that we are always on the defensive and where we basically observe one defeat after another trump is only the latest even though 1 may of course great with you peter the trump is to expect a classic conservative but the fact is that the left has won again and again and again and i think it is because of this this this im sorry to say this but i think this hatred of the other side which is what makes the left get up in the morning its what makes them. Want to live its what they believe the left believes that it is fighting dragons that is fighting these evil people all over the place and thats what gets the left what c. S. Lewis called that hideous strength and that hideous strength unfortunately i think is engulfing a soul on both sides of the atlantic you know sharing the issue of tolerance that was another hallmark of the left that i remember and lived through and obviously have studied here and im very i think thats the this Chilling Effect of big tech amplifying this intolerance of speech here i mean i would like to think all of us speaking on this program right now thinking the best way to get rid of bad ideas is to push and convince people with good ideas but if we cant have that debate then how can we find the best ideas and best ideas where we can find. Consensus because so many people on the conservatives and recently in the last few weeks a lot of populists and and people further to the left theyre finding themselves being canceled or suppress i mean all mike is ation is and i im sure john will be certainly that will agree with me is that this neal liberal radical center has been a failure 1st so many people and now be taken once to make sure that they can control the narrative because if they dont then these people in power will never be held accountable because we cant debate them issues doesnt that bother you that you know you you and you may not have the best idea because it was never debated go ahead cher well i think that when i think about some of the things that are going to happen of course which were in facebook i think some people would look at that as a form of censorship but i think they all make so these efforts especially which witter the president tried it was because of the suresh in its capital because over he is President Trump has been giving be sending a lot of different types of tweets and he was able to do that but once it got to point where it was believed that he was inciting this is a russian capital thats when they felt that they really needed to do something and some of the other people at least in social media decided do the same thing and i dont know if i necessarily agree with it but i understand why they felt that that was necessary yet it didnt share and you know they they mean the platform parlor was canceled and it was by its competition you know becoming huge and these people are almost mumon off police and now theyre even more monopolies because they got rid of their competition but you know they did a reason for that was is that some of the. Comments on that platform that were easily duplicated on twitter on facebook but nothing was done to those people whatsoever but there was this monopolistic again up on one platform. Getting rid of them for reasons that were no different on their own platforms. So would you like to reply to that because it was current not only just ideas major still in business competition sure yeah and if i may johns characterization of my opinions is completely wrong i invite him if he has time to have a look at my book which argues exactly the opposite. And this is another straw man argument its certainly not fueled by hatred and im constantly appealing to people on the left to try to understand how good people would have voted for trump and what the reasons for that are some of it is racism but it doesnt explain the whole picture by a long shot my point is trump is an ethnic nationalist demagogue the support for him has all kinds of detailed explanations that said its also pretty ironic that conservatives are objecting to what private Companies Choose or to carry or not carry. You know this is another anti conservative position which exposes the fact that trump is and has very little to do with conservatism and its you know shows no understanding of what the 1st amendment actually says again doesnt mean im comfortable with whats going on and i do think its an indication of the serious trouble that democracy is in for multiple reasons let me go to john and his one year because it is not only is it it is my own monopolistic Business Model now its women of open a holistic ideology my own head. Well im disappointed in what i just had shirley say because. I mean you know jojo your University Academic like will i could care you should share this story sharon i think. You should go to the source is the fact is that twitter and president trying for 2 tweets one of which said usual take. Platitudes about making America Great again and how were all going to carry on fighting or what have. You nothing theres no not the slightest incitement to violence and the 2nd tweet was a tweet saying i will not be attending the inauguration of joe biden on january whatever the date was neither of those 2 things can possibly be. Considered to be incitement and charm the only reason why you seem to be so tolerant of all this intolerance is that the i would say again very hate filled democratic representatives led by nancy pelosi. Have given have essentially given the old monks about has followed them and youll just siding with your own your own side against by the way the law and the american constitution and i find that deeply troubling i find these straw man arguments kind of a waste of time if we could talk about actual reality instead of painting each other as demons i think weve got a little farther you can respond in at least rosemary yeah i just wanted to say that part of this where i think there was a fear that president truck in the last days that he was and also that he would tweet something that would incite further violence and i think thats why they banned him and it wasnt necessarily because of what he posted yes i think when you get the chance really appearing he didnt even listen yeah im sorry im sorry even the New York Times you didnt see and just talked about how this was planned by other people ok on these different platforms. Ok i mean the news has moved forward but the left and im going to be very adamant here this is a conduit for them theyre overjoyed by this now because it is still skeer into them into the public and now they can do what they want to do in the name of National Defense against domestic terrorism and again the Division Gets greater and greater and i think by overplaying this here youre alienating even more people because most people are saying i have nothing to do with Something Like that ok but the left collectively paints them all as the same now that may be good for your power purposes but its not good for governance in the future and theres going to conservatives do this thing growing in alienation of the body politic ok and i think thats where the division comes from i really wish you guys would step back and see you know you should be careful what you wish for going to check because theyre both theyre both sides sort of leaks of the division its not just the left its the right as well i grant you that i grant you that ok but i think you know when you have the monopoly of the mid media of hollywood now in government here i think its incumbent upon them to say i mean what are you guys afraid of ok but you know you have the power ok so why dont why do we engage each other instead of just demonizing each other spencer im going to give the last 25 seconds go ahead sure again you know if we do straw man arguments are we paint the other side as a monolith thats all marching in lockstep we can make any point we want but this is not true of the left. Ive got a lot of experience working in Silicon Valley and my past the dominant ideology among Silicon Valley executives i would say is libertarianism they certainly dont take instructions from nancy pelosi and many of the leading critics of or at least questioners like myself of what twitter and facebook are doing are on the left so it is certainly not a monolith meanwhile we have just seen an armed attack on the u. S. Capitol by a president whos been fomenting division. And yes calling for violence throughout his term and thats not a divisive answer very rapidly running out of time and to give credence to it is one interpretation of events that is not universally accepted here i want to thank my guests if you still want to rake in paris i want to thank our viewers for watching us here r. T. C. Next time remember. 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