Where the authorities treat themselves into thinking that they can get away with clamping down on truth tellers. Im john kerry. Ok. Welcome to the whistle blowers the. 2 2 2 2 2 2 a georgina health vert hall joining the case, royal navy upon graduation from school and worked in Human Resources before leaving to raise a family. She later returned to spend 3 years in Financial Services before moving to the department of works and pensions, where she was, the leadership and Performance Management specialist. She became the 1st internal Human Resources leadership and Development Consultant there working for the chief of staff in 2008. She went into the non Profit Sector as the chief executive officer of a charity in early june, 2014. She was surprised at her home when a police van drove up while she was in her kitchen preparing lunch, 7 armed officers wearing stabbed vests and carrying guns, forced their way into her cottage and arrested her. She was charged with handling stolen documents and was taken to a Police Station for questioning. What was the catalyst for this action . Georgina had exposed bullying and systematic abuse that her son school, which was one of the countrys most famous military schools. She and her husband had sent their 11 year old son to the duke of Yorks Royal Military School because it claimed to instill military values and its students. Instead, it was a place of punishment, abuse, and bullying beyond the boundaries of decency. And more was the blowing was to follow that was in the Charity Sector in the n, georgina how for the whole one, her various legal cases. But that has not stopped the struggle. Its the life of a whistle blower. Even one whose work might be for the most part under the radar, georgina health or hall, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining us. Absolute pleasure. John is loved it to me. Id like to start at the beginning. You were a wife and a mother going about your business, like any normal person, you were working and taking care of your family and then one day you were in your kitchen making lunch and your home was rated by the authorities. Tell us about that. Why did that happen, and what was your reaction and well, its all positive, much big a story. Ive been given some information that i provided to the laurie 1st one in the u. K. And they gave it back to me and told me to look after it. And that information was all about child abuse in the school. And i didnt touch the expect to have my house rated by 7 Police Officers were in the riot, get food with the helmets. I suppose thats polite. Perhaps they should have taken off the shoes as well, but they will consent. The tie has been handling the stone and dont humans, the die has been inappropriate with peoples data. Were not so fight to like tried to do is spin into demitria and pass it to the people who had the substitute powers or 13 will want to do something to stop the abuse of children. And that just really lets me into this journey is just, its about just just isnt it . And they take the wrong movement on the wrong day. I didnt, i didnt know what happened, but i just, so im not putting up with this. And the Police Offices consent i, i said at the time in the same kind of time im talking to you, this is a korea defining moment for you guys. And it was, i ended up sitting, facing them there. And just as henry herrings, im seeing how, i think fundamentally days some people have been missed directed, but theyre gonna pay for it for the hold of the rest of the career and their lives. Probably. In the meantime, none of the people involved in abusing children and covering it up. None of them, its appropriate help to attempt. Its been hushed up. People have been swept away. The x rays have probably been to tiles. In some cases, this is mitchell receipt is has left to no impact. But im told that the Police Investigation is ongoing. I dont suppose this much alacrity behind it. These are the still appropriate across most countries that these are just children. Everythings historic. Laughter has happened. And weve got biggest things to do with the evidence will be easier to obtain and substantiate. And you 3 more enforcement, you know, how difficult the, you know, how high the bar is, how you have to get your witness to be able to speak. And im children in a tory see not listen to. So i, i suppose for me, this whole issue around with supplying is about access to justice and about ensuring that the amount of who you are, how old you are, where you live, what your background is. You are not outside of that system that is open to everybody and that there are people who like actual to ensure that you are listen to. And if youre speaking of, ive asked about other people that you will listen to on 2nd off. So everybody is protected, we need a safety that for every citizen, not just in the cape around the world. How long did this drag out . Presumably the authorities try to intimidate you by charging you with stealing some sort of documents. What was that all about . And how is it finally resolved . You know, lots of times going by this will happen to me in 20, in june 2014 fresh. Just to just stay for the 6th of june, 2014. So you can see that its only 10 years. Its 9 years ago. Um and i tend to try and focus on the upside effects that the action was taken, that the particular school this relates to the to give you up for a military school in kent. Im sure its probably one of the safest schools on in the world now. But it took a parent because the people who, who were working in the school who had tried with brushed aside, but many of them didnt try because they were too afraid of what was happened to them. I dont think hun braver old than anybody else, to be honest with you, just called me perhaps as a time when i felt i suppose incense enough to want to do something about it. Im so as for my journey yet its still, its still going on really because then we will live with the legacies before this happens. But what i would say is it really made me recognize that most people are good to. Most people are not all full of many people get caught up in these conspiracies and cover up some someone. No, because they set out to do it. But they just, we think its jumped into a system. And im sure when you think back to your experience, john, that most of the people around you probably didnt think she was doing the wrong thing. But they, you might have been asked in a different way. Im sure lots of people look at me and think you could have done a different way, which is why now were nice to advise in people. I help them to avoid some of the bad traps that are out there and keep themselves safe. Georgina, after your whistle blowing experience, you went on to found the group whistle blowers, u. K. Tell us about whistle blowers, u k. And the work that youre doing there. What do you focus on . Well, it was founded by groups of peaceful grade because some where was the blows up as a piece of what twist supplies and then senior positions. And it was about helping to facilitate access to justice. Im wondering if hes, if it prompts that press to, to stop people going notes and get digging themselves into holes and getting themselves into trouble. Um, it was all about creasing a community with neighbors. You would have to walk this, letting me road alone. Because we do stay on our website, you know, alone, you know, so im sure we, we just sent the facilities to help everybody. But we do try. And its a, in, in our organizations, ideas were around identifying the commonality, developing a consensus about what legislation needs to look site to create fast, safe and a level playing field. Everybody who speaks up or, and we, we do the am, attends the prep, perhaps collections, you know, didnt just wake up when it goes. Thats what were going to do. So it looked like it should have been developed, say for periods of time, a more more people joined us and you know, i would train now is go hundreds of people on it and some get off and some get back on again, some, some change direction altogether but some dimensions setting those principles that we, we want to help provide practical supports help and information for whats the blow is to do that weve got a free, confidential reporting platform. So then they even have to speak to anyone if they just want to test the waters. Weve got like a great culture of dedicated caseworkers to understand the sexes and also have developed real counseling skills that give people that reassurance again back to they didnt feel the 9 that they feel listen to the feel understood. And we take the paste. They want to get to the, with the blow wants to go out. And we dont judge because everyone makes mistakes. No, every list of low is a good test. And lets face it, you know, good people do bad things about people, the good things and some, you know, so im just all mixed up in both. But we have developed the most amazing team as lloyd is led by in mitchell. And he was in court representing a really complex case probe, i know, and its taking him months supported by one of our junior and training e barristers. All of this is what weve built, a community that respect, some responds to each other. No time we didnt charge. Im sure youve heard about it in the criticisms, but we dont charge most people. We just ask people to come see if they come. Because if we dont, we dont have the fund is. We dont have regular funding. The government dont give us money. We all the only, not for profit organization. Were not a charity. So we, we struggle for funding and we do the best that we can with what weve got. But we try to prepare with suppliers and, and we try to work with people to keep the mentally, physically and emotionally strong, unable to go through. A process that can take me is and change is how people think and often change his lives. But well say try and work with the families as well, keeping everybody together, keeping the support network in place and being part of it. I talk about whats the basic case assembly is that people come on, they come off, they get on the golf, but were always the. And we remember the people at times behave in different ways because they distressed. And there was this and you know, when you didnt know what your future is, having has it or planned out. This is a massive shops of people. Back to the east of sophistication case really about support information and help and being a family. Weve got and im going to give him a good shouts out cuz i want you to interview him. The amazing night will attend and hes just a fabulous guy. And hes a whistle by himself and hes been absolutely to hell and back. But hes now leading up here to pay support and designing a really for the team process and, and a program that will give always to blow. Isnt anybody else who wants it even more support and confidence in that theyll just speaching up within a group. But to their, to their employer or to an Organization Building takes ability building a culture that we want to see from the inside out. Were trying to move the, what we want other people to take can we dont just talk the tools. It makes sense to me, get it wrong, hands with a f, as you know, updating and trying to improve things, listening to our feedback, and on top of size, youve asked me what we do now is just giving me a, youve given me the ability to of all the things i love talking about or the so we have the ways we run is then sweet run conferences. We have month twice, monthly meetings, and we talked about topical things. We get people writing blogs, we get people involved in developing events because this isnt about me. Im really just the math piece for it. But its about all of these, pick them what they the richness of their experience and how thats driving the changes. And as a result of our fidgety is, you know, im also the director of strategy and politics, the old policy problem actually proof with the blowing. Now theres a huge team of us now working around the phase, calling ontario. But we have written what developed richardson to build a trust is on, and its going through a problem and reprice. Thats cool. The protection of with the blank bill is going to transform the way we think about whistle blowing. And on top of that, weve now started to build a global team of labor, literally alliance of people who are equally concerns. They might be in cios, they might be list as low as they might be. You know, the professionals in Different Countries because we have this on bishan and another one of our colleagues iris to not just a very increased came up with this brilliant tongue a global treaty. But why not . So were trying to develop what that will look like to move on as many people as possible to get involved and put their voice into this. Georgina, thanks for being with us. Stay with us. Were speaking with british whistleblower georgina how ford hall. After the break, were going to talk about her with the blowing in the Charity Sector in the u. K. And the group she founded to helped countless other whistle blowers. 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 the the the, as soon as 2016, numerous monuments to serve you as soldiers and potent ukraine and the Baltic States have been destroyed all vandalized fish their stuff, but it must be the most of them. Are you within you must or even some others could. I ask if i really so thats the most on whether its express almost spring in the Police Government denies the rule of soviet sonya is in the victory of a naziism. And is it raising historical memories of world war 2 . Because the date is from your story, although it did seem the non c regimes, the trustees would remain think since peoples consciousness forever. But as long as rustic phobia is profitable and brings dividends, you are willing to have a to rewrite the cost. To take up the ill provide i need to see because the truck, so i need october 30th. But its typically what is the ukraine conflict . Really all about were told is about democracy. Other say its about the reuse baseboard or whatever that to me. In fact, there is nothing noble about this conflict. Its just another huge grip. Those in power want to keep it that way. Welcome back to the whistle blowers. Im john kerry onto were speaking with british whistleblower georgina how ford hall. She has blown the whistle against wrong doing multiple times 1st with regard to bullying and her sons military school and next in a Non Profit Charity georgina, thanks again. For being with us, its great. Im really excited. Almost no whistleblower sets out to be a whistle blower. Most of us are professionals who are just going about our normal lives. But then you see evidence of waste, fraud abuse or illegality. And you feel compelled to Say Something in the end. Many of us either walk away from our careers and focus on whistle blowing or were thrown into the life of a whistle blower. Youve embraced whistle blowing and you have helped countless other whistle blowers who have followed you. Tell us about that. Well, im really, again, im really cant, is a full rate health professional. Im upset with evaluation and, you know, setting something out and what do we do . So we have, we have a board of directors, we have a associate membership. I wish i looked up the numbers before i talked to you, but over a 100 and we rely on those people to give us all feedback. But in terms of so the more easy, measurable, so we receive eva, 3000. 00 emails and telephone calls every year we, we have at least on average an it guy goes to st. J for, for him doing all the in a back room stuff. And we get on average 3 inquiries a week that come through the r n pays on them parliament. All that demonstrates that people trust is we get, we get referrals from a test, which is one of the government bodies that do all the traction. We get recommendations for another law firms. We get recommendations from around the world just before us they. I was speaking to you today. I was doing an interview for the talent government with a time slice a. And i think that what weve done is weve said roses in via hostage to perfect. Lets keep moving with it because its to be stuck in something and say, this is what were going to do. And were just going to do that. But when we recognize its not working, all the landscape is shifted. Weve been out trial and weve decided to respond to it and not criticize it. Take fluids. The best idea is that the best time, and thats i think, well its not cool to retain more family, it changes people want to be there and no say, well, would it be done in 5 years . I suppose we did a lot more than people have done in 15 or 20 or even says he is in 10 going from looking at legislation. We had demonstrating why it doesnt look. Im proposing something it does. Because if you just wrap it, its easy for politicians, they built millions of other things that doing make it easy, make it something they can, i didnt understand and demonstrate how its going to benefit of the citizens. I think thats been the strength and what were doing. We dont criticize, we always look for solution, take that and then and discuss it. I know that in your role as the founder of whistle blowers, u. K that you regularly advised businesses, members of parliament and regulatory bodies on whistle blowing legislation. Ive done the same thing through the Excellent Organization blueprint for free speech, which is based in australia. Its been my experience that many countries are very desirous of draft whistleblower protection legislation, but then it becomes very hard to actually get that legislation passed into law. Tell me about your own experience with legislation. Whats the reception been like in the u. K. We are very creative about the things that we do and weve, weve, weve puts in place things like 10 plates to make things easier. And we all going to go into that. Its very as a, the to our handbook. But again, that will be free to everybody, to, to give them an idea of how to whistle blowers, not just in the paper globally low. We have put in a section for how the lower the naval works and the u. K. 3 shows the people that fall into one of those bad traps, you know, running out of time using the wrong language. Dont taking the right books. Its, its those fundamental basics. Its really hard to do when youre not an expert in the area. And youll say probably very stressed on time constraints. So we, we, you kept trying to think of all the way. Its not list my words, which is not like me. We, we look at. Yeah, quite so i know youre locked in for a good reason that so we just keep getting people to maps the chronology out. We get them to be clear. We support them in that process and provide the critical friendship.