Welcome to inside story. Im ray suarez. For a long time weve known that people who spent time behind bars are more likely than other members of the society to get in trouble again, but advocates for exoffenders ask if were really series about lowering recidivism rates, should we force people to disclose their history before getting work on the job application . Prime rates are lower, inmate population is huge, creating conditions to move to ban the box. Reporter here is a peek inside of one of Washington State large turn Key Manufacturers in airspace. Look past the Assembly Lines of sheet metal and you will find former convicts working. While there is a place in society for justice, we also have to have room for redemption. Reporter as chief executive officer karen lee explains, Human Services is part manufacturer, part Training Center and 100 the home of Second Chances our motto is a chance for change. It has it has been that way for 15 years. Reporter she discovered that while a large percentage of the people are hearing impaired, many of them were having a difficult time getting a job anywhere else. Oftentimes if you can check that box, the employer just takes that application and puts it in the trash. They dont look at it. We can tell our clients that the employer is not going to put your application in the trash. Theyre actually going to look at it. Then our client has hope that they will have the opportunity to tell the story and get that job. Anybody feel beat up about this process of looking for work . Reporter this man will tell you it is not that simple is it an automatic entry that you will get that job . No. You still have to be qualified that youre the best candidate. What it is designed to do is to get your foot in the door so they have a chance to consider you before they ask about the convictions reporter he runs a nonprofit called conviction careers. He teaches excons what to do and say after they get a call for an interview. Thats when a potential can and often will ask about a criminal record you can tell whether somebody is able to a job. After that its personality, how youre going to fit in, do you need to be monitored, are you going to get along with people or are you going to cause trouble. We want people to demonstrate that theyre a great fit for their Company Reporter why the city cant say whether exconvicts have had greater success of looking for work, they have an office dedicated to banning the box. They will search through job application forms and fielding complaints. One Success Story is 21yearold marques tailor. We met him two years ago when he got a job. That was after being denied for more than 100 jobs. When you fill out so many job applications and hear the same thing, no, because of your record, it makes you want to return back to a life of recidivism, to commitment crimes because you have no opportunity reporter me is still at the Organization Today and he believe banning the box gave him a shot it costs us 30 grand a year for somebody to be incarcerated. That doesnt include the costs of catching them, trying them, et cetera. Reporter a ban the box bill recently fell in the washington legislature, but leap isnt deterred there may be an employer out there that says, well, since it is the law, i guess we will comply. They will begin to change. Reporter the road to redemption starts with the ability to work joining me is two guests who served their term and they co founded a Small Business and Training Center designed to help returning citizens and veterans reenter the workforce. A lot of people probably dont realise how hard it is, even without banning the box to reenter. Tell us your own story. Was it hard coming back be into the General Community . Yes. It was very hard. Almost impossible to get a job. Whenever i would apply for a job, they were immediately look at me and listen to me talk and then hire me and they tell me they couldnt keep me because i had been incarcerated was lying an opening . I could have done that, but i just didnt answer the box. I sell i will explain in person but i never got a chance because they already knew how about you, did you find it difficult to be honest about what you had been through . Yes. I did because when i first got out i applied for a Training Program at an automotive manufacturer and i went through the interview process and during the interview they asked me where i had been for the past four years. I was honest with them. I told them i was in prison. They closed the interview down at that time and told me thank you for applying, but we cannot use you did you start this business almost because it was hard to get a job any other way . Why we started this business, because we had to work. We didnt want to back to prison. We had to eat and clothe ourselves. We want to give back to the community and people that were coming out behind us out of prison and giving them an opportunity to work you dont have the box on your employment applications when you come to a cut above the rest . No what do you want to know about their past . I dont want to know anything other than are they a hard worker, do they want employment, do they want to make a better place for themselves in society because if theyre ready to make that change, then were ready to give them employment if you have been in prison for any length of time, are there just things about the work life that youre no longer as familiar with . Showing up on time, getting yourself from place to place, because for years youve been followed where to be and told where to be and when to be there yes. That is very debilitating for an individual. When i first got out i was afraid to go very far away from my dwelling because i had been taught to stay close to the building, not to just wander off. It made had hard. Technology stands still inside the prison wall. When you get out and all this technology has evolved, youre lost. You dont know what a kiosk is to apply for a job. It is mind bog eling and thats boggling. Thats why we give Life Training to use a cell phone, Laptop Computers if youre a home owner and youre hiring a cut above to come do your lawn, do your hedges, redo your backyard and that kind of thing, would you want to know if some of the men and women doing the raking and sewing have been convicted for break and entering or stealing propert property . No. As long as you maintain my yard, i dont have a problem with you as a company noone has ever asked who are these people, can i be sure that everything is going to be okay by hiring you . No, because myself and juanita as the owners of the company are always there and if they have a problem, and its never a problem with our employees, but if they have a certain way that they want us to do their hedges or whatever, they come to the owners, which is juanita and i is there any difference in the work product in the reliability and punksality in the punctuality of those who are exoffenders and those who are not . There are a lot of difference. Annex offender has to prove them self and ethey know being late is not an option is on the job. Theres always someone in line waiting on that job, your appearance and dedication is very important. I dont play any games with my people. I teach them well how to perform their duties and i expect them to carry out the task as theyre supposed to can people who come to work for you kind of get trapped because you are willing to take them on but then the next place they go after theyve made a successful reentry, got a couple of years of work under their belt, the next place they go is still going to have the box and still will ask them if theyve been convicted of a crime i dont believe its called traps. If they dont ban the box, they will have to answer that question, but if theyve got someone that can give them a referen reference, theyve worked for a person two years and maybe work ran out, so im applying to your company, will you give me an opportunity. I think it makes it easier once youve worked for someone and you have a proven record of working. The majority of people that come out of prison dont want to reoffend, but without a job, without a place to live, without some kind of acceptance in society, theres nothing to prevent them reoffending. It is the only way that they can survive has a cut above been a bridge into other employment for people who are coming back out onto the streets . Yes. It has. First we were in huntsville and then we moved to mongomery. All of our workers who did not want to move, we gave them letters of reference and they all have employment in huntsville with lawn care companies. Now weve moved were running the not for profit training the owners of cut above the rest. Thank you the box made it tough for these two women to get to work after their release, so you can see why they favor banning the box, but is that a onesizefitsall solution . Are there certain employers, particular services where the customer would definitely want to know a worker was once incarcerat incarcerated . We will thrash that out next on the inside story. This year is blowing our minds. Scientists are studying el nino from space and the oceans. When the pacific speaks. Everybody better listen. Techknows team of experts show you how the miracles of science. This is what innovation looks like. Can affect and surprise us. I feel like were making an impact. Lets do it. Techknow where Technology Meets humanity. Tonight on inside story were talking about banning the box. The idea allows former convict to not disclose their previous trouble with the law by checking that box when seeking employment. Im joined by an officer of the National Law Enforcement project and another. If we did ban the box, would this allow exoffenders to permanently put that conviction into the memory hall or just take it off the opening encounter, the first threshold meeting with a prospective employer . Right. I think what youre referring to is exactly what is a misunderstanding. When people here ban the box theyre thinking, you mean i can never find out the information about a conviction history . Thats just not the case. Its delaying the conviction history until later in the process. The reason thats important is because it gives job applicants the real opportunity to show that theyre qualified for the job. So an employer can look at the whole person and thats what this policy change is about do we know, is there any way to know whether that one thing, making it a second tier question rather than a firsttier one, actually changes the outcome when annex offender is trying to get a job . Absolutely. This policy has really taken off. There are now 16 states and over 100 cities and counties across the hundred that has a policy in place. So we can see from evidence that this has worked. I will point you to durhan, north carolina, the social justice worked with the city and county and found that numbers of people with records did increase after the policy was implemented. Thats good for the local community. That is good for the local economy. It is good for everyone really during the day today your members probably interviewed thousands of people for jobs, im guessing, somewhere between the east coast and the west. Where does that fit, a persons record, in the whole range of things that youd want to know about them before you offered them a job . It depends on the business and the industry. The ban the box policy i say are not good policies for Small Business because its that one size fits all. Starting in businesses youre going to want to know that information about that. Youre sending a sheet rocker into somebodys home. You want to know. Theres liability on the line. If that sheet rocker goes in there and steals something, if the individual has a conviction for theft you want to know that sooner and have a canned difficulted discussion with this person at the interview not later on this is a genuine inquiry about someones past . Yes. Small businesses should have the same right to ask that question on the application, that we want schools, Financial Institutions and even the Little League to ask on their job applications at a time when there are a lot of people who are unemployed or under employed, does this mean youre going to go to the bottom of the pile . Absolutely not. Ive talked with Business Owners who are willing to give convicts a Second Chance because they themselves may have had problems with the law. Your first two guests were very addmirable. Theyre members that i represent that are in the same boat. Theyre willing to give the individuals a Second Chance, but in certain industries, certain businesses, you need to be very careful. If you work with vulnerable populations, you run a karate club, a day care. They need to look at the job application and say this is something i want to talk about with the individual during the interview how about that . A couple of things there. I just want to point out that this is a problem that is just tremendous. We have an estimated 70 Million People with some type of arrest or conviction record across the country. Thats what the National Employment law project has estimated. We need to join together about this problem. It cant upyou some organizations, we need businesses to come to the fore too. Ei have seen small street Business Owners say they support ban the box because it is the right thing to do for their community. They understand that if were going to have an economy that works for everyone, then people that are sentenced practically to a life sentence of joblessness, thats not good for anybody. Its not good for Small Businesses or big businesses thank you to you both. How do you balance out the manning the box . Welcome back to inside story. Were debating banning the box on employment applications, a box that forces job seekers to reveal past convictions or incarcerations. I have two guests still with us. Crimes plot out on a broad continuum, but a yes no question doesnt give you a chance to plot out somewhere on that broad continuum that may not be that scary no. Youre absolutely right. Athats why a good job application is going to have a yes no, but room for an explanation. What was the crime and when did it occur because when i talk to Business Owners, i reiterate how important it is to make individualised assessments. You should not be discounting somebody who has a conviction. What is the crime . Is it relevant to the job . When did it happen . How old were they . A lot of people like to have that conversation. It gives somebody a Second Chance, but they want to look at the individual in the eye it was pointed out how many tens of millions of people have this problem. This isnt just a recidivismlowering social welfare project. This is something with severe economic consequences. If the futures of tens of millions of people are hindered. I appreciate that, but to put this all on the back of Small Business owners i think is asking too much. For the one fits all policy. Some of the bon the box policies give discrimination lawsuit right to somebody who was denied a job unless they can provide a reason why. I dont know how the Business Owner would ever be able to prevail. There is really liability concerns there for the Business Owner is the burden on your organization, and organizations like it, to show this works, to show the success rate is good enough to pass the sniff test of an organization like elizabeths . Fortunately, we dont have to be in that position because we can see what has been tried and tested across the country. Now, the fact of the matter is this policy has been in place for years. Im going to name hawai arcs, it has had a policy in place since 1998. That applies to private employers too. What we have seen are benefits. The kind of fear tactics that there is going to be litigation or this is on the back of businesses and they cant handle it. In reality that hasnt panned out. They have been able to make this work. We have seen chambers of commerce come on board for this because it is right to do are we at a point in our countrys thinking about crime where were prepared and look at the treatment of sex offenders as an example, to continue to punish people after were done pushing . Right. You really point out, i think, a key point here, and that is we cant just punish people for the rest of their lives. It makes no sense to take individuals who are ready, who are willing to work, who are qualified people for the job, and then make sure that they cant have the opportunity to support their families. There is one research that i think that is an important one to keep in mind, a study came out that showed in 200857 to 65 billion losss to our committee was due to the people with important prospects. Thats something we have to contend with i want to give you one more shot. Is there a way short of a mandate that these two arguments can Work Together and find a way that is palatable for your members to start this process . Making that assessment is very important and for law makers to under that the hiring process of a Small Business is different. It is the Business Owner youre asking to delay in this long drawn out process thank you both joining us for inside story. I will be back with some final thoughts on crime rates, work and human nature. If you have an opinion about todays story or a story about banning the box that you would like us to share. End us on twitter or follow me and get in touch at ray suarez news. Tell us about your own experience. We would love to hear it. Many people who have served time will reoffend, but many wont. Those that do become a millstone around the next of thoughs necks of those who learn the terrible cost to those and their families the consequences of breaking the law. Cormss, individual bosses, Government Entities that b