But no I'm askin please to take it that's all I want but I don't like your doctor and you want me to. Get rid of. Them fix very. Very carefully at what you want to take it for the joy Hopper wants of 103 but it's got. You can get it I think every 10 minutes or for a better time of my career on the wake of. The Barack Obama also the boss on toll roads you're a part of that rather reserved Web site these people I could hear I don't know what they were. And you've got to understand have seats and I think ultimately he's. Got to go into the Oh come on William I'm with you oh no look at the size of this Q What chance do we stand we'll never get and I'll stop moaning I'm going to get in to see this ballet if we have to line up all night now get on the cue quick time look it's moving it's moving Come on. Now well it was. Richmond. You see with the bus cube flannelette. Classic comedy every day b.b.c. Radio 4 x. Just then on b.b.c. Sent. B.b.c. Radio 4. It's 7 o'clock Hello I'm stepsons and in this hour will join the award winning radio lab show about curiosity where sound illuminates ideas in the pantry split between science philosophy and human experience this week Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich will explore the benefits and costs of seeing a situation from a dump a site. And then Dr Adam Rutherford will deploy his knowledge of science and genetics as a weapon against ignorance and prejudice reading from his new book How to argue with a racist. First we had stateside to ask what's left when you're right in Radio Lab. Door listening to Radio Lab radio from the unit w n y c. And n p r. This is Andy Rowe go here. He's a t.v. Producer in London and in his office where we reached him he's got these very special metal balls this is the original prototype of the golden bowl is lovely and shiny it's very light it was the size of maybe an orange or a tennis ball in gold lace a very satisfying. Places and that is the sound of betrayal. Zandi has used these balls to bring out the worst in people to show how ugly and conniving we can be but also how wonderful and if you think you know a bad call back then you could win big. We're talking about a game show called of course Golden Bull and he was one of the executive producers did pretty well we were really really proud golden ran for 3 years in the u.k. Maybe 300 episodes in question space of time. 6 such fun and it is fun because in many ways it is just a normal game show but. I would argue there is more going on here in fact about to argue that because there is a moment in one of those 300 episodes one moment. That I just cannot shake. Because you remember the 1st time I showed you just this clip certain I was totally totally totally thrown by it because what's about to happen is that 2 guys with totally different moral philosophies are about to go yes some fascinating results and this story in fact inspired the whole show it did today 3 different smack downs all that somehow smack down not in the way that you would expect different people different dreams different worldviews. We're calling the show what's left when you're right. Which is a genius move here you'll find that out later it will ultimately make sense perfect sense I think for now can we get the gold balls happen and. All I can remember was that. All right so before we get to the moment that I want to talk about we kind of have to walk a few paces to sort of lay the foundation which is that we have to explain the rules of this game which are you cannot describe bulls in a sentence to anybody it makes no sense whatsoever but I will try and simplify so basically there are all these early rounds where people are mourning money losing money cheating each other lying strategizing voting one another off the show and the skip all that because it is in the last 5 minutes all hell breaks loose. I mean that classic shout at the telly moment we're sitting at home going. From pretty close to people believe it just did because basically the whole game culminates with a face off you know face a very straightforward choice 2 players sit on opposite sides of a table with this host between them yeah just for cameras moment when you get to this moment at the end of the game where there's 2 people facing each other in the spotlight it's all gone quiet. In the moment their hearts are racing because they've got to make this key choice which is not just about money it is a choice that will reveal who they really are not who you all are Ok what humanity's soul will be laid bare this may be true but why don't we just lay out the rules themselves Sorry carry away know those you know right so in the final round each of the contestants get 2 golden balls and they are the most important golden balls of the guy one ball says Split You each other golden ball with the word clipped written inside the other ball says Steele you both have a ball with the word steal written unsigned now split x. a You and I are playing right here. If I choose a split ball what I'm really saying is that this jackpot whatever it is say it's 3200 pounds sterling Ok You know I'm saying I want to split it with you let's just split in half 5050 even steven I'm a good guy now if you also choose split. Then we split it. Would. You get I get half everybody's happy the feeling of kind of joy that everybody had when it was split it was fantastic your both going home with 1600 pounds inc. Ok so that's one outcomes one of 4 outcomes I believe because obviously there are other ways this could go one or both of the contestants can choose Steve and what Steele basically says is forget sharing I want to take the whole thing for myself and if we both decide that if you both choose to steal pool we both screw each other and it cancels out you leave today's game with what you came with. Nothing nobody gets anything that stoically says nothing to greedy people deserve nothing nothing so if we both decided to split it is mutually good if we both decide to steal it is mutually bad you know where things get thorny is so you got a mismatch like one person choose a split the other person chooses steal now and that scenario the person who chose split the nice guy or gal gets nothing whereas the person who chose steal the conniving duplicitous bastard takes everything. So you use if you should steal and the other person is crime then Jew walk away with the money if the basic idea is that there is an incentive to share because if you split is what each person takes half but there is also an incentive to lie because if I can convince you to share the money and I turn around and shaft you well then I get more money that way. And the best part about this game for our purposes is that before the contestants make a choice Jasper the host gets them to talk to each other about what they're going to do before I ask you to choose I think you have some tool to do to reach out to watch this when you've got a young blonde girl facing off with a larger gentleman with a moustache older in the jackpot is 100000 pounds Stephen I just hope they let me down and there will be a whole new ingenue in the can this place I am going to split this up to. 50000. I'm just on its own little 50000. She's crying at this point she's kind of adorable I like her she's that good in this and if I still feel everything especially that we're going over to lynch me there is no way I'm going I mean everyone who knew me would just get disgusted because she has gripping his legs he's up to something I can look you in the. Night and saw you. Take a swig don't you I'll be going to split Ok. This is serious money. Steve choose either the split or the steel ball now. Hold it up. With 50. Moment of Truth. 7 he chose what she chose steal bud give the nice girl was there be a nice girl with a bad every time I see this eternally breaks my heart because a guy just falls under the desk he's got his head in his hands it's just the roid fever and I'm so sorry commiseration loss is just awful evil isn't that such a good little guy. And here's the thing if you analyze all the outcomes which social scientists have done what you see is that a majority of the time something like what I just showed you happens people get up there and they're like I swear. I am a good person said I come over and over they say I will I'm not the kind of person that's going to cheat you and then they'd do it. They stab me in the back into Grandma's policeman and here's my theory it's not that they're mean people it's that they don't want to be that guy slumped on the table they don't want to be the sucker the fear of being the sucker far overwhelms the desire to do good to their fellow contestant there's something wrong with this program. The obvious thing to do is to share you managed to wheedle your way into the approximate possession of a fortune and all you have to do is agree to split it what if you don't trust the person across the table from you what do you do if you don't want to be a sucker and you're not sure you can trust the person across the table. There's no good answer to that. But then. Eyes this Nic it is this brings us to the moment a question we ran into this guy is Nick Corrigan I work for Media Academy Cardiff based in Wales so Nick runs a not for profit in Wales and he loves game shows yes what was your 1st one when I was about 17 he was on a quiz show and I want to book Nick has since been on by his count 44 game shows this is like what he does and when he 1st encountered golden balls you know he noticed the same miserable pattern that we all know which is like the nice people get up there they say let's share and then every time they were just off to it but then Nick got an idea how did you get that idea I think I was probably. Swimming I got all my greatest ideas from the swimming when I go back to thaw actually because . I. So Nick makes it onto the show mix at the last round Welcome back to Golden Balls and he finds himself sitting across the table from a man named Ibrahim who 2 of them are a study in contrasts Nick is tall it's got really intense eyes feathered hair Ibraheem is short in bald looks kind of like a mini Telly Savalas Abraham and Nick you know face a very straightforward choice just for the host lays out the scenario that they're competing for 14000 pounds they have to decide to split or steal and now we get to the good part now keep in mind as you listen to this that almost 100 percent of the time what happens in this moment is one person looks the other and says I promise you I will choose the split ball we'll share it share together yeah that's what they say Nick takes a very different approach. I want you to trust me 100 percent I'm going to pick the steel ball so you're going to I'm the truth the steel ball you can take I want you to do split and I commerce you know I will split the money was here steal. Your. I'm going to take so you take the money and I was off the shelf Yeah I was there was all to panic in the studio because this whole idea was like I'm not going to pretend I'm not going to stay there I'll meet you on a corner after the television show you the half of it I go that's ridiculous all the research started running around going what's he doing can this be done it was panic. I promise you I'll do that if if you do still we both think I'm telling you 100. 10 and. We just both pick. I'm not going to pick I'm going to steal honestly wonder sometimes. Still no I'm honest and I'm going to tell you an honest that's one thing I'm going to steal if you do split them. Ok well I'm going to steal some going to believe in nothing. Friends coming from I. Can't work I know I'm a decent guy and I will spend the money with you but we should just know I'm going to steal this argument went on and on. The actual argument not the edited version online went for 45 minutes there was a name calling there were threads in over those 45 minutes there was an interesting shift in excess of the audience begin to turn on the audience behind were booing me which I get because as I was watching it I mean initially it seems like a really cool clever strategy but then you realize as he goes on that he's being kind of the nasty like he's not giving the other guy a choice he's actually kind of bullying him no matter what he said I was not budging from the fact and that my intransigence just go if you're it to Tim Did you ever actually like hate him or actually yes I did hate him yes yes yes I did this is a bream it was him who signed I am a market trader all work on flea markets in London he sells textiles are paid him off because you couldn't negotiate with him I was starting to him like if I give you my word that I'm going to really. Then I'm going to split I thought I'd give you my word now let me tell you what my word means Ok My father once said to me. A man who doesn't keep his word is not a man not worth nothing but wealth but no weapon. Sahiba how I'm going to steal it so you've got the choice. You are the stat was the point where I was like Nick give the guy a chance at least come on. I think. They want to wipe my money because you're an idiot for not going to do that. We could go on all night people going to get up for breakfast. I choose spittle still before they have to make their decision it seems that it caves maybe Nick warm down and he's like fine you choose steel to split hopefully you'll share the money Well I'll tell you Ok I'm done I promise you are. You cannot change a. Split. Deal. They both turn over their balls Ibrahim as we suspected Cho split art though I had no time to to you Nick. Also to split. Really soon as you mentioned he's received was. Thank you thank. The whole game he swore he was going to steal but then he ends up split do you think he was lying the whole time and always intended to share we could change his mind at the last 2nd whatever the case here's why his strategy was so brilliant shot of shocked I was taken aback when we asked Abraham like if Nick hadn't deployed that crazy strategy would you have still split because that's what you were saying to him the whole time that you're going to split it going to share the money would you still done it no no no I thought. I was always going to steal I was never gonna split never really never really I was never gonna split why why why the reason being if I split and the other guy steals I get nothing. All probably for us work wife nothing can someone what's the word embarrass me to a certain extent didn't want to be the sucker and then I asked him like What about that speech with your dad you know and so on that kind of got me my father once said to me. A man who doesn't work is not a man cannot and I cannot just jump in a backpack Yeah Mark bad. I never met him. Brought me up I mean more profit and loss. And I never ever met my father. So that you made that up. I'm afraid so you made that up yeah yeah. Never been a good boy. I think that is the real victory here like Nick got a guy who's never intending to share the money whose whole philosophy was like Don't trust anybody don't trust no one he got that guy to be good against as well and that guy thanks him for it he did calmly to certain extent but he conned me into 7 fires and paint. And Nick for his part is also grateful to have the money so he can give it to charity run the children's charity I do all the health the safety and all the fundraising because I connected in any way to your multiple periods on game shows yes it is your directly yes this it would be so surprising I feel because it's a very well Nick is doing his good works we will take a brief break be right back. Hey I'm Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich This is Radio Lab And today we have stories on confrontations faceoffs throwdowns this next story began when one of our former producers Lou Miller. Called me up and said let's just get the studio to talk you through something Ok so you just go yeah so you've been you've been so Ok honestly don't quite know we're doing I think you're going to tell me about something that you've been when you tell me about yes I wanted to quickly tell you what the idea is wall. While I truly like I'm still pretty darn confused by it Ok. Gotcha Ok so the end of it about my bike trip across the country. You say with a certain amount of sugar and I don't know I guess I just get embarrassed because it sounds like boring self-indulgent Now when I initially talked with Lulu. The she was planning to write a book about the story they're going to tell and I was really there to just help her sound out the ideas and we were going to use the recording as a transcript for her so she's doing you know we're just having a doing her a favor kind of but then when I heard the story I decided favor over. Make this a radio story because it's it's spooky and I think it also asks in its small way a really big question which is how do you do good in a world that. I feel like I went into the trip very confident about where I stood on people being really sure that inside everybody was like just another good soul you know everyone has quirks and takes that make them angry or noxious or conceited or depressed but that those takes are just kind of like a good soul trying to like claw its way yeah through the world and that strikes me is you one of your primary assumptions about the world just knowing that well well what past tense. Something changed on this trip Yeah there was a moment that. I did the bike trip with my friend Sue. As she explained it's an old friend they met in college and she says one of the 1st things she noticed about Sue was it she would say the most amazing things and for example she is Korean and she moved to the States when she was 12 speaks English perfectly no accent but every now and then she has like a language mash up that is so brilliant and she doesn't even notice it one was like I do I don't know I was just like running around and I was so crazy that I do the and I was like Oh crap that's not a word but I know exactly what you mean that's crazed and frazzled and actually that's a better word and then like you know I'm just I just want to like why is it when I get down I like to eat all this grab it I just don't understand like invented or like my dad is always worrying that I'm just always going to be took teasing around . And she meant traipsing richer v.z. Is a much better word like trippy thing is better than their old generation of like low life. Doing where trippy you think point is Lulu was drawn to sue they became great friends and part of that connection this is the key is that they were so different she's very different personality than I do whereas Lulu is kind of your classic optimist Sue She's a very grouchy I always like frustrated by people and she's really really smart social I go on the most wonderfully enjoyable rants about people so they decide to take this bike trip across the country they've actually done one before so they knew they could travel together they obviously knew they had this difference and personality in fact as they were biking in stopping all these little towns they would sort of joke about it she would always yell at me for being what she called an over engager which is like we ask for directions and then I'm like really old man now are you a farmer Oh you're a her how does affirming or oh you have and she's sitting there like she's a. The read the hows and 500 miles they go like so sort of charming they would tease one another but then they came to this moment where that difference between them stopped being charming and it got kind of dangerous basically a long story short few weeks of the trip lose front wheels busted and they roll into this town called Pittsburgh Kansas there is nobody there was like all death all it and hot but there was a bike shop so we went to the bike shop and the bike mechanic there Roger big bald guy was like well I don't have any wheels but I can buil