100 as England beat Pakistan in the 2nd one day international England's women this is England lead the series to nail Pakistan's men their fielding on day 2 against Sri Lanka 235345 The Sri Lankans there and David Warner couldn't follow up his huge back to back innings against Pakistan in the 1st Test match against New Zealand this morning worn out for 43 that matches live on 5 live Sport sex for the Aussies 122421 day one monosyllabic shine and Steve Smith about found beaten at the crease this is b.b.c. Radio 5 Live on digital b.b.c. Sound this small speaker is heading out the door thank you so much for stepping in always a joy to see I know you going to be doing some late nights on Radio 5 over the Christmas period including ringing in the New Year where you know the previews Yeah that will be. I can see a whole new tradition developing here is that by the way. You were saying you think it's a Northwest thing it's now being claimed by people in Yorkshire as Ok so my music is the whole it belongs to the North Sea If you're in Scotland to say thank you so much. I take it Nicky will be here tomorrow morning with a lie from 5 o'clock with your general election results a program so join us from then or if you prefer the phone it will be. Night for the joint 5 Live radio for overnight results program so you won't miss a thing here the next 24 hours and more will be talking about football finances next the weather 1st from silent. Spring its way eastward across the u.k. At the moment it's cold enough about to fall as snow just over the high ground of northern England over the Pentagon's north. To Scotland through today over the high ground that is for most of the brain moving eastward it's quite heavy at times across England and Wales. Start clear away from Wales in the southwest of England where that piece of showers. Moving in behind it quite blustery conditions across southern areas of England among some temperatures well on the chilly side of the routes 6 to 9 degrees Scotland of movement and you'll see some showers stay a mention over those we wintry over the higher ground much lighter winds that I approached Scott and compared to the last few days and temperatures of about $4.00 to $7.00 Celsius John what about the roads Michel the m 20 in Cannes westbound at junction 6 at night stand or a pallet continues to the carriage by 2 lanes are closed and it's causing long delays but past junction night for nights and services adding well over 45 minutes on the a journey them 62 eastbound at junction I want there's not been closing one lane and causing severe delays but past junctions 6 when it meets the empty 7 and the m 6 televised those northbound This is after junction $21.00 it will stand and act in closing one lame excuse but construction 20 at the lemon to change a full look at the travel at $930.00. 9 form a Welsh international rugby player God has told us this week for Sport Relief I'd be interested to transport in the famous sports personality of the Year trophy I'm attempting to psycho 500 grueling miles from last year's winner getting Tom's his hometown of college this year's awards in our bikini it's all for a great cause if you'd like to show your support and donate to the score to leave told the trophy challenge you can donate 5 pounds by text you would give to 70205 tax cos your donation plus your standard necklace matches charge on 100 percent your donation to go to school police you must be 16 or over and he just bill payers permission to me more information or to donate online to b.b.c. Dog code or to k. Forward slash Sport Relief good morning we're talking about football finances this morning thank you very much for all the messages that we've had so far and it's something that's close to the hearts of many of you if you follow a Championship club down in the leagues of football finances always a 30 per carry acing for clubs to have to deal with and the figures we've been looking out to. Hey a special 5 Live investigation. Projects show that they really are pretty dire for the Championship clubs I mean here's the kind of overall headline they are spending more than they're getting in that's what it boils down to Chris not to mention it well yeah the revenue we talked about this throughout the program 749000000 for the Championship clubs in the year from 2017 to 2018 that's actually up that's the highest ever revenue recorded by the division but overall wages exceeding clubs' revenue by 11 percent more than half of the $24.00 clubs spend more than they earn on players and staff wages down joins us here from Deloitte one of the companies that has been looking into this well and football finances for years and years is 20 is that you've been you personally have been lacking for 3 and 20 years you know my main never said that we were a very voice. I think I think it's probably about the best of luck wish for some really well look at it is genuinely you know this is the you know what keeps it's what fuels the whole industry it will fuel the clubs and allows them to operate it's absolutely crucial and they need to be run in a financially competent in order for them to ensure their survival but how although we talk about. Debts in kind of tens of millions of pounds over rule how precarious is this situation for these Championship clubs so the basic sort of overall picture of record revenues so 749000000 fantastic but spending more than you get in just on the wage bill so you've got a situation where 106 percent of the revenue goes out on the wage bill across the temperature the net result of all of that is the situation where the average club loses about 50000000 pounds a year now that is sustainable to a point when the point is how deep are the pockets of the benefits you've got behind given of course things can change in people's circumstances they may lose interest they may pass away they may have problems with their other businesses and that's when you get into a problem as a club if that sources. Funding dries up so the question is what's the role of the leak in legislating to try and prevent clubs getting into difficulty while the a.f.l. Say club owners a very well aware of the league's regulations they know the risks too to sustainability at the same time they have to be allowed the flexibility says the a.f.l. To succeed within those regulations and they say that it's shown that appropriate action will be taken against clubs who breach regulations it's also set up a working group of clubs to examine how sustainability can be maintained into the future I'm not going to ask you to name names but looking down the Championship clubs at the moment how many of them would you say their future is potentially at risk I think it depends on where you define a future potential risk so you know Barry going out to the lake was a massive shock to the system because that hadn't happened you know for a generation since since literally the time we did our 1st report back with my son so that was a massive shock and the fact that there's a couple other clubs in the 1st are looking very precarious as well sort of shows the level of crisis what you saw more commonly see is the clubs going some form and solvent see into ministration someone else comes in and tells them out there's a restructuring and the club continues but having taken a big financial shock along the way I think there are a number of clubs in the Championship where you know they look vulnerable whether that would actually go as far as the club actually completely disappearing that clearly is the nightmare scenario but I want to just come in I'll address this straight away unbelievable on the day of the election you're discussing football massive fail I've turned off we're not allowed to talk about politics today it's actually illegal if we date so that that want to head straight away and that's been the case for many many many years Chris is all football expert Don is all finance expert so if you have questions for them directly do get in touch 5 o 5 let's go to Richard not to my rich Oh you told me about you yes thank you so much for getting in touch you're a Birmingham City season ticket holder What are your concerns. Like you oh pretty much what you've been talking. Certainly all terminal over the Championship clubs almost all of us financial roller coaster season to season and exist kernel to get gambling to spend the Passover spend to get players and you can perhaps get to the Premier League and and then as you said if you try you'll then last wait. Wage boils on contract but also a possibility as happened to us last season sanctions we had a 9 point deduction we had a transparent ball. Which then exacerbates the situation even further said clubs are sort of fighting against. The files the regulations and that sort of trying to get into the Premier League where all the money is what will respond to some of that which I also want to bring in Catherine at this stage healthy sound Hi Catherine. I don't think it here is like I guess I could a brilliant how things are hull as far as you can sign and where I questioned Christian at the bit where and where not really there is a precarious kind of state where they were quite frankly by our elders. What we are spending on of when he claims a a lot of the tries to commit Well no wage cap so. They're not being paid for other astronomical face. You know our interests are taken steps to counteract a little crowds which is such a good price you try and bring in more and more people on a weekend so we're not kind of in a situation where we're kind of friendly at the club to China get it back into the Premier League can I think that that means you're less ambitious as a result. Perhaps there is a gathering restriction is going to set baby in the future they will or will invest got ultimately committed they want to sell the cloak and what they're saying is a prospective bias is that. Over that they would have to take all be paid to the owners and that it would be debt free that's kind of how they are selling so was coming in to take the club off them. But actually at other think that the should necessarily be spending a lot of money if you look at Sheffield United they didn't spend that much for the reason you know about that is pretty well in the Premier League the question as an example of the teams the. Sense of Place has spent quite wildly and a doing quite well this is so I don't necessarily think you need to spend to what. The president Catherine but you say that yourself and your fellow help fans a happy championship level sort of middling championship level but knowing that the club is floating along at a relatively sustainable level. I think after the few years that we've had I don't think they every fan wants to. Be trying at the highest level possible but we've kind of have had a few years it's been a year year pro going up and down going up and I'm not sure this is a massive. That that one people want us to go back into the Premier League a talking point we have that kind of. Before and I think as long as West able and think about it because 1st off the top end of the championship trying the players which is hopefully what within a season I think fans will be happy with. I think you know the situation with Hull is an interesting one because of that has been a lot of turbulence but in the last year that we got the numbers for they were one of only a couple of clubs in the Championship who made a profit by the operating pretax level so clearly has been trying to run in a sustainable way in the the point about Sheffield united again is well made one of the things about the championship that makes it such a great competition but so inferior out imagine for owners is that you don't really necessarily get what you pay for so the link between the wage bill and where you finish in the league is a lot weaker than it is in the Premier Lakes Sheff United have shown that you can go up without sort of spending a vast amount of money and going back to the original points around Birmingham and burning them situation and I guess that's a sort of classic example of the regulations being there to almost save the club from itself so the transfer embargo is quite a powerful tool to say look you are in financial difficulty and we will prevent you from getting into day financial difficulty because you won't be allowed to sign any more players so you do accept that mention. Yeah I do I suppose it's really just the fact that the situation exists in the 1st buy so there has to be that regulation so it's difficult once you know a package constantly is not a number to be here and the sitting there the way it is a basically punish kludges can be sort of arbitrary and not consistent but I understand why it's there but just going by what customers out I are talking a lot of fans that I speak to would love a couple of Satan's where nothing really happens off the pitch we just fight for all and sort of the troubling on the Submit at the top but the chance of getting up to the fires and it was just too much it just seems to off the field is often dramatic you know more years off the field than there is on the field and I think a lot of us are sort of fed up about that hopefully hopefully things possibly start to get there in a moment as a not to be sent them a type of mediocrity and so I'm sure. That here in Tatton thanks very much as well we want to say I know Rich was talking about he feels e.f.l. Rules are applied Albatros really the From that point of view say we are consistent about this and all the clubs know the rules they all know the sanctions that will be taken if they breach those rules that Sco to lease is in Alfredsson Hi Lisa Darby fan Hi I know he asked mode and we've also got Luke who's in Somerset is reading fan Hello Luke and Lisa start us off air how are things your cup of the moment where very You are looking to be fair to say we've got memories are oh no it was a wonderful and he's a fan as well as and I would never. Have been in the news a lot recently and I know bankruptcy Middlesborough thinks about it in. The ground of himself sent to speak was not right that moment is a very clever businessman and he wouldn't do something you know if it was totally illegal so we're very blessed We've got new investment coming on board sometime this month and that's really the so can be signed sealed the deal if it is worth $1300000000.00 pounds obviously to stay within the constraints of his pay I understand. Not. Enough to investment taking his time to get it because he wants the right person now still going to be Chairman thank goodness because I would hate him to walk away from the football club because he's been such wonderful known for is overseeing so he told looks very logical to be fair we just need to get we need to act on the field of play at the moment which is the best teacher strikes me being a football fan these days you have to be an accountant as well to follow all of this what about reading situation lake. Well every last couple of years we've got a quite year owners some of them better than others I quite like our current ones and normally during transfer window we're pretty quiet but this summer we actually spent quite a lot of money which is rare for us but iced ice think we are quite financially ran quite well but I actually think the whole issue is bigger than just the clubs I think it's that I was listening earlier and there was a thought of Huddersfield who came up with a partnership got 92000000 just finishing. And Leeds came 3rd in the Championship and their income was $41.00 so I think it's a bigger issue than 3 championship on the Premiership. Because that's just yeah that's just it's new you never You're always going to risk you're going to risk that 50000000 pounds for the chance to double your money just start our prize money ready and if you even if you come form as Luke reading have a history of when they were in the Premier League it was judgment day ski's money and now they're owned by Chinese organisations Die Young isn't is coming as the chairman of reading Yeah does that change at all the way that you look at the way that the club is run it doesn't matter that it's China but the fact that it's overseas money rather than a British owner trying to raise the profile and standing of a club that he grew up supporting I did definitely and it was almost a ski but he just couldn't do it anymore. He took because he loves the club he took the money I marry I think you large president talk about now what you are and some shares but not all of them not majority so he took the thing it didn't very personal reasons he sold the club so we could talk to keep going. And I think that that's a fairly common story I mean obviously what drama days he did for running as a club was was amazing in terms of the way he took it up the Premier League to build a new stadium you know there was a fantastic owner and benefits to that club and if you then find a nother good owner to take it on then that's clearly clearly great for that club and similar to the patron Darby really Mel Morris has done a done a fantastic job and put a lot of his money into it and you know hopefully the new owner will will will continue that on but the the problems come where you can't pass from one to the next only under circumstances change and also of course the effect on other clubs that if there are some clubs who are pushing things very very hard because it's such a competitive sport people feel that they also have to spend to try and keep up and it sort of pulls everyone along into this situation where you have average losses of 50000000 pounds Lisa just back to our original question is it worth it is it worth the risk battling to get into the Premier League spending the amount of money that seems perhaps necessary. You have to balance that risk with if you have over the years we've had transferring to spent a lot of money some of it's been wasted on plays out really obviously stood up to the challenge of risk is a risk worth taking I'm not sure because if you go Well yes and you come back down you've got the power should paint for a couple of seasons of Evan opinion that you know if your club is financially viable and you go get promoted you've got to go with the team that's good enough to stay up for all the right reasons we don't want to bring a Premier League I'd rather other club that was well Roland financially. You know not in the red and it's going to get a complete chump. I mean in the world it's the most competitive but I want to see my cooking a crime really course we do but I want to go well when the time's right when we can obviously compete and it's not going to bankrupt the globe across the dangerous very trees when these teams get promoted often they go up and as Lisa points out they aren't necessarily good enough so the chairman bite the bullet and say the manager has to go and then all of a sudden you've got a club that is completely different from the joy of winning every week in the Championship going to the Premier League not winning every week Darby I think years ago got relegated with the lowest ever point yes thanks for that remark sorry to say this guy is a footballer time ago but ultimately it's not only that one point. It's hard to forget but ultimately when the club gets relegated if they're not relegated in the correct way it's all been for nothing whereas Burnley when they came up they weren't good enough for the Premier League but they consolidated they kept the manager Sean died she took them down he brought them back up and now you look at them they've got a run in Europe Jason is joining us as well from Sheffield but is a Plymouth Argyle supporter that's a long way down to Home Park Jason. Yes sometimes you have long journeys during the Phase I can imagine if you're playing at all until you're Ok so how did you get famous at the moment. But I think. Enjoying the depth of lakes who are stuck in a stable down there having been through the pain of administration having points deduction multiple relegations almost going out with Foley but fortunately investors have come in for that money stabilize the club not spending huge amounts of money but the club is still there and they're investing in the ground so the new Grand Slam to have just opened. So surviving surviving well but not having the level of investment that gets us back up to the days when we were in the championship. Point perhaps overspending overinvesting to the point that led to the financial difficulties you seem to be fairly cynical about the capacity they felt to have to deal with this yeah I mean I. Feel for me like the a.f.l. Is allowing clubs to fight all. I think the statement you provided today from them and clubs knowing their responsibility. Pubs are bending the rules of the road stretching themselves. And then the a.f.l. Fight with ethical working great well with setting this up but clubs are being toiling for the last 20 years if that from a doesn't demonstrate the a.f.l. Is actually resolving this problem. I have some sympathy for the people running the f l And the reason for this that is that their members organization so it's their member clubs who have to vote on and the changes and therefore they can put for proposals about you know financial regulation and regulations to constrain things but the bizarre nature of the world of football is that in any other industry what the regulator is generally trying to do is to protect consumers keep prices down restrict profits and all those kind of things in football what the regulator is trying to do is to reduce losses so actually enable clubs to have a better financial performance and that is resisted by a number of clubs because a number of clubs say you know leave us alone is our business is our money and we will do as we see fit you know we bought into this club it's our business and that's what we're going to do so then we still need the idea that they were happy to see clubs failing that say absolutely I think you know that the experience of what the football league goes through in a club gets into difficulty particularly see what happened with with Barry and Bolton over the summer you know the idea that anybody at the Football League enjoyed that experience and was happy to see that happen thing you know you have to say that's just not the case is there still joy to be had from following a club like Plymouth Jason. Had a very good question. I think we did a question that every year when we bring you season tickets. For the a.f.l. I was not saying I enjoyed allowing clubs to file for. Craps review their name and talk about the overall governance of the football e the overall governance of the football age and maybe that's the club self-interest is allowing clubs to file so I think that something needs to change in that government to prevent illness overspending clubs. Allowing themselves to go into administration I mean close to every player must have all the same pay. Barry sounds good for your club. The local area so I was. Always down with the needy buy in from the clubs to make these kinds of rules effective Danny can I ask you all about salary caps and because Alan always saying they seem to have a sort of self-imposed white cap system there is that workable across the championship as a whole Luke Lee said What do you think about that I would like to say that because I think sometimes when a player comes in that's going to be on the decrease when I've got Wayne Rooney coming in in January I want to play he's going to a lot of money but next to that of paying some of his wages that's a kind of that's a weird one is now you constantly with numbers well if it comes in that says improve on the field of play but I think sometimes when a play comes in it can cause on rest in agreement so much even a way to cap the well devised you see the probably some of the range is ridiculous I cannot believe a human being's worth patient in like 250000 pounds a week it's ridiculous and why grassroots football is struggling in that series and why because expanding out of control I think you should have a wage Yes You know I I I agree I think all clubs should have a way stop well but I actually think you are you just video about I think it should be pretty much like I've gotten from merely And also but also if it's only the Premier League Mia Farrow the big players are only ever going to go to Rome which rates that's go so it's something that 35 percent of you just put a blanket wage so everyone down on a wage cap you mention that the Fed is a member organization members have to vote on any changes are assumed that would be the case with that it's been a case of turkeys voting for Christmas so it's an interesting one so that the order of salary cap been brought up a lot of times and I guess it's important to say what would and wouldn't be allowed so the idea of the old sort of maximum wage for an individual you can't you cannot do that that would legally fall of the very 1st time. Little bar you can't have a salary cap that goes across you know the competition so there is always cited the salary cap is impractical you can never make it work people would cheat etc etc But we've seen in rugby this year with what happened with Saracens that you know if you have a salary cap and it is rigorously enforced and rigorously policed then you know it can work so people make the system but as long as you back it up and then you catch them and you have your sanctions and so Saracens of chose not to appeal against the decision effectively held their hands up so so so you know you can you can make it work but it needs proper enforcement just out of interest and one of the numbers that gets bandied around a lot in football is the what percentage of revenue spending on wages and it's always been said that sort of 70 percent is kind of the warning level if you keep it down 70 percent then you're there or there abouts in the Championship if the clubs were to collectively get their wages down to 70 percent of their revenues that would save them about $270000000.00 pounds which would effectively pretty much wipe out the last I might actually put it that's of a massive benefit to the bigger clubs who have greater revenue so that's the thing is that the problem with that is that you have you got bigger revenues you can pay bigger wages therefore you should do better on the pitch the thing we have seen in the championship though over the years is that it's not as simple as the people with the biggest salaries are the ones who get promoted and finish top you get some weird results and the tramp ship with small payroll is doing very well and big payroll is doing very badly so yeah and somewhere a collective knowledge base of work Sunderland that played regularly getting more 30000 in league 3. And great crowds don't numbers don't necessarily mean. No not at all it's the changes to the profit sustainability rules brought in 2 or 3 years ago you know and so a change from being judged over the course of a season to have the course of 3. He seasons does that almost give clubs a bit of a backdoor way to say well we'll have a bandit year we'll go mad and then if it doesn't work we've got 2 seasons to get things back under control and there is there is definitely that risk and I think that the old sort of f.p. Rules which sort of followed on from your wife is only 50 rules are sort of have the sense that they might just be about starting to bite and we saw the cheap p.r. Case in the sanctioning q.p.r. . But then those rules with change and locks and that and they were changed and relaxed at the prompting of clubs because clubs wanted a more relaxed regime so again it comes back to that point of its members organization go balance what the members themselves want to do with what the overall governance is trying to achieve so it's a you know it is a tricky balance thank you so much Dan I don't know if you're sticking around for the next bit you are. Reassuring Dan joined us from Deloitte If you're just tuning in now one of the companies have been looking into the. Figures behind the Championship clubs which seems to suggest that they are in a pretty dire straits at the moment in fact we've heard from David Sharp formerly chairman of weekend here saying it's a bubble that's about to burst potentially back into the in the next few years I could see some Championship clubs ready perhaps fighting for their lives so we're investigating that with you this morning what's it like at your club wherever you are in the Football League and how much of a risk is it if you're constantly gunning for that promotion particularly from championship to Premier League is it actually worth the financial risk that that kind of undertaking requires 08590903 thank you to all our callers this half hour Richard Catherine and Luke and Lisa and Jason plenty more to come after the news and sport it's $933.00 on digital b.b.c. 7 must be. This is b.b.c. Radio 5 Live here is Allison with the news good morning a 5 Live investigation has found that more than half of the Championship clubs are living beyond their means partly because they're trying to. Into the Premier League clubs run up a record total of. 307000000 pounds and the 27002800 season voters are taking part in the 1st December general election in the u.k. Since 1923 polling stations are open in 650 constituencies until 10 o'clock tonight police in New Zealand say an operation planned for tomorrow to recover the bodies of those missing on line talent isn't without risk geologists say there's a 50 to 60 percent chance the volcano could develop to get and scientists think a painting found on the wall of a cave in Indonesia is 44000 years old the ant which appears to show a buffalo being hunted by other creatures could be the world's oldest recorded story that's unused his boat now with Chris the earliest drawing of the graph for shows a merino says he's taught them so I will be fit in the Champions League knockout stage once he has had time to get to know his players a bit better taught them went through as runners up in group b. Behind by Munich to beat them 31 last night by a father with a perfect record 6 from 6 Champions League win to Darren Fletcher reckons Marino will back him self against whoever Spurs are drawn against on Monday Jose Marion you'll find some self tell you are in a Champions League he's won it before he knows how to do it with until Milan famed in a way Porto also he'll relish a tie against some day there's loads more from Darren Fletcher and Pat Nevin in the football daily podcast on b.b.c. Sounds also in the Champions League draw Monday will be Manchester City scored a hat trick last night they beat. For one away Phil fired and got the other Gul Pep Guardiola group c. Winners complete the group stage on Beta now 4 was in a private league and competitions in weight in which conditions will arrive in February but hopefully we can arrive and in good spirit to to face the best teams in Europe so yeah so stay on with all through the lunchtime and afternoon on Monday we'll keep up to speed with that Champions League draw football tonight. Christiane or an elder last night angrily reacted as he was grabbed by a pitch invader at the end of eventis. By 11 Cuban pushed the fan away before security intervened he scored his 128th Champions League goal the former have assuming apart Nevin has backed his old club's decision to keep Duncan Ferguson in charge for Sunday's trip to Manchester United Ferguson beat Chelsea last weekend having stepped up from 1st team coach following the sacking of Marco Silva Yes. Rose used before the game. I mean the fines were incredible science but extraordinary he said and how quiet they had been in the weeks before that it was amazing they were the extra one that they needed on occasion but don't take away from the technical say he won the tactical say to that game as well so they'll be a Ferguson in the dugout at Old Trafford on Sunday we'll bring you that game live on 5 Live West Brom of move level on points with Leeds at the top of the Championship after drawing one want to Wigan while Katie McCabe scored a hat trick for Austin ill as they thrashed London b.s. In the Women's League Cup 9 nearly finished last night Austin's goal scoring record recently has been obscene England's women have taken a 2 nil lead over Pakistan in their one day international series they won this morning's match by 127 runs not 7 start for England with 100 off just 85 Bowl smallness lab a Shane is leading the way for Australia once again on day one of the 1st Test against New Zealand in Perth 65 knots out lab a Shane. 148 for 2 you can listen to commentary on 5 Live Sports Extra and Sri Lanka 263461 day 2 against Pakistan's men enroll Pindi is the 1st Test match played in Pakistan for a decade the forming of the Tac coach Scott wise mantle is joined Australia's backroom team wise mantle helped England reach the recent Rugby World Cup final he'll work under Dave Rennie the new boss and Tiger Woods us side trail for one to Ernie Els internationals after the opening day of the Presidents Cup golf. This is b.b.c. Radio 5 Live on digital b.b.c. Sound it's small speak my mind and it is of course polling day to day which means general election results day. The 1st results will start coming out close to midnight full coverage on 5 Live. Results. Sitting. Alongside. 5 and 5 Live. On air from 5 o'clock. Be With You The minute you wake up tomorrow morning bringing you up to date with everything you need to know. On the cool side continuing coverage and reaction to the results throughout the day on 5. Signs side yeah a lot of people may be Anthony Brown today because from heavy rain moving its way eastward across many parts of England and Wales the moment's notice that rain. Moved towards the east we're seeing a bit of snow falling in the moments across the higher ground of the North York more than up into Scotland a few showers which will wintry over the higher grounds now for England and Wales the rain is going to continue to spread eastward it with quite heavy at times but it will be something a bit drier maybe even a bit right across the southwest of England later on the softer noon but also see some pretty strong winds developing across the southern areas today temperatures will be up to about $7.00 to $10.00 degrees Celsius Scotland a lot of modern quite a few showers today I mentioned those are winter of the high part of Scotland but. That's when the showers. In the last few days for Scotland especially and temperatures of about 4 to 6 Celsius now through the mines and in through tomorrow morning we're going to see more showers. Moving its way into the northeast of Scotland that's going to continue into the afternoon showers then by the afternoon across North moderns north northwest England running their way into the Midlands if you brought to spells elsewhere and temperatures Smurfs. 6 through 7 or 8 Celsius thanks Simon Hauger 0 dollars and a bit busy this morning a couple of the worse things Greater Manchester on the m $58.00 traffic skewing there that's due to an earlier broken down by a call at Junction 26 but the m 6 at oral interchange congestion to junction 27 at Standish that's also causing queues along the m 6 southbound traffic used to exit at the junction in Cheshire on the m 62 eastbound long delays that that's due to an earlier accident at Junction 8 warning to Western Burswood congestion 2 junction 6 30 am 57 atomic Island and in Kent on the m 20 westbound 2 lanes a close long delays that traffics Cuba 9 miles and that's due to emergency repairs between junction 6 at Maidstone Bluebell Hill and junction 5 else that congestion is just before junction night the made sense services house and Hughes 5 Travel datable are now on b.b.c. Sound. It's time to put another guest from the world of music under the spotlight My guest is Frankie Travis musical things as we all do we all form words simplicity is actually a friend upon our going over using words what makes the hairs on your arms on the front row did I would be able to break 100 records but I know you do every move on top of my number so no spirals little wrong with a whole list of now b.b.c. Sounds good morning it's 940 well this morning on your call were asking if getting to the Premier League is such a massive financial risk is it worth it so we're looking at the finances of Championship clubs in particular it's been shown in the play a wages rising a causing them real problems former chairman of we're going to that expressions it's a bubble that's about to bust in the championship but we know that football finances right down through the leagues are in a pretty perilous state for some not all clubs of course Don joins us from Deloitte they've been looking at football finances for decades now Chris not to mishear Simon Stone's just joined us what is your title Simon who will you call Reporter who are about the 1st. Often as I said oh yes most only have so many big brains here in the studio big footballing brains big financial brains and we've got you as well our listeners and our supporters not to see the Sheffield Wednesday report of the athletic Hi Nancy I am we've got Nick in Bolton as well hi Nick actually right yeah I'm good thanks I want to pin like for you you. Are going to think what's going on with regards to Bolton and bury an older coach in the past would have been a massive benchmark for organizations like the fellow to draw a line in the sun to go listen would get it wrong you know you've announced today that you know hostage Championship clubs running out so last night we start was general business yes not sustainable you look at the likes of Bolton we had a benefactor in the light at the Davis I think you know at one point you also go into 99000000 you know it wasn't just a correct size it was sustained loss intimate loss of a 16 or 20 years of football and you look at the could be as a family I'm not an expert in football far from it I'm just a normal fun summer. And watch the game and you look at what's happened to Bolton and no one's paying attention no one is thinking along going hard about how we got position to chairs in the dream the a.f.l. What do you like and are most fans punishment organization by I'm not a custodian of the kind Ok list of strong statements so I am duty bound to read the f l and response to all of this they say championship revenues have risen for 5 years in a row rising player wages are a challenge acknowledged they say club owners a very well aware of the league's regulations they know the wrists to sustainability but at the same time they have to be allowed the flexibility to succeed within those regulations they say they've taken appropriate action when it's required for those clubs to breach regulations and I'm going to set up this working group. Cross that it will looking at and this is what's interesting to me as well cups I brought you out this enormous amount of debt but it's everyone else who kind of self hasn't got so something like 294 different credit is affected by these debts helped by your club including 6000 pounds and past days now I know that that's not the most typical or the doing right it plays a huge no one in fact isn't that the local the local businesses actually that's what I mean so you can kind of on the community state Boltons of a local community I mean it's people just search google already which one in 5 minutes from mine you're not actually going 60 let it cool you know what we can go and shares the dream of going straight bill you rather bold. You know occultist if she'll home close there's a net and the a.f.l. Don't appear to be taken into account to give us a minus 12. So the administration I understand we're not the 1st to go into it they don't wait 6 months to publish those are they not playing the game because we haven't played out played out players last season and decision don't cost the Rovers no wait where's a cloak made a decision to not play our young players that played $5.00 games and what they can 5 mill every single time because we only have 5 professional players and what you count there if you must protect your young players is a day to something when sales games where young players were absolutely out standard size no left side they played their socks off to play it's a project and unfortunately I think there's a lot of nationals in the game and. The a.f.l. Needs to be seen so if I'm not a small town just a punishment organization has to be seen to be accepting that let me bring in so I mean at this point and then I'll go back to non-sale. Well Bolton. I went to a lot of Bolton gangs from Selham some Aldous was the manager Phil Gartside was the chairman and he Davis was bankrolling the club they were beating Manchester United they were beating Liverpool they were qualified for Europe. The reason that Bolton got into the situation they did was effectively because Eddie Davis. Bankrolled the club amazingly wrote off this mama debt but then cut off funding and that meant almost from day one the debt was accruing in accruing the accruing and then they got ownership model and that's the way it goes but I don't know how you square the circle of funds who. Are Desperate see their team win that don't want to see their team you know that's part of Bolton's history that period of time when they were in the top 10 of the Premier League when they were playing in Europe when they were beating Liverpool when they were beating Arsenal but is part of the club's history and I don't think anyone at that point was turning round saying look this is beyond our means we need to stop they sweet should be half way down the Championship I don't know how you square that circle. Yes well bring in rules with regards to the financial structures and I'm not talking about people who are involved with these clubs vaulting It's like Christmas turkey for Christmas isn't it the fact is you need an a.f.l. Bought totally independent you need to be able to function called appropriately but also be there to nurture clips a bit to be in a position to support the clubs so that it doesn't feel like all the a.f.l. Are coming along they're just going to punish us and that's what it feels like when you know we have to be then Don Jones a complete restructuring of the way the league is run. I think he has passed this point I mean the events of Christmas now he's been used a couple of times but actually you know what you're looking at here is that of regulations to say lose less money you know to to help people to lose less money which is sort of the opposite of what you normally see in regulation I'm talking the caller was saying earlier that you know half the clubs in the Championship losing money and it's a lot worse than that half the championship are losing more than $10000000.00 pounds a year so the finances do need fundamental scrutiny and you know some form of reset but it does need the clubs to buy food for the reasons as I was talking about you know football fans naturally in a lot of owners are our football fans as well you know they want to win and they'll do whatever it takes and pull together whatever money they can find whatever source is to try and win and get as far as they can let me bring in Nancy from sticky she's been waiting on the line Hi Nancy so if it was a reporter for the athletic What's the situation in Sheffield once that my. I guess is a bit of a different situation maybe we talk about with both I mean once they chasing a dream and a lot of money on players a lot of money on wages so they all say the championship trying didn't in that sense but obviously they fell short they've reached a plateau Finally last and then the next year play out some time lost and I guess we've seen other clubs like Villa doing well once they've done the stadiums me access to and they've made out fairly. And kind of. The part of girls at the end of the rainbow so to speak. When they fall short that is now how they deal with. This kind of job with me as peon and now those charges by the well to do with the sale of pills per se is an interesting Manas that's kind of you've been saying about how do you view the f l you know a lot of the ones they are just seeing them as. An organization kind of. Punishing the club or enforcing rules on the club when obviously those do a lot more than just slap but that's how how they're being beautifully. Held for the moment. You know I just wonder if down the just the prize come at the price in the Premier League we've seen it's exponential growth over the past few years and as Nancy is talking about Sheffield United have kind of speculated to accumulate they gamble to try and get there and the rewards there are huge t.v. Incomes global reach international audiences everybody wants loss of that naturally those prices in all of the divisions below are going to have to go up that's exactly what's driving the behavior in Champ is the aspirations to get to the Premier League but that's why the championship needs to look at itself and how does it regulate itself and he can get very caught up in chasing the Premier League because we know there's a huge gap between the 2 so they are they are operating in fundamentally different markets you know they know a player who is capable of being bought by a Premier League club. Probably isn't the sort of player who Championship clubs should be spending to get because the stretch that they're making bring those those who plan is just too much what you were referring to earlier about you know sustainable ways of going up you know West Brom's that was cited classic model Burnley more recently of going up in a relatively measured way trying to do well in when you do go up and those clubs have a track record of years and good results move up but if they do go down it's not catastrophic and one of the things that Tony Pulis was on earlier was talking about was performance related pay and it's pretty battling as to why there are still clubs who do not have automatic laws in place Contras and says look if you're in the Premier League great this is your salary if you're in the championship not so great this is your salary because fundamentally for us as a club the revenues are completely it's crittur and and therefore the wages have to be completely different as well Mick Bolton fan if you are on the club's board and we're setting a long term agenda for the club would you say look forget about the dream let's just ensure that we have a football club I think if you are smart Bolton fans if you give us that question last year we just said give us a cloak and you look ask any parish what you think that they just want a corpse a poll and the success is it can't just be measured in get it's the Premiership the Premiership is the particle the end of the rainbow so the people on the top are going to take millions out the club that for a fountain you know I think I enjoyed in on it all the troubles also have had I enjoyed the 1st 5 games of this season more than others enjoyed watching Bolt for 10 years because it was young players on the pitch Game Day 5 nil book putting their heart and soul into football that the emphasis is money money money money money in football is ruining the beauty of the game and I understand it's a business model I understand as to this is Daniel pull nothing in place at the moment is making football system. Anabelle and unfortunately we have to let the door of the governing body that it's almost called it by the cult Well actually I don't I'd like to ask a couple quick questions on that because people are sent in Texas morning so some quick fire questions to Don and then we'll go to Caroline on Middlesbrough fan and this from broad a q.p.r. Fan can the panel update on the latest financial fair play rules and any changes in the pipeline for those and has anyone successfully challenged them on anti competitive regulations down. The the latest set of rules is understand it part of the surface of the review that's going on by the f l there hasn't been a competition challenge to them you know there's a financial fair play you a for there's the salary cap in rugby these are measures that have been shown to you know hold up challenge if they are necessary and proportionate to the health of the industry and I think that would be the test and you know it would be tested in a court but so far those rules hold up another one here no name but this one what can be done to make football club sustainable What about legislation to make owners personally liable for debts a sort of a special status company so that's an interesting question I mean these things that get talked about a lot in the owners and directors test get told I think football would say we have stricter provisions around who takes on our clubs than the law of the land requires And so unless someone changes the law of the land specifically to football clubs how are we supposed to do more you know we can't have a cut of your chip test I don't like the look of this person you know they've got no criminal offenses they got no reason on the law they should be allowed by the club but we just don't think they look quite right so well we'll show them the door not let them take over the club Let's bring in Carolina Middlesborough fan Paul as well as a full and fun morning both Ron and others here Caroline 1st of will back earlier this year Middlesborough reported pretax losses of about and 6 and a half 1000000 pounds but actually in the grand scheme of things that's not too bad . No it's not too bad really I mean Middlesbrough supporters. One of the best chairmans in football he's not only a fan he's an astute businessman and he has put a lot of money into this as it's been called gamble in getting the club back into the Premier League and fortunately for their Us reasons it's not worst However now we're going through what I call our own form of austerity because the parachute payments are finished and the purse strings are really being tightened as you pull on time said a few minutes ago actually it's in some ways it's been great the results have been quite poor this season and we've been struggling a bit but we're starting to see some of our own you local academy players coming through. That is sick you know we love to say that about apps that's one of the all sides but I certainly agree with what the true cost of said Chase in the Premier League where the Potters gold is you know the 100000000 will I believe look at this list of clubs I believe it will fund for more championships or so one of them is the concern and I'm not saying from clearly literally from Paul as well I mean you know and for film fans in recent. Well yes I mean this proverbial pulse of cold gold was because because we when it's time last season because the season was an unmitigated disaster we have the scenario of this the friends you can have a supermarket suite trying to assemble a side that could compete effectively in the Premiership and at the time is being lauded as a side that would more than hold its own but of course so the results on the pitch proved otherwise but people talk about you know is it worth it in a sense there is something I think you know top 20 full on and we probably all loved you know all these a list of sides coming down increasing the hallowed turf of Craven Cottage but my goodness there was a lot of pain that went with it so we're now back down into the Championship I don't know the extent so. The increased revenues of a season in the Premiership will counter the 100000000 pounds spent by Shanghai Shahid Khan or all Shahid Khan some. On place you know that that experience may have washed its face and of course he got the parachute payments as well but even now at the club the bill is so silent that for me is the club's right place and I think having said a lot of us a look probably look quite like to find out time try and build a side organically it is capable of actually performing in the prime huge Premiership rather than going off of this crock of gold but out yet north in an inordinate amount of time on that's exactly what's really Dobby Thomason. Yeah I did a story earlier this year when I spoke to a few Premier a few Championship clubs and they were of the view that some kind of breakaway some kind of Premier League 2 were some kind of alignment with the Premier League was the only way to close the gap between the Premier League in the Championship and unless you close that gap then you would always have this chasing the dream you mentioned earlier about players and why there's not a salary cap all in the Championship if one does not in salary if you go down to the Championship it's because when I didn't go to negotiate with clubs I say well he's going to cut my salary what are you going to do when the guy says Well monk salary and he signs the deal and that's the way it goes. I think for a lot of support certainly for them what we probably value more than anything else the moment is the commitment from a church and clearly Shahid Khan is a is a relatively wealthy man and of course he also has other other interests sporting So he is the only Jackson those charges in the u.s. And of course over time there is a strong sense that he would like to link his interests in Jacksonville China. With the full football club so in a sense that sounds that is the foundation for long term commitments and at the moment you can say to them like train culture the one part of the ground is being redeveloped this is I just want to finish with that we will not want to finish with a happy thought so to speak to Giles usable fine you've got 20 seconds to tell us the way to do it jobs Ok Look let me cost you about 10 years ago he would know money or players less. Interest all you have for you obviously couldn't take it so next level with loved you know skin like money into it look why did I need to get out of the any money. Neil Warnock's to me at Cardiff you start about the money to pay out money to put the players properly. Reciting the money wisely we've got a lot of money to spend or having a great season I get it for you I don't mean I just I said I'm going to have to leave it that's like you so much for God we got you and I thank you so much to Simon and Don and Chris here in the studio and all of you for calling us about tomorrow 5 like breakfast election results special from 5 am Try me to the next morning to morning Rachel thank you all so much we're going to continue that conversation I'm going to be speaking to the poor Carol Shanahan who says she understands how clubs get into such money problems. Clearly. One. Sees Radio 5 It's 10 o'clock this is quite recently 5 Live One might have seen the story about food package displays and whether they should include how much exercise a pest and would need to do to bend the calories that are contained in the. Products but could it be triggering especially to those with all recovering from eating disorder Christmas is a time of x.x. As we know with so much of the festivities revolving around food so I'm going to be speaking to Great British Bake Off finalists death Blackwell next how she is with Horizon eating disorder also between now and I'm going to be speaking to 2 been collectors from Seoul for people to leave present with that. Wraps until live it to children in need they said Christmas so let's make the most of this politics free day and we're going to celebrate calling this the next 3 Alice give me a call I wait I wait 59996 months 3 you can text me on 85858 with all stories of the kindness you've carried out. And witnessed on the b.b.c. Sound of 2020 nominations around steady x. Tips for success save the next year and we're going to go through who should.