I know you could be sitting with me now and we'll have a chat intimate. Course Johnson's won a majority in the commons so big that suddenly looks like he owns the place he can please himself and he asked Can we please the rest of us and for how they want to sound good on this pre-Christian see Sunday morning but how long before the promises start turning into excuses the chair with the Tory M.P.'s Grandy among grandees to Graham Brady to. Look forward to in the next hour and here with us through all of that is back political correspondent of The Guardian Heller Kate and I thank you for coming along and they bring back the political editor of The Sun on Sunday guys which you know Mark 8 Well I think in the last 24 hours or just you know bloodbath on social media particularly from met people in the Labor Party from m.p.c. Floss their seats from commentators and I just really felt that people needed to just get off Twitter just stop you know the hostility and the vice at any given Well exactly I mean it's just a bet to have it all out in public like this this continuing splits or bring back to the force of those arguments have existed within labor for the last few years basically between some groups of M.P.'s and commentators and activists and it's all Wally about how long Jeremy Coburn should stick around for shooting I mean. Should he have paid for flexion and exactly how long is shut that bay and what's it for you know he's the man sitting on your right shoulder to lend interest a 2nd a day was when you might I think I think Kate's right get off to a junior to Radio 5 Live. Make a cup it's a relax so we need to do 10 days to Christmas as a Christmas $41.00 shopping days to breakfast so we'll be watching what Boris Johnson does in the next few days we go in speech on Thursday will be able to focus on what he's going to do to try and cement his foretold in the in the labor heartlands of North would be very very interesting but. As Kate rightly says the focus is now switched massively on her labor because Labor needs to rebuild it's going be a long haul back to the top but there's a lot of work to do Q limitless community led Good morning good to see you didn't sit down hard to me Well you know obviously it was a devastating result is no doubt about that but David's right about one thing I don't often agree with them unless it's about Liverpool Football Club but it is going to be a long cold back and we do now have to kind of reflect on things using new leader and then move forward to why only your thoughts on all of these are commiserations and we'll just losing or losing dreadfully which of course Labor liberty must be a show you must have expected on polling night before that exit poll can flashing up on the screen you must be expected to be doing so much better yes I mean Labor's challenge of course was to break through Bracks Boris Johnson called the election on Bracks the media especially the right wing wing media wanted it to be about Bracks it Labor's challenge was to break through there and to talk about other issues and obviously we failed and we failed badly but you say it was all about break do you really think that's going to wash Len I mean this journey called in in in the Observer newspaper today saying the label won the argument you lost labor lost everything especially the argument and especially with working class a bitch will Labor voters people Labor policy exists to serve the only constituencies My biggest fear when fortunately came home to roost on Thursday night and not is that in our heartlands in the north and in Midlands in other places Labor fails to understand people's strength of feeling about breakfasts we voted for Bracks if we want Bracks is labor unfortunately was seen as a remain policy and we've seen. You seem you know you know and I know you know because I just know you know that it was about more than that and everything I heard from anyone who spends about what during this election in the labor side we're talking about divorce maybe in some cases smashed in their face but in others hearing that Jeremy Corbett he's not going to be my prime minister are people saying on labor I will not have that man and not just that when it came to the policies they were saying look it's not real it's just not real we don't think you're going to do it you lost every argument on every count absolutely disagree with that all of Labor's policy towards me that's what people were saying to me all the world all of Labor's policies were extremely popular the problem is that yes when they were put together there was a question of credulity could labor really deliver all of this and as regards Jeremy yet there's no doubt that it became an issue on the doorstep because of course for the last 4 years every single day has been attacked on Miss flee in a way that no politicians have by the media but Anita by the media of course by the Meteor I mean by some of the media you know the sun the Daily Mail and us Up Close which suggests that people can't think for themselves you go this is not a quite good Mauresmo if you're working on the bill on that John that's nonsense it's not about thinking for yourself it's about when every single day every single day there is vicious personal attacks and constant attacks on an individual eventually that seeks into the psyche of people I mean this is patronize it's people know it as if there's nothing that was going to is not seen patronize him 2 years ago Joel just over 2 years ago Jeremy Coburn took us within touching distance of power what is affectively happened is breakfast anybody who wants to look closely in an independent or not. Way will say that Labor Labor seats all the seats we lost I think with the exception of. 2 seats we're all leave seats because people you've done in the other city are you know up and down the clock as regards folks if you want to talk about Jeremy Coburn go and examine how many votes Cherubim coping go compared to at Miliband Gordon Brown one even Tony Blair literally right there maybe not of great value for that reason that I was an easy answer just referred to short time the other day and 1st person especially some of the dumb things you said already for Germany could not very labor after their money was a local m.p. But not on your life to one and while I clearly happened it's no use of running away from the clear journalist except just because he was a liability to labor What was the liability was Bracks the results a little bit was walking the journey it's the same thing they all they all linked together that leadership and Bracks it's all linked together and they both don't fully in our heartlands and then all metals it was something well fortunately I had been predicting inside the party that we're to take a close pull you reckon you reckon women German capital which will be a few weeks when we know of your bit of a wrangle to be had about precisely when but when he's Kerry if exaction itself will lift Labor's fortunes I think what will happen is there will be a new leader a fresh just one of the germy will be a good thing for labor it's not about a good thing for labor Jeremy Kovan has changed British politics forever he will go down in history as the man along with your Mark Donald who's changed British policy is to have a we will have a Labor party consistently now offering on all 10 assists at the daya austerity that the Tories have been paddling for years so the point is we will have a new leader we will have to regroup my message to the Labor Party members yes you'll be devastated this morning but remember why you joined the Labor Party. It is because we stand for fairness decency in justice. Is still needed right a question is was it's needed more than ever yes or no it's not this one put the question for you the let's call it a covert agent is not just a covert agenda is a socialist agenda that's been what it has been for a very long time before you marched nationalisation for example that must stay at 7 nights a revisit and hear that it's a radical alternate such to last to another John fer 1000000 of our kids go to school every morning hungry what's the prime minister and the Tories going to do about the 13000000 live below below the poverty line all manufacturing in the street desperately needs investments or public services housing the crisis we're stepping over people on our streets let's see what the prime ministers about that what Jeremy Coburn and John McDonald It was off an old senator and lay back in my opinion will continue to offer Daryl Synods of how many times did we hear private Soko been on the doorsteps they're all the same you can't distinguish between the parties they're all in it for themselves they're all the same you want hair then anymore because British politics has changed young people are engaging mention homelessness you mention schools and funding hospitals of the fun in your unfortunate people disagree with those things that exacerbate how you deal with of course it is about making certain that the rich to see a rich pay their taxes the corporate elites pay their taxes the same as ordinary working people people did it simple making certain that the wealth that we created on nations that where can people get a fair share of the rather than it being sucked away into the Cayman Islands and that's the big picture Ali wouldn't do it clearly enough people your point of view but the argument you could fund your massive raft of policies you describe them as a kind of incontinence a Martian policies from them by hitting a few billionaires over them on a budget so. Confederations it was one of the little yes it's not a few 1000000000 and and the independence Escobar G.'s tell us that the Treasury loses $40000000000.00 pounds a year through tax avoidance the only labor that ever to look about doing so also learned nothing so you think it's fair to say that my reading you correctly the really should label when Germany has gone you should stick to the hyperbole under under Jimmy cauldron of nationalizing the uterus you should stick to that but also stick to the present spending and tax policies that were in that great book of the manifest they stick to that says sadly stick to making certain that the corporate elites and the super rich pay their fair share of taxes remember corporation tax that Labor were offering would have raised $23000000000.00 pounds a year so now it's pretty straight not one on the tax I'm going with chance they would answer John John $23000000000.00 pounds a year and it would have been the same corporation tax levels that these these companies pay in the rest of Europe so yes $1.00 of the of course we made mistakes I said that in my article and the we had too many policies we should have Follow me a policy mistake we should have focused No no I'm not going to pick a specific you can't say that I can't means I join but given beyond zone I can say what I want to reality is that the reality is that we should have priority as priorities and constantly sits on specific issues and they're the type of things now we're going to have to reflect what might you be concentrating on that you'll be better off not your concentration we we will now reflect on those issues and starts to listen to what people are saying to us because sadly in our heart once and we shouldn't take anything for granted we can't take for granted that people are going to come back to Labor we did long enough in Scotland and look where that is we have to make so we listen and we make certain that we reflect and then continue to pull forward policies that ordinary Where can people. Needs to change their lives I'm sure from here you say you need to change anything apart from the leader who's off anyway I'm saying that we need to reflect but the policies of the socialist old Senate of a radical old Senate the are all popular we need some makes we can sing you're looking at me strangely if I have to say very popular sort of policy what a result if I have to say this a 1000 times I will to Breck's it was the reason for this defeat and I've been suggesting she that the evidence is absolutely contrary evidence is staring you in the face John every single seat that Labor Lost was a leave seat you must be spoken we're going real ground here in the space of 10 minutes but you respect people that it was that they would have been telling you that it was about more than bricks that they would be selling you the journey called members yes and yet you say there was a was just about Brother I'm saying the pope both of them are linked the reality is that when there is an issue like breakfast which Labor unfortunately didn't get its policy and its ideas the roots of people it's linked with the with the leadership so yes of course that was an issue on the doorstep and I'm not denying that well reflecting on where we are you'd be better off with a new leader like it or not you will be better off you say well we will be having Can you lead to John we will be having the lead but John Mark Donaldson and Jeremy Kovan should be proud of the fact that 4 years ago they changed British politics and it will never go back we'll always have a radical alternative in mind so many will be a suitable leader to carry on keeping the socialist torch flying let's just pick a couple names at random kissed Omma How different is your Leslie Well I think to be honest with you there are a number. You'd be happy with there are a number of good candidates and I think we'll wait to see who's putting their name forward I don't know of events or hear of putting their names forward. Little bit of a head I guess and I guess I made I use commas for example I think there's I think there's lots of names you could talk you'd rather bang your head against the red move or have their lines not true that pokes very very good politicians a lot there's lots of other names specky long Bailey hunch a little rain you know there's a whole host of individuals who will be considered Phillida if they want so you're sort of carrying the tradition you've been the skull I've only known I believe that the values of what Labor stands for yeah all the ones that we should continue with they're the ones that have made us the largest political party in Europe they're the ones that have attracted young people the future of our nation as young people they flocked to labor she was a socialist a pureblood social I want to radical all sensitive to the misery that has been caused for 10 years by a Tory government and I want to see what Boris Johnson now there is the great hair all of the working class to listen to what is he going to do about all of the ills that he's been part of for the last 10 years is brilliant trade and. Ok Fred well you can and said the practical I say am in part came about because if because it's what the members wanted and you had their process set and conference by the members passed nations that when suggesting a 2nd referendum public 5 is a good idea so Labor's all about listening to the members how do you square that how do you square with them what the members one on back say with what devices that was Jeremy Covance incredible dial m. 158 Labor M.P.'s who come from leave seats 100 Labor M.P.'s who come from remain seats the vast majority of Labor Party members who believe in remain and the vast majority of our working class folks who voted leave that was the terrible dilemma that Jeremy how to deal with and unfortunately the voice in the power of the remain vote the 2nd voters and it can't be dismissed as a 1000000 people on the streets etc was powerful enough to move fully back into the position that they were in remember just over 2 years ago we came within touching distance of power on the platform that we would respect the 2016 referendum and we would take the u.k. Out of the European Union now unfortunately we didn't bells on all humans and there were those of us who were saying yes we have to keep the party together we have to respond to our Labor Party members but you need to understand the consequences of this in all leave seats we are in serious trouble unless we can break through the argument that's Bracks it and she's somebody some hurt labor at the symbolism and the perception that Labor was tolerating or harboring and she and she shall March and that was not to put it mildly that was not handled well by the Labor leadership by Jeremy Coburn and those around him I don't agree with that I mean we really. Would you describe as a problem or no no it's clearly a problem the bar I don't agree with you saying that it wasn't handled well by Jeremy coop and Jeremy Kovan initially asked Shami Chakrabarti someone who is highly respected to produce a report which he did unfortunately the the general secretary of the Labor Party at the time didn't implement that report we have to wait for Jenny Formby to be put into place there's all kinds of things that are Jewish there is rich as you were previously Labor supporters turn their backs you know they're all in an enormous number and that's and that's deeply regrettable and we have to win their trust back because let me say this the idea that the Labor Party is institutionally anti sematic is absolutely not true but we do have to she disagrees with that and I disagree with the Chief Rabbi So there we go we have to kick Alex every Semite that there is in the Labor Party are force against it all my life to blame Jeremy Coburn for that was just deeply deeply unfair this man has fought against anti semitism all these like but yes it was an issue and it played into the media remnants that Jeremy wasn't a strong leader which undoubtedly got through into some people's minds of everything yeah I agree with so a lot of what you say about the game it's just twice today. It's quiet and usual and what you say it was an issue there was no clear message and people were confused and people want to Bracks that voted for it 3 times now in elections and I think that's that was a big problem and also the leadership yes I'm that was partly connected with Bracks it people didn't like Jeremy Corbyn they had too much baggage they felt but so that was a toxic mix to the you're right but I think there's a 3rd ingredients and that was the the heavy left wing policies you know these have been a Jew rejecting over a generation several times 983 Michael forth the longest sewage. Side note in history Neil Kinnock tried slightly softer left but still left wing policies twice and Ed Miliband is recently is 2015 and they've been rejected what makes you think moving further to the left will attract more voters when it clearly doesn't Well David you know you don't surprise me that the song disagrees with a radical old senate other fellow likely Lotusphere So what we what we have by saying that the policies that Labor forward. Nor acceptable what your arguing for is the status quo I've already sent 4000000 of our young kids going to school hungry every day you proud of that because I suspect soon readers on proud of it a teacher's happened to back the. Contributions to buy pencils and pants this is this is 21st century Britain the 5th richest nation in the world which has been appallingly handled by a Tory government to tend to austerity that is had people Labor had support forward and all sense of it almost took us to power in 2017 we lost this one because of Bracks and we'll have to live in the lessons and 5 years from now we'll have to build on the popularity listening to all parts of our party with the fantastic membership We've got my message to them is stay with Labor the war of values that we stand for a desperately needed now more than ever finally you know where they are just on that last point just for the sake of clarity of the images are reasonably clear it should be just for the sake of clarity for pretty for the sake of argument your pitch in this ele