Extra. Be safe. From 51 of the b.b.c. News culture joke richer they may need to find charges brought Saverin allegedly plots to kill the prime minister I mean sport Chelsea are looking at a tough Champions League draw after dropping vital points in their group. 2 men have been charged with preparing acts of terrorism her ported Li in connection with an alleged plot to assassinate 2 reason many. In the Roman and Mohammad to keep Iran knowledge you in court later. Where she has been banned from next year's Winter Olympics investigation found evidence of state sponsored doping and massive cheating at the Sochi Winter Games in 2014 which we should deny its athletes who can prevail claim will be allowed to compete in South Korea under neutral flag is not both edited down Rohan it's a sanction a punishment without precedent in the history of the Olympic movement for a country as important as Russia sporting superpower let's not forget that the hosts of the World Cup next year and I left to be barred from the Winter Olympics which start of course in just $65.00 days time in South Korea and put on trial and has never happened before an independent investigation found security services that missed opportunities to stop the Manchester Boman Salmond about a day before the attack he was a subject of interest to m I 5. The Briggs's Secretary David Davis insists the government is close to reaching the end of the 1st phase of talks with the e.u. a Deal was close to being agreed to put a wrote down after the d u p rejected a proposal for the Irish border Labor says it's an embarrassment political correspondent. Series maybe you could say is having a bit of a nightmare start to the week The problem is Can she fix it and I think really nobody knows the answer we had expected to resume may and foster the leader of the d p to talk today that hasn't happened. On his plans to move the u.s. Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem in a speech later he's already told several Arab leaders of his intention the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas says it's a dangerous decision that will undermine the Middle East peace process. A fast moving wildfire is threatening 3 cities in Southern California with thousands of people have had to leave their homes is the Monday in is being driven by strong winds the fire chief Aventura county's Mont the wrens and we have over $500.00 firefighting personnel and I'm on the fire is pushing quickly towards the city of Ventura we are making sure we are out ahead of the fire we're basically leapfrogging our engines doing structure defense as a fire precedes a joint b.b.c. Investigation is concluded children should be given lessons in how to recognize fake news research carried out with Sylphide University found Gen people in England Scotland and Wales struggle to tell the difference between fact and fiction on social media best Hewitt's behind the research children to discuss the need to feel the working within a safe environment they actually need to know why and how they can avoid the pitfalls critical it teaches and parents who are actually understands the nuances of news and what's real and was fake. A fragment of bones thought to be from St Nicholas has been radiocarbon tested by the University of Oxford it found the relic does date back to the 4th century when he left school at. Chelsea face a tough draw in the last 16 of the Champions League after being held to a 11 draw at home by Athletico Madrid the blues finished 2nd to Roma in their group meaning there's a strong chance they'll get either power or Barcelona in the last 16 as it stands but are their only other possible opponents elsewhere Romelu Lukaku scored only his 2nd goal in 13 games as Manchester United for back to beat c.s.k. Moscow 21 united go through top of their group Celtic were beaten one nil by under lax but have made the Europa League last 32 England will shortly resume their quest for an unlikely victory in the 2nd Ashes Test the tourists need another $178.00 runs on the final day in Adelaide they have 6 wickets in hand test my special begins on 5 lives balls extra at 3 15 am and former champion Sean Murphy is among the 3rd round winners of the u.k. Snooker Championship in York he'll play Ricky Walden next Barry Hawkins was knocked out by Thailand's at Sunny a county this is b.b.c. 5 live on digital on was smartphone and tablet look at the weather now it'll stay cloudy and breezy from ISIS the night with laser 8 degrees in London a bit and tomorrow we went in the north and west and dry in the south and east on b.b.c. One watch the situation pleased female mage 30 some blunt trauma to the chest I get scrubbed increase a lot and we have to stabilise to be I don't want to sound now please pass 150 b.p. 85 systolic pressure for like we have stabilized the b.p. Pressure is holding its sleeve for. When darkness falls to the light find something to enjoy a bit Ok everybody said this is the only roll of the dice we have and the. Sajan comes to holding the heart stopping teapots special continues tonight to take something you see one. Week. On the am and f.m. Ally in the u.k. On digital and online and Roger Sharpe I'm up all night. Well with say America's new stance in the world or perhaps towards the world. Its former friends and its current friends are having to do a lot of hard thinking. For examples having to think about its position in the world and of course geographically it can hardly a fight China has never been able to avoid Chinese vestment and Chinese politics have intruded on to Australian ones we'll tell you about that in about half an hour and before that we're going to take a look. A member of President chumps as well for good you might say who's making waves in this. Trumps us really. All over Britain it's 5 past to 5 past 9 in Vidalia Georgia home of the Vidalia onion which is so sweet that it can be eaten like an apple the daily is also thought by many locals to be a regular stop over on you for 2 hours of our planet 5 prostate at a small and bull hold store in marker 8 miles out of Gibson Louisiana on Highway $154.00 plenty of people still stop here to say they stood on the spot where Bonnie and Clyde were gunned down 5 by 7 roughly halfway between large Bergen deeming New Mexico Bolen's trading post sits on the continental divide and sells almost anything at 5 past 6 on a dripping trail leading to the gold bluffs beach campground in the far north of California from somewhere in a mic stand of redwoods and Sitka spruce is a huge noise as an else. An elk comes crashing over the treadmill and is gone our news comes from c.b.s. . As Southern California wildfires keep moving Residents are warned to be ready to go. Russia's doping scandal from the last Winter Games cost that country with the next games coming up the Russian Olympic Committee is suspended and this is the c.b.s. World news round up late edition I'm Dave barite. In southern California this led to this that are not doing their duty but. Wildfires are burning a big one in Ventura County has charred at least 150 structures very dangerous I've been apartment for 25 years and I've never seen anything like this before and next is Karen Adams is in Ventura County northwest of l.a. More than 50000 acres burned in this Thomas fire and the devastation is real the very large home here on foot hill road fire crews just couldn't say that the homeowners watched as they weren't able to get everything just grab stuff and Ram I have pictures of my $0.02 on santas lap since their babies and they're now $46.44 to the winds with gusts of up to 70 miles an hour at times are limiting crews to the ground to attack this monster fire which has now prompted the governor to declare a state of emergency there Creek wildfire north of l.a. Has grown to 11000 acres again pushed by Santa Ana winds don't look for the red white and blue flag of Russia at the Winter Games in February in South Korea for a 2014 doping scandal in Sochi Russia has been kicked out of the upcoming Olympics i.o.c. President Thomas Bach This decision should draw a line under this at them a chink episode and serve as a catalyst for a more effective and more robust anti-doping system Olympic historian David Wallechinsky if the Internet. Well look it's maybe hadn't banned Russia suspended Russia it would have been a message that you can get away with but Thomas Bach said there is a way for Russian Olympians to compete in a couple of months in righted Astley so will participate be it individual or team competitions under the name Olympic athlete from Russia today in the Senate the $62.00 the nays are $37.00 and the nominations confirm deputy White House chief of staff Kirsten Nielsen will be the secretary of Homeland Security 88 year old Congressman John Conyers accused of sexual misconduct with staffers this morning he was on the radio in Detroit telling host Mildred Gaddis hammer in. Michigan Governor Rick Snyder a Republican will review dates for a special election now the legacy of John Conyers political consultant Leonard Stein has advanced civil rights yes he's advanced women's rights but at the same time he's tarnished his own legacy by undermining that with his personal behavior toward women on Wall Street the Dow lost one o 9 yes and he was down 9 Nasdaq fell 13 President Trump speaks tomorrow on the status of the u.s. Embassy in Israel White House correspondent Stephen Portnoy u.s. Law dating back to the Clinton era requires the president to the side every 6 months whether it's in the nation's interest to keep the American embassy in Tel Aviv as opposed to the contested city of Jerusalem the president is expected to declare that in the eyes of the u.s. Jerusalem is Israel's capital but he's also expected to leave the embassy where it is for now the impending announcement has sparked Palestinian calls for a day of rage and sparked a formal warning to u.s. Citizens from the State Department Jerusalem c.b.s. Is Robert Berger says this is not going over well with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas Abbas's spokesman said he appealed to the pope and the leaders of Russia France and Jordan to intervene in a phone call Abbas told Mr Trump that the move could destroy the peace process and lead to regional violence and instability. It may not be totally clear that men are from Mars and Women Are From Venus but we do look at each other in different ways Jim Taylor says a fresh set of data is out on that survey says most of us think men feel pressure to protect and provide similar number think women feel pressure to be attractive 71 percent said that Kim Parker Pew Research older women are much more likely to describe themselves as very men and millennial women really don't embrace that label and why is that for millennial women the world looks a little bit differently and maybe they don't identify as much with a concept of being very feminine when it comes to nature versus nurture the survey says we're pretty split on what drives all these pressures Jim Taylor c.b.s. News though former President Obama did have 3 of the top 10 re tweets this year the number one guy and re tweeting is Carter Wilkinson who craves chicken nuggets with this help me please man needs his nuggets that's the world news round up for Tuesday December 5th I'm Dave Barrett c.b.s. News well let's head over to said NATO a say so Master joins us Hello fellow yes morning to you wrote My indeed morning morning from here I trust the weather is so getting nice for everybody who's heading your way for Christmas. Yes And I think everyone is crossing their fingers that there will be no more rain delays in Adelaide Once upon a time I imagine England fans right across Australia and beyond the shores were praying that there'd be rain interruptions but I think given the performance of England on day 4 we're hoping that the skies stay clear in Adelaide that will assist England's batsman Joe Root in particular to haul in that target and it will be his story opportunity and as you mentioned having family and friends gravitating to this part of the world at this time of the year there is this eternal hope that Come Boxing Day in the Melbourne Test and in early January the Sydney Test that the series is still alive in many series in bygone years Rob the Sydney Test has been a bit of a dead rubber so we're certainly for friends of mine coming in to eastern Australia they're hoping that there will be some competitive cricket to be had on that 5th Test that starts in early January here well as let's give our fingers crossed because it's only really a no or isn't it before players due to start at the Adelaide Oval. That's right it's a day night tests so the start of plays delayed as compared to previous years interesting to listen to the a.b.c. Radio commentary team in the car and how they have pain getting into all sorts of problems road trying to get their body clocks to get ready for the meal intervals Is it lunch is it Tea is it dinner. I think this experiment has been good given that I think there's been a record breaking crowd or close to it at the Adelaide Oval as well one. Well in the 1st half of the show we're going to talk about a big Donald Trump. Who has made it through Australia and as well we're talking about the reception that he's getting because he's been credibly controversial in the United States yes our 1st guest Rod has described the British born right wing commentator Milo you know police as the court jester in the court of Donald Trump now Milo you know Apple OS is on a speaking tour in Australia cause done rest in it engagement in Melbourne he was invited to speak at Parliament House in Camber and to unpick this visit we're joined by Vincent O'Donnell Vincent is from the School of Media and Communication at our mit University in Melbourne thanks very much for joining us today. My pleasure what so what's your initial take on Milo up a lot given that he has caused so much controversy in other parts of the world he's on Australian soil What do you make of what you've seen and heard about him so far . I think most people in Australia have only heard of him because of the media coverage associated with his events he's had gigs in Adelaide and Perth which seemed to attract almost no attention certainly they got no coverage in the eastern states and it was only a confrontation between a fairly large contingent of leftwing protestors and a much smaller continue the right wing protesters outside a venue in Melbourne on Monday night that caused any controversy and that venue incidentally is more used to kick boxing and weddings than it is to political showdown the camber of course in Parliament House calls it a controversy and the press conference press conference rather that followed suggested that Mr you Novelis was not really Cain on having his ideas challenge by journalists and he has a gig up in Sydney. Last night and tonight and then moves on to Queensland to the Gold Coast and then he moves on elsewhere on what he is turning his troll academy to. So not a lot of public for outside the events themselves and certainly none substantial discussion about the ideas that he is trying to promote. Now he was invited to Parliament House in Canberra by the liberal Democratic Senate David line helm who is known for his controversial views not quite as controversial as Milo Yampa last but David line helm did say that this man has an ability to outrage what he called silly people the Greens and lefties and the senator was saying that that was sufficient enough reason to hear from him the a.b.c. However said that this was a Parliament House troublemaking mixed with a dose of theatre a lot of ruckus and not a lot of consequence do you think this speaking to all Vincent really is the work of a man who speaks very very loudly and peppers his addresses with unpleasant anecdotes and unpleasant observations but really doesn't actually add to anything in terms of the political discourse. I think he had very very little to the political discourse because essentially he is mining they and naturalizing the prejudices of people he's saying it's Ok to talk about these things that we generally as a community have decided to live with without getting too much upset about but deep deep under the Delta for me is I cannot judge and I'm not interviewed him and I'm relying only on press reports what I read and particularly on his social media output I cannot cannot work out whether he is a consummate performer and he is certainly very bright very sharp and very engaging I cannot work out whether he is the consummate performer who's discovered for himself to terrific audiences one with whom he engages the right wing the. All right as they called him United States and the other who here in enrages that is the left so is he a performer who has found a role and he's grown into this role of really putting on performances to engage in range or is he emblematic of a certain line of political thinking which has become more prominent particularly in the United States over the last half decade and of course was part of the forces which brought President Trump to the White House now frankly I can't decide between those 2 and the 1st position is partly supported by the nature of this 2 and the nature of his his previous The danger faggot in the United States they have the trappings of a pop star to you 1st of all find a name which is going to be catchy and in the case of those 22 and I'm their names that if I can certain. Demagoguery rather than the style general romance or cultural authority which a pop star to is tend to do and then you you keep creating. Character and certainly opposite has created this visual character the websites of fall in the press years from time to time beautifully stage photographs of him which really emphasize his pop star qualities he's a Hollywood attractiveness and he has an outfit for every occasion the peers and not only an outfit but he has. Sunglasses that match that occasion been back through the press coverage and apart from the fact that he was watching muslin shirts I think they are which are always open down to the bottom of the sternum he has costumes for every occasion so in that sense he has a highly curated image the type of curation that you associate with pop stars and so forth on the other hand he is appealing to a very small minority in the community who hold these positions and he is amusing them and entertaining them by being outrageous and as I said mining latent or present prejudices and confirming their validity to his narrow audience and naturalizing them within the political discourse so I'm afraid I am I cannot decide between those 2 positions I'm afraid I often casually have thought of him as a kind of 21st century Solis had a son which a British audiences might remember is a creation of Barry Humphries a cultural ambassador to the quarters and James except the character is amped up to meet the chaos of politics in the us today so I'm afraid I can't decide between my positions or Vincent Hodes rod here hello again. Now listen I mean what is the correct response and I mean if you say you're divided about your positions but if you fall on the ridiculous side. You just make fun of them and ignore. Is that the essence of free speech here. I think free speech is a total It's been invoked in this particular circumstance ignoring the fact that there with freedom comes responsibility is. But I think that if you oppose a person if you don't like this to a person's point of view getting out on the street and demonstrating and creating the public which data slee is planned into the media presence the the media campaigning to promote a tool like this is exactly the wrong thing to do I think we hope their democracy we have confidence or should have but Adam ocracy is robust enough to let people like that. Have their say and then get sure got him in a way you know you might think for example of people like David Irving who for 20 years made a career out of deny my Holocaust when after that 2 $1002.00 court case in the u.k. Which he took out against and it was Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books. Who accused him of you know not really believing his material but doing it for the purposes of a commercial exploitation. After that court case. Irving has almost disappeared from the political landscape of the Holocaust matters so with a character like this I think if you believe in democracy and you don't want to. Prevent these people speaking because they do in some respects represent lightning rods for discontent within communities you let them speak and you counter their arguments and occasionally satirize them and they will trade from side. So you and for a different sense of humor too from Americans much more aware of irony and things like that. You get from their great cultural baggage with with the English but. There's that to enable people to treat him as a kind of Sasha Baron Cohen rather than. You know the serious agitator which he was very much protected pro-trade in the American media. I think it would be a danger to regard him as a special kind simply because they content of his his a performances is highly political and it's highly charged and that he's attracting audiences he attracts them here overseas I believe he set up a new new initiative in United States to promote both his interests and also those of like minded people means that he must be considered within a political context and he must be taken into account there because when people respond to those types of his years in the media or else or in the presence of a performance it does indicate that there is concern for those his years his total attendance by the way his trade is likely to be about $14000.00 all up and that's still a very very small percentage of the population so that a wise politician will be listening to what is happening in this area and I seeking to counter it but also thinking how are these issues which are going to become more and more important to a community and what we're seeing I think throughout western societies is an increasing division of the community of balkanize Asian and atomization if you prefer where new media in particular has given a voice to everyone so we're becoming more and more aware of the things that divide us rather than those things that unite us and we must and their politicians and their leaders and this is where real leadership has to come in has to remind us of the things that keep us together to deliver to us stable peaceful societies rather than identifying those things which a politician or a n n s a insurgent politician or indeed a performer might want to draw up because it's profitable and we must certainly say that tickets to the an obvious problems in Australia. Not cheap the cheapest being $49.00 for a student and if you wanted a backstage pass and didn't get in for an early bird discount you could have been paying 149495 dollars so this is not a cheap enterprise and that's another element to that suggests to me it's learning a lot from pop star world tours in its organisation so I think there's a real danger in ignoring the content but there is a greater danger in being swept away by the performance. Phil has he been in Sydney coming soon according to the incident and Vincent you described earlier that. Uplifts was the court jester in the court of Donald Trump to what extent do you see this British born right when commentator as almost an informal ambassador for the ideals and ideas of Donald Trump taking the message all around the world to countries like Australia. Well I'm not sure Marlo can keep up with Donald Trump's Twitter feed I certainly cannot but I don't think I would not read it in that manner. I think he's care he's harvesting the type of discontent that does exist in the United States and which did bring President Trump to the White House but on the other hand I think in countries like Australia he's really exploiting the reputation that he initially established in the United States and I suspect the true largest percentage of Australians. We'll send will be one of my colleagues here at r m i t I's said what he'll be talking about and I said. Are not close and she said Oh didn't I see something in the paper about that but I think his profile has not penetrated the largest number of restraints but he is certainly appealing to a minority who feel strongly about the things that he's saying so it comes sort of comes down to this doesn't whether or not the government that the right thing for example giving him a visa is a bequest think that. There's occasional This matter has been raised occasionally I personally think he was the government was quite correct to let him in and I think. Denying people these is except in circumstances where their actions or activities might be really promoting. Illegal long term illegality and I'm thinking back to a couple of years ago where an American u.s. Citizen. Proposing a kind of men's liberation movement was denied a visa because if you scratch the surface they were very much his his campaign was very much to do with rape culture rather than necessarily liberating men to be men so there are occasions when denial of pieces to any country on these grounds is appropriate but I don't think this was this would be one. Phil anything else are you just wonder the incident given the audience at Parliament House including Pauline Hanson the leader of the anti immigration One Nation party do you think that his presence Mylo up loss in Australia is indicative that the sentiment surrounding anti immigration parties like one nation are actually on the increase given it's in the recent Queensland State election one nation fared electorial a far worse than many of the pundits had predicted finally. I think that many astray. Have reservations about immigration as a general topic and this has certainly been stirred up by people like One Nation it's I think this type of attitude is typified by you know. I have many good friends who are Vietnamese but I really don't want any more Vietnamese in the country that kind of and drivel and between those people we know as immigrants whom we know personally and the general area and the general idea of open immigration and that of course has been a big issue that has I think sullied Australia's international reputation with its treatment treatment of recent Richey G.'s who arrived by boat this is of course is totally a bigger issue for another day perhaps but essentially I think the visit to Parliament House for me I think that was a that would not that was an satisfactory to me to me for the reason that Parliament House is a place in all countries in which we encourage diversity of opinion. Here not by his press conference immediately after that appearance show that he wasn't interested in either defending his opinions or exploring any other ideas and so giving him a voice within within a building the site in the side of discourse about he is the site of a place where different ideas can come together and can be resolved was just really . And it Greta offended me personally on the other hand if he had given that address anywhere else in Camber at the invitation of Senator Lott home I would have noted no problems but looking at the photographs of those present I must say I'm reminded of that line at the end of Casablanca about rounding up all the usual suspects I don't think anyone who sees at any given. And he goes to hear his speeches his performances. Will be had in mind changed he's not since appealing to and talking with the converted and that seems to me that if you want to run a political movement you need to talk to people who are not converted because those are the people you cannot critique or cause simply reinforcing the prejudice of a small group of people does not change the world and I think that is one reason why people like Miller. Will fail in his endeavors Well Vincent nice to have you with us again I thank you very much my pleasure rod. And so Donald from the School of Media and Communication at our mit in Melbourne it's just after half past. I. Want to say this is b.b.c. 5 Live this is a news conference you're critter to read I have been charged with terrorist offenses in connection to what's being described as an alleged plot to assassinate the prime minister neighbors Zachariah Rahman And Mohammed I keep them around our g. Tipping court later for sure won't be allowed to compete in the 2018 Winter Olympics if a less evidence is state sponsored doping in the 2014 Sochi Games which Russia denies war and that's in the sports and independent review claim security services missed chances to stop the Manchester Arena bomber if found salmonella Beatty been a subject of interest to every i Phone 5. Well again ahem it has become the 1st black woman to win the 10 a prize the 62 year olds also become the oldest recipient of the award for their work on racial politics and the legacy of slavery sport. There will be no Russia team the young Chang Winter Olympics in February although Russian athletes who prove they're clean can compete under a neutral flag the International Olympic Committee has suspended Russia following an investigation into allegations of state sponsored doping our sports editor Dan Rohan says it's a landmark decision it's a sanction a punishment without precedent in the history of the Olympic movement for a country as important as Russia's sporting superpower let's not forget they're the hosts of the World Cup next year no less to be barred from the Winter Olympics which start of course in just $65.00 days time in South Korea and pay on Chan has never happened before Manchester United struck twice in 3 minutes to come back and win to one against c.s.k. Moscow in the Champions League manager Jos a Marine who was relieved to get into the last 16 as group winners and really happy because you don't want to qualify me to the shit we don't want to qualify for that performance so the objective was to qualify as playing well and trying to get at least a positive result and that's included in their various are all Chelsea though can expect a tough draw in the last 16 after qualifying from their group in 2nd it's after being held to a 11 draw by Athletico Madrid our football correspondent John Murray was at Stamford Bridge this was a result that wasn't good enough for either team for Chelsea it meant they were overtaken by Roma at the top of the group Fred logical it means the runners up in 2 of the last 4 seasons are out of the Champions League finishing 3rd in this section it turned into quite an entertaining but in the 2nd half Athletico taking the lead through a sell Nikos header Chelsea equalized with a savage goal but athletic goalkeeper Black had a good night Chelsea couldn't take the chances they had to win it and now. If Liverpool go on to win their group Chelsea will only be able to draw Barcelona Parisa or position in the last 16 Celtic lost one nil at home to the lax they'll be in the Europa League last 32 in the spring the former England batsman Mark Butcher who hit 173 not out to steer the team to a famous backs to the wall win against Australia in 2001 says Joe Root side must believe they can win the 2nd Test in Adelaide England made another 178 runs on the last day and have 6 wickets in hand it's not the trick helpful to think about how many going to get it's just really very much a case of not really concentrating 100 percent on the next ball is it comes down which is I guess no different from any other time there's a good reason why so few large 4th innings takes down and it's because the pressure of the situation kind of gets to you as much special starts at 3 15 am on 5 Live Sports Extra and of the u.k. Snooker Championship in New York the former champion Sean Murphy beat Jimmy Robertson in round 3 he'll play Ricky Walden next who saw off car and Wilson. People whispering on solely about. How this is this is going to cost them a nice exude. Spin but given the name of the cast there was calls to be shot from behind the scenes as the u.k. MCO c.-h. Kids and said to me your opinion was all of these going on they were saying you know there was a front there would be the regulatory divergence on the island of Ireland. Breaks It costs from b.b.c. Politics and b.b.c. Search and download now using your pod cast app across the u.k. This is b.b.c. 5. Where we all feel the need to get on with the neighbors otherwise terrible things will happen to us. Depicted in the Daily Express this morning on the couple who have an enormous wall which had been built between them and their neighbor who they can't seem to get on with our toll Joining us know is Phil's next guest to talk about a particularly important relationship between neighbors now of yes and of very big neighbor as well not to Australia's nearest neighbor that is pump when you give me but certainly China is Australia's most important trading partner and when you look at Australia's Trade its military alliances and its geography and its history this is a nation Rob that is being pulled in so many different directions prosperity in recent times and in the future is increasingly tied to China militarily Australia has a defense pact with the United States and New Zealand dating back to the early 1950 s. Of course historically ties with Britain do run very deep and of course all talk of conflicts tends to come out during the Ashes series as well and I'm joined now by Professor James Lawrence and James is the deputy director of the Australia China relations Institute at the University of Technology here in Sydney thanks very much for coming in fielding right good to be with you both and when we think of Australia's relations with China as we were saying just a few moments ago it's never a dull moment is it really that's for sure the goods we know with the good stories last year we sold $115000000000.00 worth destroying goods and services to China it's underpinned our prosperity a strategy of pretty much sailed through the global financial crisis one of the reasons for that was Chinese demand for l l l put at the same time there's a negative side as well of course this shows up in the security space not the economics economics is the good stuff the security challenges are on the negatives and these are the 2 issues that we constantly try. And to deal with in this ties in doesn't it with the Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull saying in the last 24 hours that there will be a wide ranging crackdown on foreign interference in domestic policies he said that he was targeting covert coercive activities he didn't name necessarily China individually but reading between the lines he was kind of pointing his finger at the Chinese was indeed absolutely So he actually made the explicit point to say that the new goals that we're into going to be introduced are not targeted to China specifically that said when the attorney general was discussing these new laws the 2 names of people he brought up who might be caught up in these new laws 'd were both people who were prominent in these trailer China's space no one's talking about people that are representing American companies or American think tanks it's those with China links that are getting the attention and also they have been stories over the last 18 months or so probably longer than that of alleged Chinese interference in the cyber as well there was a big attack on the weather bureau here in Australia that was blamed on the Chinese of course very difficult to prove this is this something that Australia has security agencies are having to become increasingly aware of that China is a growing power you have to deal with all sorts of facets of a growing country like China you're absolutely right so last week we've been talking a lot about a single politician a set of the same destiny area who has gotten in some hot water over his china links but it's not just that that's not the only story that's not why it's so big over the last couple years there's been talks of Chinese interference in the form of Chinese companies investing in the stroller Chinese link to business people making political donations they see there's even been talking about Chinese students in a stray or protesting against Australian lecturers on topics such as the status of Taiwan and so this is all being bundled up together and it's. Become a real bit of a China panic story destroyed or at least over the last 12 months remember when the Olympic torch came to Canberra for the Beijing Olympics quite a long time ago there were in the center of Camber of Australia's national capital there were about 10000 Chinese supporters students other activists and other expatriates who gathered down there to celebrate the arrival of the torch or about 2000 Tibetans supporters in campaigners and when the Chinese about $10000.00 of them started waving the flag and singing the anthem you could almost feel it bouncing off your chest and I was chatting to a friend of mine who is from the u.k. Telegraph and we were saying Mike if 10000 Chinese people can make you feel slightly intimidated by their passion and their verbs imagine what over a 1000000000 people can do is that what Australia is having to contend with it's just that that that flourishing of nationalism and the seeking of opportunity that China is renowned for and Australia as a as a middling country is now having to deal with that and again on a domestic level we need to be careful because China is big in every sense so you mentioned 10000 Chinese students Well don't forget they're actually 131000 Chinese students in Australia so not many showed up in other words when you were talking about patriotism Well I'm pretty sure you know if you're in a stadium with a straight in cricket team was playing all the English football team was playing you'd get a lot of chest thumping patriotism as well academic research actually shows that the average Chinese is less nationalistic than the average Indian or Indonesian So you know we need to be a bit careful about extrapolate these pictures on our t.v. Into the reality of what the average Chinese student thinks and how difficult is it for for Australia to tread that diplomatic line between better relations with China given the prosperity is tied increasingly to Chinese demand for Australian goods and services and tourism and what have you with these longstanding military alliance with the United States and these. Thomas with Britain as well can Australia kind of maintain that delicate balancing act to get a look at when we talk of cultural ties let's not forget we're actually we've actually got increasing cultural ties with China as well so there's more people of Chinese heritage in Australia than England for example so the cultural ties with China are incredibly taught how we're going straddling that well that was really the subject of a struggling government white paper last year last week on our foreign policy. And that emphasizes the economic opportunities that China offers astrolabe at the same time he really doubled down on our commitment to the u.s. Security Alliance and some commentators found that interesting particularly given Donald Trump's tendencies to withdraw from the Asian region and also is it even possible the reality is that the same white paper said that China's economy would add $21.00 trillion over the next 15 years now that was more than the combined editions of the Us India Japan and Indonesia so you know how realistic is it to pretend that everything's just going to be the same and we can just double down of what we've done in the past. Very interested then and the idea. Is deciding that Ok it's going to be abandoned by the United States I mean that's obviously a terrible overstatement Professor Lawrence and some but you also say there's a that's a kind of preface to all this isn't it we're in a brave new world. We are and we've been through this before of course we felt abandoned by the u.k. 50 years ago and that's why we signed up to a teacher in a military alliance with the u.s. And they were facing the exact same pressures the very famous Elon given to his very famous Australian firm policy commentator He's written a book a book called The fear of abandonment that's a central challenge that always seems to lie at the heart of a strike his foreign policy. Well yeah you've just just outlined the idea that you can be abandoned and has been left under the British would say well we had no choice we had no choice when it was a matter of trying to Farda a sort of worldwide army and I suppose in a way that. Donald Trump is not making that argument as he's not saying it's about drawing our arms and spending less on the Navy or on the fence well but he is saying America 1st is making that clear that his commitment is to America 1st and when you look at u.s. Actions in the region recently for example there's been no real serious pressure that's been put on China in terms of its actions in the South China Sea So of course you know the u.s. Allies in the region of watching these sorts of moves in the questioning and you did you can look at the security issues in isolation here at the same time on the economic front you're seeing you know president trumped almost looking it's almost looking increasingly like he's going to withdraw the u.s. From the or at least sidelined that institution of course on climate as well has withdrawn from the Paris accord so there are a lot of things pulling in the same direction and that is towards an America 1st approach and not towards an America that's engaged in the region. Talk about the South China Sea Then from it because as you say we haven't heard hard as much about it as with drawing the last year of the Obama administration but it's still a very live issue for the Australians. It is a live issue although I think you are correct over the last 12 months that has died down and one of the reasons it's died down is because we've had more and more countries in Southeast Asia that quite frankly have been prepared to deal with China on a one on one basis which is exactly what the Chinese government has always wanted so straight his position is very clear on this we support the resolution of these disputes in accordance with international law and what that means with that you know in 2016 there was an arbitration decision that went in favor of the Philippines and against China well our government says that that decision is final and binding at the same time if these things are settling down and the countries directly involved are resolving their disputes Well the start is probably pretty happy about that and it's not just that Australia is agreeing to look the other way while while these enormous Island building ships carry on with their work absolutely not in fact if you look at the regional response to the arbitration decision in 2016 Australia was way ahead of everyone else. Government made it very clear that it considered China's actions in the South China Sea to be in contravention of you know the international. Can you tell us a little bit more about what. That actually did that got him into such hot water is a good question so it's a long story but I'm going to try and give you the 32nd version so he took Ok. First thing he did was he asked a Chinese businessman to pay travel but actually was an Australian citizen but I think Chinese to pay a travel bill and he has to different Chinese businessmen to pay a legal bill that was also on his desk in both cases I did now that was bad enough but what really made it worse was. Revelations more recently that. He went to a media conference standing alongside one of those Chinese businesspeople and essentially he parroted Beijing's line on the South China Sea that is it's not a strenuous business we should it's China's issue to solve and of course that's not the position of his political party it's certainly not the position of the struggling government so you put the money together and those sorts of words and he's now been banished to the back bench of the Australian Senate and I don't think you'll be seeing him again and is he likely to be the subject of any sort of ethics investigation for taking money from I mean taking money from foreign powers to too strong now that's a great question and here's why he's done nothing illegal even the government says that So in a strategy or these one of the business people who paid his travel bill has also been a prolific political donor donor to both sides of politics in Australia and that is completely legal the attorney general himself has said that the actions of sand same destiny are the senator that we're talking about didn't meet the standards of espionage or treason so there's been nothing illegal done here by the Chinese business person or the senator but it just looks bad and also for that reason the government just yesterday announced some new laws that it intends on introducing which includes things like banning foreign political donations. When we think of the influence of China economically as you say James It has been vast insulating Australia from the worst effects of the global financial crisis what about the social effects of these very close ties between Australia and China you go to university your university over the road University of Technology Sydney University of New South Wales many many Chinese students many Chinese migrants fast approaching the traditional settlers from Great Britain and New Zealand into Australia Chinese buyers of real estate what sort of impacts socially are the Chinese having in modern Australia socially I think it's actually a very good story because frankly if it wasn't for Chinese immigrants we would struggle to engage with China let me just give you one example of a something that's very basic and that is the level of Mandarin language competency in Australia where all the evidence says that our educational institutions have actually gone backwards in terms of scaling up a strains in Mandarin language so therefore we rely very heavily on our migrant community when we engage with China other issues have been more sensitive you mentioned real estate there is a firm view in some parts of the community not well supported by the evidence. That one of the reasons why house prices in Sydney are so high is because of Chinese buyers so this is a challenge the government's always having to try and manage and that's also explained some of their policy decisions recently such as a crackdown on illegal foreign buyers the war says that foreign buyers cannot buy 2nd hand apartments or houses in Australia they have to buy new ones and the idea of that is that they're going to expand housing supply for Australian citizens because the Chinese have a very long history in Australia don't they the gold rush days of the 18 hundreds and probably before that how do you think other Australians regard China's influence and Chinese migrants coming to this. Coming to this country in greater numbers wielding great influence you're quite right to the history of Chinese in Australia goes back only to a little bit after the Brits arrived so it's an extremely long history making incredibly important contributions to this country but I don't think it's well understood and then more recently you've had waves of Chinese immigration that have been very different waves so we had waves from from Hong Kong for example in the 19 nineties and Taiwan as well now clearly those migrants are very very different in their outlook to more recently the markets we've had have been mainly from mainland China so it says the mainland Chinese markets have come more recently combined with an immigration system that explicitly sets out to not grab migrants on humanitarian grounds but to grab them on their economic grounds so the Chinese markets by definition and from other countries as well that we see coming to Australia do tend to be more wealthy and so that also feeds into these concerns that they might be driving things like rising housing prices and this ties into the idea of immigration as an economic tool doesn't it exactly yes then they start a government is quite open up front about that that's what we're trying to do now whether that's a great idea socially is very much the subject of debate you know we know for example during the 1970 s. We had a lot of immigration from places like Viet Nam It was on a humanitarian grounds and those waves of video immigration have been incredibly successful in the end on an economic ground as well because those kids of you know started destroying universities and now making some very important contributions to our society and when you look at the immigration intake as you mentioned before it's the Brits and the Kiwis traditionally at the top fast approaching from positions 3 in 4 are Indian migrants and Chinese migrants is this part of the Asian if occasion if you like of of Australia's immigration system given that people from China see opportunity and they love the blue skies in Australia and the clean air which is always going. V attractive Yeah it absolutely is a look at really not surprising so one in 3 a strains are born overseas so we are by definition one of the most multicultural countries in the world and it's hardly surprising really what is surprising is that most of our migrants for a long time still came from the u.k. And it's actually more given our geography it actually makes more sense where you would expect to see more migrants from the likes of India and China both countries which have a population of over 1000000000 people and Aberdeen as well that's where my family is originally from and I'm quite proud to say they are. Well did do you feel that the political climate is changing because of this immigration and the do any of these groups particularly tend to vote in a particular way that they vote as a block or do they vote as a stroke. Yeah look they voted as a strain in fact one of the big surprises about the Chinese community in Australia is that there's no single representative so if you talk about the Greek community or the Italian community you can put your fingers on particular community groups with their representatives the Chinese community in Australia is incredibly diverse and you know if you were a federal parliamentarian looking to speak to the Chinese community it wouldn't be clear who you would speak to so I don't think the migrant communities having the impact on political debate in Australia but certainly the issue of China more generally and the security challenges for example that the Chinese government poses for a strike that's what's driving political debate in Australia and yes over the last 12 months there has been a massive shift in the discussion in the stroller towards a more skeptical and fearful view of China amongst those groups so what does that mean for defense spending. Government says that it is boosting defense spending at the moment so they've committed to getting it up to 2 percent of g.d.p. So that's about $30000000000.00. You know that's that's pretty middle of the range internationally China by the way while we're Penick ng about China's military rise the fact is that it only spends 1.9 percent of its g.d.p. On the military the u.s. Of course is far away head of everyone else on 3.3 percent of course try to use g.d.p. As an actual figure as far far in excess of Australian g.d.p. Exactly right yes so one of the one of the lines you'll often hear in a strike pushed by the security folks is that China spends more on its military than every other country in the region which is true but the fact is that if you add up all the g.d.p. Of the countries in the reach it still is less than China's So as a proportion of China's economy it's actually not that much but as a dollar amount yes it is big. And what kind of has it been a change in arrival for example of Chinese ships and Australian ports I mean to do they come on friendly visits I mean did they do this training government says that it's trying to engage more with China and have more cooperation on the defense to defense level for example but at the same time the most prominent moves being made in this space certainly with the United States so we have u.s. Marines permanently based in Darwin in Australia's north and we also host military assets of the us more and more each year so that the steps being taken to engage with China on a military to military level certainly a long way behind other countries in particularly the Us Jims thank you very much indeed for coming in to talk to us Phil maybe you've got a final question for our guest. Just very briefly James do you think Australia can have it both ways can have China's money and America's security without causing too much upset Phil I think it's going to a take some accommodation of a strike on a strike is part look the reality is China is not going to accept playing 2nd fiddle to the us in its own neighborhood right don't get me wrong I don't buy this idea that China is trying to upset everything if you look at China's quite happy to work with generally work within the current framework Ok it's done very well at the current order it doesn't want to upset that it's still relatively poor country don't forget on an average per capita income basis so I don't think you'll see China throwing its weight around too much but look it's not going to be the same as it was 50 years ago and so I think sometimes there will be a need for a strategy to adapt and you know gauge with China rather than just sitting back and expecting the Us defense back to handle. Our gas here has been president Lauren some deputy director of the Australian China relations Institute University of Technology and. To our hosts. In b.b.c. Sydney's thank you very much.