It figures higher than pay off but of course there's a psychological issue as well which is that some people feel quite good faith knowing that they've got money in the buying just in case of an emergency so you sometimes have to juggle a psychological answer with a financial answer we've got a minute left left when interest rates are going to go up on the we were hearing from one of the economist from a fairly big bank and walk past us the other day in the office here and said Well the latest the latest guess is bring of next year was before it was 2019 but interest rates are going to be low forever now are they going to go up other not after of course they're going to go up because they can't go any further down so that it will they will go up at some point and that will cause huge shock waves there's been a lot of reports over the last couple weeks about labels a personal data and people are seen people get really low mortgage rates at the moment and when mortgage rates start to increase it's going to a huge impact on the way people they'll be people budget because the monthly expenditures are going to go up dramatically and I would be suggesting to people I've got a date at the moment if you can pay some of that down because they're not and in any interest on on money they've got an savings accounts then they'll be much better staffed when interest rates do start to rise Ferguson thank you very much indeed we had so many Texans today thank you Reed loads and loads of Texas people getting really quite you know their brains work and doing some muscle so some of us if a boat is loaded onto another boat the 2nd boat becomes a ship so what happens if the ship with the boat loaded onto its then loaded onto a larger ship is that sickens me is the 2nd vessel still a ship or does it ever back to being a boat that's from I'll thank you thank you Donna heads and. Joining us as I grew up in Port Glasgow saw the queue to come down the clouds she was fitted out the great dry dock so became a fixture when she got back to the Clyde I think it was 1990 I was at base station a sort of beautiful sunny blue sky morning coming in between big Cumbrian Butte loads loads we just don't have time thank you so much for these as I say news Dr will be chasing the story about the clouding but for me I'm a team led by my until tomorrow but I. I wonder just how many of us have swim with dolphins on the bucket list what he did about dolphins in particular that so many of us find to be captivating and in Scotland we're lucky enough to be home to a number of Dolphin pods at this brainwaves I've come to Andrew's home not just a dolphin but to the F.L.Y. Discussing Ocean Institute and to Vincent Janik the festive biology director of the S.O.I. And a man who studies dolphin communication how could he chat Vincent we're standing here on the beach in San Andres great location for work purposes I am very jealous we're looking out to sea and it's a lovely calm day to day do you see dolphins from here yes yeah we have bottlenose dolphins that live along the east coast of Scotland come here quite regularly they're here primarily in the summer but we do go out from our institute a small boats and study them right to your phone calls which is a great opportunity and how well do you know that local park do you well there's no connection with them yet you know them from work that's been done for quite some time I mean Sanders and every team together have developed or or build a photo ID catalogue over the years and so we have a pretty good idea about this population who is who mainly looking at the marks on the fins for identification and tracking where they're going so there's quite a lot of history in the research and so therefore we know a fair bit about the individuals as well what kind of figures are we talking about for dolphins around Scotland do we know how many Pods there are how many what the population is right when we're talking about the population here off the east coast estimates kind of go looking at around 150 to a 180 animals that live along here and they are roaming really from pretty far all along the East Coast they've been seen down as far as Newcastle and certainly up sort of kind of John O'Groats area but all around Scotland there's a lot of different species of dolphins in this. Why is this one of the reasons why this country is great for studying marine mammals because you've got a variety of species that live in the North Atlantic that come to the coast off the west coast and you get a resource dolphins you get an empty right side of dolphins you get by big Dolphins divide B. Dolphins even here on the east coast you get common dolphins yet there's a huge variety of animals you can study I've seen dolphins a couple of times up in America 1st near where where I live and I get a huge buzz every time I've been out generally point and seen and you can see them really quite close there and that for me that trail never never fades Do you still get a thrill from from Sea World dolphin Absolutely absolutely I think that it's kind of really motivating I think one of the reasons why it's I think so amazing to us because you look at the sea surface and it looks relatively uniform as very little to see and you certainly see this large a big mammal jumping out of it which of course to us looks like something you do out of joy and I think that's kind of partly wired fascinates people but what I find interesting is when you go into it I always ask myself what is actually the experience of the animal Why is the animal doing it and I overinterpretation am I to anthropomorphic looking at them and so this is a really what motivates me but I'm still very excited seeing them I love going out in the field I get to do it less and less now that I'm more in charge of the whole institute but it's certainly a highlight of the job we're going to want to look in a lot more detail about the specifics of your research and research in particular into dolphin communication but thank you 1st of all about the kind of the landscape of Dolphin Research has that shifted much over the past 50 odd years I mean what is that kind of landscape Well I think the start of Marine Mammal Research certainly was kind of linked to whaling and to the to the larger whales really as a kind of resource for food and in those days Dolphins certainly were also just used as that as a resource I think in the in the sixty's there was a real shift because. There was a appreciation for dolphins showing this kind of complexity and behavior and it really all came about people bringing in dolphins into captive environments where they're able to for the 1st time to observe their behaviors and see them some around to see what they actually do before that all they could do is walk along the beach like we do now on occasion you come across a dead animal on the beach and that's kind of what we knew of them and of course at the start or kind of went almost out of proportion because of course there are all the stories about often intelligence and often language and in the sixty's in particular there was a scientist John Lilly who was interested in Euro science and he thought that there was great complexity there and got the U.S. Navy for example to buying in and even the funders in America the National Science Foundation gave them research money and sold things kind of went out of proportion a little bit and in terms of the methodology there was a lot of problems and this is interesting that they don't want to the journey of the take I mean you know that's right it was famously you know the experiment where I think I woman Margaret how to live with a dolphin and I hear you're trying to China teach him to test peak yes or no yes an interesting. Idea is going on but you say that the enthusiasm is something that in the that carried on and carried through it has and of course even back then there were scientists who looked at this in a in a better way I think in a more sound way and and describe the actual behavior of the dolphins and I was always motivated to sort of say all of this early research focus so much on language and on how animals potentially speak and I always want to know what do they actually do when they're out there among themselves what is the natural communication system and why do they have the complexity that we find today what we see is really a combination of research in the wild as well as research in aquaria because both of these settings have different advantages and different disadvantages and so what we really need and what the landscape and the science as right now is one of a combination of those 2 approaches and using both together we really are a much better it's. To understand the animals and to learn about them so in terms of in the wild I mean you physically going out on the the sea the side it's with the boat how does it happen in practice with recording kits I'm trying to picture yes how you study Yeah I do this so we launch and abodes off those beach in fact to go out and record animals and yes it's a recording kit so we using professional audio equipment for recording them some of it off the shelf material that we can buy other stuff that's actually being custom built in in the lab but the basics really are a bunch of microphones underwater microphones that you put in where you can not only recall the animals but also that allow you to tell where sounds coming from which is really key for communication and to know what makes the sound and who responds and also underwater speakers because one large part of this type of research is to do experiments and and experiment I can play a sound and I can make a prediction of what the animal should do is my ideas about the sounds are correct and so this is a is a tool that we're using a lot of these play like experiments so underwater now it's because of the other thing that we have on board and and then you go out and record them and sometimes you have to process data on the boat and the other thing that we do is we attach the recording tax to the animals themselves so we have suction cup tax for dolphins and you can put on the animal and that basically rides on its back for sort of if you can set the time when it comes off so in terms of limitations it's mainly battery limited. And you can record on board the dolphin if you want and then you recover the tag afterwards and so in that sense you put the record on the back of the animal get a much closer look at or much closer listen to what the animals doing marches are would love for us to be or to jump in a boat and head out to see that side of things it's a bit nippy on a beach in Sudan trees in winter so we're going to head back inside I think into the institute OK take a closer look at some of the work in the sounds good. OK so the clicking sound. That you hear that sound of it like it like it clicks on the door makes when you run the. WORLD Well those are the often clicks the top and as well so everything you hear pretty much of the dolphin. So the sounds that we're listening to right now are clicks and 1st thoughts. And as you can see the dolphins are making them a lot the clicks probably useful at the location so look look a lot of the ultrasonic range we can listen to it but we do hear the word and 50 of those. And the burst Pod sound usually communication sounds. That's kind of sound that's right now the clicks are probably also Poppy communications quite hard to tell apart what's what but the one sound that we know the most about is a dolphin whistle. And you see a lot of a high pitched sounds that you here occasionally and those other ones that we normally the most about they're also communication sounds primarily for long distance communication for animals to stay in touch and to be able to identify each other it's a whistles that repeat it almost looks like a scratch across the audio stream that we're looking here that's right we're looking at a spectrogram and saw a lion there's a tonal sound and that's what the whistles are what you hear is you hear kind of signal clicking sounds and these are the low frequency and the vehicle cation think that this is a woman who can sense yeah it's important as that's right as they become faster they can of sound like creaking door and that as most of your information sounds and then we have what's called a burst of sounds that kind of sound more like the those kinds of cells. Those are also of clicks that are produced very rapidly so it's a little bit like you have the clicking dog if you move fast it starts to come up squeak rather than just being clicks and that's the same thing as you produce clicks in rapid succession they become to our year they become more total and this has to do with the temporal resolution of auditory system at some stage we can't resolve this anymore so that we can hear the signal clicks and instead we're hearing a frequency that's the repetition rate of the clicks as you move the door so so that's what you have Those are called burst Pods sounds sounds actually expressed post sounds the best part sounds are largely for communication how do you know that clicks for at the location communication whistles are for longer distance communication how on earth can people that to be education work as goes as far back as the sixty's where people are 1st shown that dolphins have echolocation just like bats and that was experimental work with captive animals where you can ultimately put suction cup kind of I caps on the animals so they can see and you can see where they can still capture fish and you can record what they're doing at the same time and so scientists very early on after shown that they have a good location and we know the clicks off for that the problem is that of course these animals make these sounds dynamically in their own lives and they're making them and so. Interactions as well and truly not always just to find out what's in front of them so they're also taking on a communication function so to really distinguish It's not that easy and that's why I'm saying some of the clicks are also for communication if you are trying to interpret sounds really then there is only one of kind of 3 possible explanations one is that it's some kind of byproduct of a sound that doesn't actually have a function like say you know an animal the bird flapping its wings makes a sound might not have a function the other one is that it is somehow for in the animal uses echo location or you know uses the echo of the sound and then the 3rd one is communication you want to make a sound to you know 2 to get a message across and I mean to ask communicate what I mean how on earth can you start to pick apart well. It's very difficult not to say what are they talking about because that's the way I suppose we think that in our own terms but But what that might they be communicating about the location might be where if issue is a fish but that if you communicating might be there's a fish bite you know to someone else I mean any any sense how you can start to pick apart what shape or form that communication takes in terms of content you know so the 1st thing you've got to do is you've got to kind of look for patterns so you're looking at a at a file like this and you get a look at what what happens more than once what are we current patterns and what is the kind of arrangement of these sounds so one thing that sticks out with dolphins and has I guess struck scientists early on when they looked at the whistle sounds in particular is that there are certain whistles that you see AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN And so this is the point where you kind of go all here is your something that clearly is significant the animals repeating it I maybe hear it over various different days even recording sessions and so that's the really 1st step you just kind of looking at what you've recorded in the try to find patterns once you have a pattern like this you can then kind of ask what it what is the sound for you try to look at what you know what else happened when I recorded the sounds with the animals or close together where they fall apart. Was it the same animals on different days when I recalled the same sounds you kind of try to look for correlates of the sound production and then the final step is where you do an experiment so you say OK I think the sound is for staying in touch for example and you can then play that sound back to animals in a specific situation and if you for example play a mother's offspring from a certain distance and it's for contact you would expect the mother to react to it in approach to sound and so this way you can test whether your ideas about what these might mean kind of comes close to what the animals actually think about sounds and what is the sound now what are they communicating about as far as you know so our focus was mainly on the whistles and and in the sixty's 2 scientists Melbourne David Koch will have found that if you take it off and you isolated from its group it's producing the same whistle over and over again and you find that on a lot of animals there's of so-called contact calls to kind of stay in touch with other animals but what was peculiar for them was every time they took an animal into isolation they recorded a different whistle that was always the same whistle with the same animal but it was a different one between each animal and that kind of is an unusual pattern because normally you have an isolation call that's the same for everyone but with these animals it seems like every animal has its individually distinctive isolation call almost like it's an accent no more like a slightly different call it's quite a different call you have really as if you have a different name for every animal and very early on people have compared the sound to names they were term signature whistles because it's kind of the signature of the animal producing that particular whistle it's almost what they call themselves yes if you want to kind of throw that perils of human language yes that is yes so that dolphins been isolated and it's making a noise. For had to give it to they might call this a kind of here I am here I am but but that's different to you being isolated and saying Here I am we say differently Well that's an interesting example because they hear I am is exactly what I mean for general contact cause so you could say you know here I am you can say that I can say. That it's the same thing but what's interesting here is if I say I am Vincent and you say I am penny and so you have a real difference in sound we actually using different words with different completely different sounds and that's kind of the peril you can draw and I think that's why people early on came up with this idea that they are like names because there would be different sounds and not just different voices what happens when you put them back into the group this is a group then refer to them. With sounds to say it's pretty it's Vincent is is that kind of signature replicated Yeah that's a that's kind of one of the key questions that we're asking ourselves and the reason for that as. Yes the animals learn about the sounds and they make the association between you know the penny sound in you for example but the queer question from a communication complexity perspective is what is going on internally what does the and how does the animal represent this other individual so in other words if I make the penny sound I could just be in a situation where I go Penny Penny Penny and then you show up and that's kind of what I want to do is positive but in my head it could just be if I do this then that happens or I could have a representation where no you are penny and this is your name and this is what you look like and so you know in this is where you are from so you can have a concept of the object or in this case and through the individual