With me, zeinab badawi. The president of the democratic republic of congo, Joseph Kabila, has been in powerfor 16 years, and should have stood down at elections that were due last november. Still no elections are in sight and opposition leaders are growing increasingly frustrated. My guest today is opposition politician Moise Katumbi. Is effectively in exile in europe, so is effectively in exile in europe, so what can he achieve that this distance . At this distance. And has the opposition been outmanoeuvred by president kabila . Moise katumbi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. December the 31st last year, a deal was hammered out under the auspices of a group of powerful Catholic Bishops in the drc. Does that present a way forward . There should be a Transitional Administration, pending elections to be held in 2018, Joseph Kabila wont stand. Yes, we know that deal, which the argument with the congolese government and the opposition, supposed to serve the country. So far the agreement is dead. President Joseph Kabila doesnt want, really, to make the application of the agreement. So really, everything is stuck at the moment. The court is that group of Catholic Bishops. At oui that group of Catholic Bishops. At our understanding is that the son of the late 0pposition Leader, who died in february, should be the Prime Minister in that Transitional Administration. Is that something that the opposition will accept, including new . I agree for him to become the Prime Minister, and all the opposition, the majority agree for felix, and to replace his father as president of the community following the election. But no word yet from Joseph Kabila on whether he would accept that . No, Joseph Kabila is playing tactics at the moment. The agreement is very clear. There are some in the opposition, it is not up to even them. It is not up to president Joseph Kabila. Not up to even them. It is not up to president Joseph Kabila. You know, with the death of tshisekedi early in february, this veteran 0pposition Leader, really respected by so many people, politicians and ordinary folk in the drc, and when he died, a human rights advocate said with the death of tshisekedi, the opposition has lost its unifying force, and could shatter. He has got a point, hasnt he . No, i dont think so. Because president tshisekedi really was the first 0pposition Leader in oui was the first 0pposition Leader in our country, and ourselves, we need to ta ke our country, and ourselves, we need to take care about what president tshisekedi left. At the moment the opposition is, there is a big unity in the opposition, and we are going to do all our best to change the face of our country. We need a strong opposition, not fighting opposition. A strong opposition, though . Is Felix Tshisekedi really the man to fill his fathers Shoes Asa The Man to fill his fathers shoes as a possible Prime Minister in a Transitional Administration . He has got no ministerial experience. People talk about him being rather naive. No, it is not true. You know, first, Felix Tshisekedi was not chosen by the father. By Different Party politics,. Chosen by the father. By Different Party politics,. Butjust because he has the Etienne Tshisekedi name. It is not because of the Etienne Tshisekedi name. Etienne tshisekedi had a lot of children, only felix was interested in doing the politics, and is somebody. I went asa politics, and is somebody. I went as a governor, i had never been in politics, and felix was in politics a long time in the opposition with his father. I think he is going to be the Prime Minister. Why president Joseph Kabila doesnt want felix, because he is not somebody of good word. So you mentioned when you are governor, that is when you were governor, that is when you were governor of the province from 2007 to 2015. We will come to that in a moment. Here you are i think this should happen or that should happen in the drc, but can you have any influence when you are in europe . You are currently based in brussels, effectively in exile. Yes, you know, my exile. I am in exile, and still waiting for the country, waiting also on the unity of the opposition. And going all over the world, i travel almost every day, i am in the plane, to go and fight my country. To talk to the people, today the killing is too much in my country. There is really a lot of killing going on in the east of the congo. There is no rule of law in my country at the moment. That is between the various Militia Groups and forces opposed to the president , and forces opposed to the president , and so on, in the east of the country . No, i think and so on, in the east of the country . No, ithink the and so on, in the east of the country . No, i think the killing is coming from the government soldiers at the moment. Killing innocent girls, that is why we need the international investigation. But here you are, though, saying all these things should happen and you have been chosen as the president ial candidate in elections whenever they ta ke candidate in elections whenever they take place by g7, which is a group of seven opposition parties, and in addition to that more parties have rallied behind you in the opposition, Something Like 20 are backing you. But you are still out of the country. So really, shouldnt you be there . Why arent you going back to the drc . I want to go back as quick as possible, to go back to my country. The time i wanted to come back, they took me to court began in my country, to say i have stolen something. Which is ridiculous. It is a plot against a candidate. Joseph kabila is scared for my return to the congo, because he knows it is his end and i am a candidate, iam he knows it is his end and i am a candidate, i am going to go back as soon as possible. You have been saying that for a while. And of course, you are talking thereabout your supporters, saying there was a trumped up charge of your selling a property illegally in the capital of katanga, and you were sentenced to 36 months in prison, and you say thatis 36 months in prison, and you say that is not the case, it is just a fa ke that is not the case, it is just a fake charge. But there are other things being said about you, that you were plotting againstJoseph Kabila, that you hired mercenaries, and isnt there an investigation going on at the moment into what you might have done . You know, all those are fake stories. Because president Joseph Kabila is scared. I am the only onejoseph Joseph Kabila is scared. I am the only one Joseph KabilaJoseph Kabila is scared. I am the only oneJoseph Kabila is getting today. He doesnt want me to return backin today. He doesnt want me to return back in the congo, because i did a really good job, and why the other Political Parties chose me as their candidate . Because i did Something Wonderful when i was governor. They changed the economy of the country and the economy of the province. The timei and the economy of the province. The time i became governor, the province of katanga had only 180 million per annum. Ileft of katanga had only 180 million per annum. I left over 4 billion. So really, at the moment, when i left, before i resigned, the budget was 9 billion. Today the budget is not more than 3 billion per annum. So you point to these achievements, and there are independent observers who say that you did accomplish a great deal when you were governor of katanga, but can you translate that kind of popularity on a nationwide basis . Because you dont make that many appearances in the capital, you didnt when you were in the drc. How goodis didnt when you were in the drc. How good is your ling gala, by the way . My good is your ling gala, by the way . My lingala is quite good so far. Good is your ling gala, by the way . My lingala is quite good so fanm is not that great, though . |j my lingala is quite good so fanm is not that great, though . I speak very flu e nt is not that great, though . I speak very fluent lingala, very fluent lingala i speak. The point i am making is that that is the language of the north west and your power basesin of the north west and your power bases in the south east. Do you have Nationwide Appeal . The Nationwide Appeal, i am all over all of the provinces and if you go in the different provinces where i was not asa different provinces where i was not as a governor, people need me. Because they saw what i did in the katanga province, the changes which did my province, and really, ithink ifi did my province, and really, ithink if i didnt have a good result as governor, i would if i didnt have a good result as governor, iwould not if i didnt have a good result as governor, i would not be supposed to stand. People want me coming in because today people are suffering, people are dying. The economy is a big disaster today. No security in the country. Sure, that is the case, but can you do all of that without a party . You dont have a party. But can you do all of that without a party . You dont have a Partylj Wa Nt to party . You dont have a partylj want to be independent because i wa nt to want to be independent because i want to unify everyone. Even the people from the majority, the time i am going to win the election, they have to work with me, the opposition, everyone. We needed to make a country our great country. But you need a party for that, dont you . What but you need a party for that, dont you . What is but you need a party for that, dont you . What is your base . I know that you . What is your base . I know that you own a very popular football club, and there is talk of you perhaps opening up a new satellite tv station, but what is your base . You know, my base is firstly the people of the congo. All the congolese people, they dont belong to Party Politics. There are some people which, they dont know what is Party Politics, and ive got a lot of Party Politics supporting me. Soi lot of Party Politics supporting me. So i know longer belong to one Party Politics. I want to belong to the congolese people. Having said that, you were a member until September 2015 of the ruling party, the Peoples Party for democracy, the party ofJoseph Kabila, is that in the elections in 2006 as a deputy in the elections in 2006 as a deputy in the national parliament, you won that election. So you are associated with the very person you now say you are opposing. Yes, you see, i was with president Joseph Kabila. If president Joseph Kabila. The with president Joseph Kabila. If president Joseph Kabila. The time i went to see him in 2014, and explained to him the respect the constitution, if president Joseph Kabila respected the constitution, i would not be supposed to leave because at the moment he doesnt wa nt to because at the moment he doesnt want to organise the election. President Joseph Kabila is betraying the people of congo. So i didnt wa nt to the people of congo. So i didnt want to betray the people of congo. That is why i went to see him, and explained to him, said, mr president , you have two terms. We need to respect the need for our country to have more investors to come in our country, and people to give us their trust. And they need to have a good partnership, also, with the international community, and the congolese people. You know how many people died before we had our first election . 0ver how many people died before we had our first election . Over 3 how many people died before we had ourfirst election . Over 3 million people. So i think it is a sad story. President Joseph Kabila is supposed to leave by a big door. Now i dont know if he is going to leave bya i dont know if he is going to leave by a small window. But the point making here is that there is a lot of talk in the drc other rich and powerful elites. And really, one could ask you whether you are worried about the perception that you are a member of that rich and powerful elite. Because, for example, you co founded and ck, the Mining Company for katanga, controlled by your wife karen. So like you concerned that people might think Moise Katumbi is another rich and powerful politician . think Moise Katumbi is another rich and powerful politician . I think what is making a difference, my father was a businessman. I had a business before i entered politics. When the party of president kabila asked me tojoin when the party of president kabila asked me to join them when the party of president kabila asked me tojoin them i when the party of president kabila asked me to join them i was a businessman. I had all my things, andi businessman. I had all my things, and i sold mck to a french company. It was a company which was doing well. I started a company when i was very young. He entered in business when i was 18 years old. I worked in a different country, i was in zambia, and also emerald mining, still my son is running that business. So i sold all those things. A transport company, and i dont refuse my past. President trump comes from a business background, and president s in africa come from also a business family. No, buti come from also a business family. No, but i am just putting it to you that, for example, i will give you a quote from a human rights group, global witness, which said in 2006, admittedly before you became governor of katanga, that the profits of mining in katanga are serving to line the pockets of a small but powerful elite, politicians and businessmen who are exploiting the local population and subverting natural riches for their own private ends. So that is the kind of thing that is being said. The report is from before i became governor. I dont have any money. Make company is moving equipment, not mining. But for the Mining Business. And for transport which since 1974, it was a family business. It is something which i had before and it is sad for me. I didnt want to join politics. I wa nted didnt want to join politics. I wanted to continue with business. I worked and it changed things. When i went to the province, i went with my money, i went with my knowledge as a businessman. Supposed to defend first my family, myself and other Business Community which i did in the province, became the first and best province in all of congo. The province, became the first and best province in all of congolj the province, became the first and best province in all of congo. I was just giving you the things that were said at about rich and powerful Business People in the prc. He said that within 2006 but kofi anand, former secretary general of the un, He Isa Former secretary general of the un, he is a member of the Africa Progress Panel and he described the world of mining in the drc is a world of mining in the drc is a world in which vast fortunes seem to be cumulated at the expense of the people. Again, do you feel uncomfortable a bit that you are involved one way or another, transportation or whatever, in the Mining Business . It is not the governor of the province that gives the licence. Is the minister. I was not involved. At the time i was in business, i was not a politician. My father was not a politician. I come from a family which worked and the people appreciated to have a governor. I came into politics to help the people. I never got my salary in politics. I was giving to all the poor people the contribution about the social programme in my province. All right. I have to put to you a strong criticism. From the paris based human rights group. He alleges that patronage was rife during the two bs government. He didnt run the province like a statesman but rather like the head Ofa Statesman but rather like the head of a household. Moise katumbi. Why president kabila doesnt want me to go back because the people want me to go back. The time i became governor, i was in a maize meal. It was a 45. When i was a governor, i went in agriculture, a did all my best to do road, everything, school, from 45 amazed went up. Since a left, and maize shot up to 50 per bag. Now we have a police guy who is getting 60. How can you manage to buy at bag . You need minimum of two bags. When i was governor, maybe he didnt fo