Executive will be voted into office in hong kong. Elected not by the people, but by 1000 or so members of the territorys economic and political elite, tied closely to the beijing government. And that is far short of the Universal Suffrage demanded by my guest today. Joshua wong was a teenage student when he became a leader of the so called Umbrella Pro Democracy protests that swept hong kong in 2014. Has beijing managed to neutralise hong kongs youthful rebels . Joshua wong, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. So thank you. 50 hong thank you. So hong kong is about to get a new Chief Executive. He will be selected, he will not be elected, by the general population. And that isa sign by the general population. And that is a sign of the failure of your Pro Democracy Movement, isnt it . dont Pro Democracy Movement, isnt it . |j dont think it is in favour of our movement. Because our movement is just motivated by the undemocratic system, which means, rather than allowing us more social selection, as you mentioned, it would be great for hong kong people to deserve democracy, with one person, one vote. Well, that is what you wanted. And you brought Tens Of Thousands of people onto the street in the late summer, the autumn of 2014, you demanded with both the hong kong authorities and by extension, frankly, with beijing as well. And of course, nothing happened. Regime did not give you a single concession. Three years ago we created hong kong history, with 100,000 people occupying on the street, it resulted in the Umbrella Movement. However, it is a long term battle for us to fight for democracy, against the largest authoritarian regime in the world. So from my Point Of View, it is a long term battle. We can win in the battle, what i believe finally we can win in this war cant win. That he is, someone said as a battle in which you shot yourself the foot. It was on offer at the time back in 2014 was at least the idea that, after a first round of selection which would be handled by the small coterie of elite people, then finally the two or three nominees that came out of that committee would be put before the people. But because you guys in the Pro Democracy Movement rejected that, that is not going to happen. So there is no sense of a popular involvement in this decision at all, and that is your fault. From the definition of the communist party of china, they would say that the china government will choose. Field candidates for you to elect election. But i would say that, if there is a Screening Process to deny 01 there is a Screening Process to deny or reject all of the pro democracy politicians to be the candidates of the elections, it is not a democratic election at all. So what will your view be of the likely winner of this Chief Executive race . Because we dont know yet, it looks as though carrie lam. Well, lets call it selection. Carrie lam, it looks as though she is the likely winner of this process. She is deemed to be close to beijing, she has already had a senior position in the executive of hong kong. Would you regard her as completely illegitimate, given the circumstances . Carrie lam being elected, it would be a nightmare at all. And i would say that he would be the Chief Executive of hong kong after the 26th Of March is not dependent on the hong kong people or hong kong elite. It depends on president xi. So whether the president of China Will Elect carrie lam, at this stage, no one knows. What we can do is just clearly request and uphold what we believe m, request and uphold what we believe in, which means democracy, and continuing to fight in the future. But just to be continuing to fight in the future. Butjust to be clear, you would regard the winner of that Selection Process , regard the winner of that Selection Process, and that hypothetically say it is likely to be carrie lam, you regard her sitting there with no mandate, no legitimacy whatsoever. It is lack of legitimacy from people, because we cant vote in an election. So how come we can say that the executive, which means the leader of hong kong, is representing hong kong citizens . So will you try to get people out on the street ain . To get people out on the street again . Because the issue here is what sort of amount you have, and indeed what sort of achievement is the Pro Democracy Movement can ever hope to garner what sort of momentum. Because we look at the record, and frankie, as i say, you dont appear to have achieved very much. Yes, i would say that the Chief Executive election day will be a date when we come out with Civil Disobedience and confrontation and protest again. But as you have mentioned, according to the track record of experience in the Umbrella Movements, even 0ccupy on the street, it can result with a positive gain. And at this stage, the hong kong people are still far away from democracy. But what i have learnt in Umbrella Movement is we cant only rely on street activism, but also get into the institution. That is why nathan law, one of the student leaders, has run in the election last year had been elected to be the youngest mp in hong kong. You are i think were sentenced by a Hong Kong Court to was at 80 hours of Community Service for your activities during the Protest Movement of 2014 . Yes, for participating in an unauthorised assembly. So you are telling the Civil Disobedience is on the cards for the day of the selection, march 26, the new Chief Executive. Perhaps you might organise street demonstrations, perhaps you might confront the police, i dont know. But how far are you prepared to push this . I mean you are a young man, you are a student, you are 20 years old. You want to go to prison . expect to pay the price for democracy. That is why before Umbrella Movement, in 2014 until now, i expected to one pushing forward the Civil Disobedience. 0ne day, i i may need to go into jail, but the fight for democracy, you need to pay the price for it. You are in london, with nathan law, you save. We have had him on the programme not too long ago. You two other poster boys, if i can put it that way, for the youthful pro democracy so called umbrella Protest Movement. I am just wondering, already faced threats. I have heard that you were threatened when you tried to travel to taiwan, you had a crowd of people who were Shouting Curses at you. Somebody a p pa re Ntly Shouting curses at you. Somebody apparently tried to punch you in the face at one point. Are you scared . Sometimes i am tired, or downhearted, but i know what ive done, and what i commit is valuable. According to a previous experience, being an activist in hong kong is not easy. As you have mentioned, while we have visited taiwan and back to hong kong, The Pro China, maoists and Gangsters Almostjust assault us in the airport, nathan law being the elected legislator has even been sent to the hospital. I have been blacklisted by the men in china government, and even last 0ctober china government, and even last october i visited bangkok and the thai governmentjust locked me and sent me to the detention cell, saying that, sorry, you are a troublemaker and we will not allow you to enter thailand. And after i took the flight back to hong kong, after 12 hours detained, the government officials just say that thailand will blacklistjoshua wong forever. You know why this is happening, dont you . You are seen by beijing as a threat notjust because you talk about democratic values, basic human freedoms, it is because beijing sees your Political Movement as ultimately threatening separatism and independence, and Thatis Separatism and independence, and that is something that is a red line which the beijing government will never accept. In fact, from the Point Of View of beijing, independence would have been a red line for them. And for my Political Party and myself, we do not advocate independence, and what we hope is to fight for general autonomy for hong kong. Yes, you see, this is where i dont understand your position. You say were not talking about independence, we are just took it of determination. What if you are talking about Self Determination and of course all options are on the table. You are leaving it to the iys table. You are leaving it to the joys of the hong kong people as to how they want to be governed in the future. One of those options has to be separation and independence or are you saying that is definitely off the table . I think we can answer this question in two aspects. The first one is the matter that Civil Disobedience orjust the moderates fighting for democracyjust like the former legislature, all of that are also being labelled as Pro Independence. So i would say that if beijing put a label on everyone and labelled them as Pro Independence activists, it is meaningless. According to your question, as well, Self Determination means that we are also part of the Independence Movement of hong kong. I would say that absolutely not at all. Well, hang on. In april 2016 you said i am not explicitly advocating independence for hong kong, art, you went on, we think independents might be one of the options. So come on, which is it . You either are or you are not prepared to countenance independence . I would love to answer this question, and i am not the one who advocate independence, but i would say that hong kong, being a former colony of the British Government, it will be usual for us to get the right to determine the sovereignty and constitution of Hong Kongin Sovereignty and constitution of hong kong Ina Sovereignty And Constitution Of Hong Kong in a Decolonisation Process Of Hong Kong in the last century. Hang on, you know that the basic law is there. The deal between the former colonial power, great britain, and china, or quite clear. The Hong Kong SpecialAdministrative Region was, in terms of sovereignty, an inalienable part of china. The most significant point is The Joint Declaration will have and expiry date, according to the policy, The Joint Declaration was signed in 1984, it will be in fermented since 1997 until 2047. However, what will be the situation of hong kong after 2047 . With the expiry date of The Joint Declaration, no one knows. And what we are afraid is, without referendum or without the authorisation of hong kong people, it will just result authorisation of hong kong people, it willjust result in one country, one system. You see no one knows what will happen after 2047, but i think it is quite clear everyone knows that china and letting hong kong go. I mean, that isjust inconceivable. In fact, kong go. I mean, that isjust inconceivable. Infact, most kong go. I mean, that isjust inconceivable. In fact, most hong kongers themselves, most people who live in the territory, feel that as well. And reuters did an interesting survey last year in which only one in six people in hong kong supported in any way, any sympathy for independence. The clear majority we re independence. The clear majority were against the idea, because hong kongers are realistic people, even if youre not. I would say that, being an activist, and also being one who leads a Political Party and organise the Election Campaign last year, i know the logic behind straight activism and elections are a bit different. Straight activism it is just necessary to get a critical minorities to supportjoint action. Before an election you need action. Before an election you need a critical majority to vote for you. But i would say that, according to the survey, as you mentioned, of course, the majority of hong kong people disagree on hong kong independence. But i will say that, no matter whether people agree or disagree on hong kong independence, what we hope is, after 2047 for hong kong, the political economy or cultural sector has the future arrangement of hong kong, it will be decided by hong kong people, rather than just an order from the beijing government saying it is time to put asidejudicial government saying it is time to put aside Judicial Independence, government saying it is time to put asideJudicial Independence, rule of law, and if you put aside without any pressure from hong kong, all without any reaction from hong kong people, it will just without any reaction from hong kong people, it willjust be a nightmare for us. Do you worry that you are being used as a puppet by countries hostile to china . I am thinking in particular of the united states. Not long ago you went to washington. You we re long ago you went to washington. You were received very warmly by senators, including marco rubio, former republican president ial candidate, who is certainly know not to bea candidate, who is certainly know not to be a great friend of beijing. And he saluted here, and he sponsored another piece of legislation that he wa nted another piece of legislation that he wanted to get through the us congress, which the chinese thought was blatantly anti chinese. Ijust wonder, there is a danger you are going to be seen as a tool in the pocket of the united states. going to be seen as a tool in the pocket of the united states. I dont think i will be used as a tool in the united states. Of course, for the united states. Of course, for The Pro China propaganda they will say that i am one of the cia agents, and that i am controlled or funded by the Us Government. 0r and that i am controlled or funded by the Us Government. Or even claimed that i am trained by the us marines, it is ridiculous. But referring to your question, i would say that what we hope is to get the International Committee to support hong kong Democracy Movement. It is not because only focusing on the moral reason. It is because the Us Government or uk government is the ones who signed off, and The Joint Declaration. So they gain the responsibility to monitor the implementation of one country, two systems. But theyre not, abe, looking at the allies you might want to have in the discussion with how hong kong can determine its democratic rights, the uk government isnt doing much, the us and government is now led by donald trump, who clearly sees his relationship with china in Terms Of Trade and currency but he really doesnt seem to put it in terms of human rights and democratic values. I still appreciate his phone call with the president of taiwan. Things are changing because mr trump says his administration is committed to the one china policy. Thats why theres uncertainty for the Trump Administration and thats why i would have more expectation in legislation rather than the administration. You say, ill have some hope of getting support from legislatures, but youre not getting support. In material terms, since you launch your umbrella protest, and now you have your own new party and now you have your own new party and a handful of representatives in the legislative council, tell me, in material terms, what level of support youre getting from around the world from governments and legislatures. We have to push forward to help the Democracy Movement in hong kong and in the uk we are questing and arranging a hearing in the parliament. In the us, as you mentioned, there is a cross party us, as you mentioned, there is a cross party bill which is called the Hong Kong Human Rights And Democracy Act and what we hope is it will be a Starting Point for the Umbrella Movement generation and what we hope is after the end of the Umbrella Movement, we want a positive result. China is now very important economically and globally, one of the two most powerful economies in the two most powerful economies in the entire world, do you really think you will rally International Support for democracy in hong k