Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20170504

Election, or people sick of it . The early signs are it looks as though it wont be dissimilar to what we had in 2013. The truth is, in 2013, the turnout was low, around 30 . It looks as though it will be another relatively low turnout election. John, thank you so much. Much more to come for you, that is it for the moment. It is time now for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. South africas anc was once seen as an inspirational model for africa. Now its becoming a watchword for infighting, cronyism, corruption and the dangers of one party rule. President jacob zuma stands accused of abusing his power notjust by his enemies but by many erstwhile anc colleagues. My guest today, fikile mbalula, was made Police Minister in a recent controversial cabinet sha keup. As the scandals pile up, are we witnessing the slow death of the anc . Fikile mbalula, in cape town, welcome to hardtalk. Lets begin with a simple question, there is no doubt the anc government is in crisis, who do you believe has the responsibility for that crisis . Well, i wouldnt say it is a crisis. I would say we are undergoing some challenges in relation to what is happening now. And i think it is a test of time, which has happened not only now, over a period of time anc has been tested. It has emerged victorious at each Turning Point in terms of its history. Well, you call it a challenge, i call it a crisis. I dont know what other word you could use when even the Vice President suggests that the actions taken by his boss, the president , jacob zuma, have been unacceptable. Well, the Deputy President can express those views but we must understand the president has his prerogative and they have been placed in those positions by membership of the African National congress to lead, even in difficult times, even in times when you dont necessarily agree with the decisions of the president or whoever. But it is President Zumas time and he is entitled to those decisions, and both by the guidance of the Anc Constitution and the National Conference resolution, to take a decision to reshuffle his cabinet after consultation. That is what the resolution says. Yes, but, minister, he isnt, is he, entitled to reshuffle his cabinet, to fire his respected Finance Minister and the deputy Finance Minister without proper consultation with anc and cabinet colleagues . And, according to both the Deputy President and the Secretary General of the anc, there was no proper consultation before mr gordon and mrjonas were fired . They are entitled to those views and to have dissent. They probably dont agree to the president , in terms of the shuffling. But the anc resolutions say that the president , after consultation, will basically exercise his prerogative. We have since reflected on that matter and both the Deputy President and the Secretary General have ventilated, you know, their displeasure about certain issues. But the ultimate end, we have cohered around the issue and we have accepted that we have to move on and continue to build south africa and make it a great country. A lot of people have not accepted that you simply need to move on. I am thinking of the highly respected senior and veteran liberation strugglers, they are in the Party Integrity commission, who, having watched the events of this catastrophic reshuffle, declared that president jacob zuma must go. Well, the Integrity Commission you are referring to has never placed any report before us. We know that there was an attempt to eject the Integrity Commission. We have equally reflected on that. There was no decision of the Integrity Committee that the president must go. There are some veterans in our country and in our movement who have over a period of time, for quite sometime now, taken a position that the president must go. Yes, indeed. Ahmed kathrada, perhaps the most respected individual who sadly lost his life recently, at the funeral, his own words from a year ago were read out from the congregation, which was a collection of the most senior and respected anc people. And when his words, a year ago, in which he said that it is time forjacob zuma, for the good of the party, to resign the leadership, when those words were read out there was applause and there was cheering. It is clear that jacob zuma no longer commands the support of many of the most loyal members of your party. It is not correct, equally, that the president does not enjoy support. The motion that the president must step down, it was tabled and it was defeated at the level of the National Executive committee. It was tabled in parliament and it was defeated. So, the question that some among us have got a different view, and they want the president to go, it is a well known, documented fact and it does not mean that a majority of anc members agree with that. We know as members of the anc that it is a National Conference properly constituted and that if not, branches of the anc, through two thirds majority, that can call for a conference basically asking him to step down. We are going to a conference of which President Zuma will step down as the president. That is happening in less than six months from now, going to the National Conference of the anc in december. Yes, well, you are talking about stepping down as leader of the anc, youre not talking about stepping down as the president of the country. And many in the country feel that this sense of crisis in governance cannot be resolved without the end of zumas presidency, not least because it is about something fundamental, the phrase we hear from your country so often, that is State Capture. There are so many allegations now of ways in which the zuma government has been captured by private interests, wealthy individuals, cronies of the president , in ways that suggest Decision Making has been fundamentally corrupted. Well, we know of those views but we know that the anc is not captured in any way, and we have also reflected, if you want to speak about the guptas as a movement, we have reflected about that at the National Executive committee. And indeed, we as members of the anc, and in particular the National Executive committee of the anc, were not guided by corrupt acts nor cronyism. How can you tell me it is clear that the zuma government hasnt been captured by these powerful private interests when we know that the former public protector, thuli madonsela, wrote a report which provided evidence that State Capture was happening, and that she said that we now need in south africa an independentjudicial investigation . That is a call that has been repeated in the recent past from Cyril Ramaphosa and yet you have failed to establish this independentjudicial inquiry. Why . Steve, you will know that as much as there seems to be an overwhelming view which is contested in our country, thulisile nomkhosis report is a subject of contestation. Remember, there was a long debate and argument around that, including the evidence that was supposed to be led and given by the president and by all those who were actually implicated. So, it is not correct to suggest that that report is cast in stone. The report is being contested by people implicated in the report. The fact is, when we hear of stories which have evidence base, of brown paper bags stuffed with cash being offered to politicians if they will do the bidding of, and you name them, they denied it, but you have named them, the gupta family, then it is clear that there is something rotten at the heart of the south african government, and without an independent Judicial Commission of inquiry i am struggling to see how are to convince anybody that the government is taking this seriously. If you talk about State Capture and you are not biased in relation to the guptas, you will be very clear that that report is under contestation. Those who gave evidence, and they were given Brown Envelopes, have come to the fore. Those matters will equally be tested going forward. That is in theJudicial Commission of inquiry that has to be established. That report equally is a matter of contestation. In terms of our laws. Minister, minister, minister, you are the minister for police, so i know you regard procedure as very important. I am really asking you a question about procedure which you are continuing to ignore. Cyril ramaphosa, the Deputy President , has said that this story of Brown Envelopes of cash being offered to politicians, it has basically become a problem, he says, for us in the ruling party, it is critical that these allegations of State Capture be tested and put to rest because they are, for us in the anc, the elephant in the room. So, this is a question of procedure, whether you are prepared to countenance an independent judicial inquiry. Are you or are you not . None of us in the anc have contested that, and none of us are complicit in the corruption. Cyril ramaphosa, the Deputy President , is articulating a principled position in which all of us as public representatives will condemn in the strongest terms any form of Corruption Including Bribery by anybody that would have been as reported in the State Capture report, it is what would have been undertaken. We have been very clear with that. There is no point about it. All i am saying to you is that the reported State Capture, as it stands in terms of facts, some of the people implicated are contesting the veracity of those facts. And if the Judicial Commission of inquiry will be established, the Judicial Commission of inquiry will basically give an open space for everybody to clear their names and those who are guilty to be dealt with by the wrath of the law. Well, because it hasnt been tested, i am not sure how you can assure me that no one in the anc government is corrupt or taking backhanded sweeteners, because the process hasnt been carried through. But what i will tell you is your assurances to me that the anc leadership is united are clearly nonsensical, because not only am i quoting to you Cyril Ramaphosa, who is demanding a proper investigation, listen to these words from the ancs parliamentary chief whip, Jackson Mthembu, he says, we in the anc are fractured to the core we are divided, we are busy scoring spectacular own goals, and all that we are concerned about is accumulating wealth as if there is no tomorrow. Yes, Jackson Mthembu might have expressed that particular viewpoint. His views in relation to the matters of corruption, they are not only a matter of concern. The state is intact. The state has actually acted against the corrupt people whether they wear our colours or not, the state has been firm with regard to dealing with corruption, what ideological colour you want, to make us believe, is that we anc members and leaders were implicit in corruption, we protect corruption, whereas that is not the case. We have acted at every turn in relation to matters of corruption as guided by our courts, and where the state organs have had to arrest, including members of the anc, they have acted without any hindrance. I am simply reporting to you the grave concerns of people inside your own party, that is why i call this a crisis for the anc. Let me try One More Time with you. Mathews phosa, former anc treasurer general. Hang on a second. He says this, we are not servants of the people any more in the anc. We have a president and we plead with him to go these days. My plea remains this, for once, mr president , serve your people and go now, because if you do not history willjudge you to be the architect of the destruction of the anc. Mathews phosa, Cyril Ramaphosa and whoever in concert, they are not anc. What . On their own right. There is a whole lot of disciplined numbers of the anc who you have not sought to express any view in the manner in which some of the views have been expressed. You are telling me that the Vice President Cyril Ramaphosa, one of the strugglers for the liberation of south africa, youre telling me, that Cyril Ramaphosa does not for you represent the anc . No, he is a leader of the African National congress, where im correcting you is that views expressed by individuals who are members of the anc dont necessarily represent what the anc, represent the position of the African National congress. If Mathews Phosa has got a view about zuma to go, he knows that that view is not shared commonly, it is not the view that the majority of members of the anc agree with. 0ne specific point, minister. There is still debate, and it is not yet settled, as to whether the next vote of confidence or no confidence injacob zuma in the South African Parliament should be by Secret Ballot. Those who want him to go believe that a Secret Ballot would give politicians much more freedom to express their real feelings about zuma. Let me put you on the spot, do you support the idea, the democratic idea, of a Secret Ballot . 0ur Constitution does not allow that in terms of the Voting Processes in parliament but equally, we have been tested to the limit. To think that the African National congress can actually take a position to take itself out of power, simply because the opposition wants that, we are here in parliament by a mandate of members of the anc but by our voters and we will never take ourselves out of power because they too, the opposition, would never do that. Minister, you strike me. crosstalk . If i may say so, you strike me as a bit like a Senior Member cabin crew on the titanic who is refusing to accept the ship is going down. It is notjust the opposition that are out to get mr zuma have you not noticed now that cosatu, the south African Federation of trade unions, and the south african communist party, which has always loyally lined up alongside the anc, both of those institutions now also Sayjacob Zuma has got to go. Have you ever seen people who have gone to the streets and equally said that the president must not go. They represent the majority in this country. This is what actually happened, the view that you are expressing is one sided. It is a coalition of forces, for whatever reason they have say the president must go, it is not the view of the majority. I tell you what i have seen ive seen opinion polls. crosstalk . Hang on. You asked me what id seen. Im going to tell you what ive seen. The latest tns poll in south africa shows seven out of ten South Africans Believe Zuma should now go. The Economic Situation since this disastrous Cabinet Reshuffle has taken a new downward turn. We have had south africas debt turned into junk bold status by snp. We have had south africas debt turned into junk bond status by snp. Weve got Economic Forecasters say this is going to be a disaster for the South African Economy. You have already got an unofficial Unemployment Rate of 50 . You are now supervising economic as well as political chaos. There is no political chaos. It is the wishes of others that seek to project a political chaos. And it is important that for everybody to come to the party, and to understand that it is important in the interest of all south africans and our National Interest to come around what is important around our country. The state of the economy in relation to growth and Employment Creation has been a matter that has been receiving our attention since 1994. Even the recession that we have come to witness has exacerbated the situation. In this particular instance, we are going to have to work, all of us together, to ensure that we get out of the Quagmire Ofjobless growth and an economy that has not been assisting us in terms of Employment Creation. The leaders of the South African Economy have looked at this downgrade, which followed the political crisis, and theyve said that the people who will suffer. And this is the words of. crosstalk . Hang on. This is the words of the Banking Association of south africa, the people who will suffer are the poor because they will feel the higher Interest Rates and the higher inflation. Im saying to you that those Economic Experts you are talking about, do not speak about them as though they do not have ideological vested interest in the political outcome of the south african situation. They do and probably those vested interest is to get rid ofjacob zuma. And those vested interest means that the state is core in relation to what the economy has actually been to the poorest people, must continue to be perpetuated. The zuma government that is leading is the one that talks radical Economic Transformation to intervene in the interest of the poor, to ensure we redistribute land and our people become the primary beneficiaries of that particular programme. Thanks to the reshuffle, you are now Police Minister. South africa has a terrible problem of internal violence and insecurity. I am wondering whether it was useful and wise for you in one of your first statements as the new Police Minister to talk about instilling new levels of fear in criminals, telling the police that if they are approached by violent criminals, the police should outgun them, meet fire with fire. You are not given your guns as toys, you told the police. Is that really the best way to address south africas massive Insecurity Problem . That is probably the best way to deal with Violent Crimes and violent criminals who terrorise our society, who are making our people to be gripped in fear of a Free Movement in our society. We are very steadfast and very clear in relation to criminals within the context of the law. Itjust seemed to me, minister, that there was something a little alarming, maybe threatening, about your words. You talked about protesters, you warned protesters not to do damage during demonstrations and you said, i dont want another marika na here, referring, of course, to the mass killing around the protest around the mine some time ago, i dont want another marikana, here, where Police Open Fire and people died. Suggesting to me that your message to protesters in the future is they might well face police who, to quote you, should not view their guns as toys. No, no, no, no, dont exaggerate situations. That message is directed to the right constituency of criminals, hardcore criminals, who are dangerous and think that they can run south africas life and hold everybody to ransom. I am very clear when it comes to protesters, we are upgrading our approach in terms of our pop units and i am saying that those units of the police that are supposed to deal with specific dangerous crimes, will not come closer to ordinary south africans who are protesting. Alright, well, minister fikile mbalula, we thank you very much forjoining us from cape town. Hello there. The Weather Charts for friday similar to what we have seen all week long. Drifting towards iceland. Low pressure developing. Easterly winds in between. Dusty. After a frosty start, scotland even Northern Ireland and england, a sunny day at head stop clouds thinning and braking. More sunshine than a recent mornings across parts of north wales and northern parts of east anglia. Further south, at the skies to start the day. Most will be dry, feeling cool in the breeze. Elsewhere, under the sunshine, at the temperatures will pick up the most. Southern area is breaking through the clouds. Cloud returning to east anglia. A grey and to the date but at least we shall see one 01 date but at least we shall see one or two more glimpses of sunshine. Warmest weather to scotland. Pool b the onshore breeze. By saturday, some rain coming towards cornwall and potentially the Channel Islands. More cloud across wales, northern england, north midlands, Northern Ireland, temperatures are holding up. A great start to saturday at but what is happening as we go into saturday, this area of low pressure will not uncertainty as to how far north it will get. But it looks like it will be cornwall and the Channel Islands with a few showers across devon. Cloudy for northern england, north wales and Northern Ireland. A brit brighter through the day. A bit. Brightness towards east anglia and the south east, a little less chilly even though it still rather breezy. The low pressure responsible data clear off into Central Europe is the go into sunday, opening the door to north Easterly Winds. Cooler on the northern and eastern coast. Cloudy at times. Plus majority dry. Best of the sunshine to parts of south and west. Low pressure remaining dominant. High pressure to the north and that will mean Easterly Winds will remain with us. It may bring something milder but also chillier north east winds. Most will stay dry. Im mariko 0i in singapore. The headlines applause for President Trump after Congress Takes the First Step Towards scrapping barack 0bamas Flagship Health plan. This is a repeal and a replace of 0bamacare, make no mistake about it. Three months after Donald Trumps bad tempered phone call with australias prime minister, the two men are to meet to commemorate a major World War Two battle. 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