Known for the buildings hes built, and the wives hes divorced. You dont want to cross him, though, because he likes getting even. And hes made it a rule that no one pushes him around ever. So how did he lose all his money, and then get it back again . Donald trump, a very warm welcome to the programme. You say you cant make an omelette without breaking eggs. That sounds like a very destructive business philosophy, is it . Well im not sure ive actually used those words. But generally, you have to shake things up pretty pretty much, in order to do something of consequence. And i have shaken things up, and ive had the best business years of my life, by far. How rough is business in new york . We hear a lot about, its the roughest, toughest, the most ruthless business in the world. Is it . Well i think the business tends to be tougher, maybe, than in other places, but im not sure its true. The Real Estate Business in new york is an amazing business. Its a great business. And any time you have a great business, you always have competition. And you always, have, unfortunately, the smart and the tough people coming into it. Do you have to be a killer in business . I think you have to be smart in business. I dont think you have to be a killer, i think you have to be smart. Does that mean eyes in the back of your head, always looking to is going to get you, put a fast one you . One of the things i say in the book, and i say very strongly, is you have to be paranoid. And the book is selling so well, and i guess people believe this. But there is a certain advantage to having a certain degree of paranoia. You watch, you can be a little bit careful, you watch whats happening behind your back. And i think thats probably very true in business. If youre paranoid, how much enjoyment is in that . How much time do you have were you can you actually sit back and say look what ive done, this is great . I think that there is great enjoyment. I think that paranoia cannot be carried to a life shattering crisis point. But i think its good to always know people are out there, and they are looking, and looking to throw you off your throne. But i think success brings great enjoyment, and certainly it has to me. Is it the competition that fires you up . Is it the money . What is it that gets you out of bed in the morning . What is it that drives you, here . I really think it is the artistic or the aesthetic. I love building great buildings. And the case most of my business is the building of things. I get great artistic pride that of trump tower, which is on 57th st and 5th ave, in new york, or Trump Internation Hotel in town, my new building on central park west. I get a great sense of artistic enjoyment at those buildings. What do you think of business business methods in the city . I mean, youve been in new yorker your whole life. What you think of the way people conduct business in the city. I dont think that new york is that much different from other places. What i do think is there is a Greater Energy new york. There is greater verve, or or a greater drive, maybe, in new york, than most other places. And really, than any other place i have seen. But i dont think that business itself is much different in new york than anywhere else. Greed, corruption, i mean, you say, its a Throwaway Line in the book, but you say greed is good. Well, i dont think that greed is good. As you know, they did the famous film with michael douglas, wall street, where greed is good. But that is not the case. I think greed is bad. I think you have to enjoy what youre doing. If you enjoy what youre doing, it will be successful, generally. If you dont enjoy what youre doing, it is almost never going be successful. Rich men are always targets. The richer you get, i suppose, the bigger the target that you present to people. How much does that worry you . Well i think that rich men, i guess, are always targets. Rich people are always targets. I think that theres a level of celebrity that i have obtained that its become so ridiculous, now, that makes me an even bigger target. So it always bothers me, but there is really not much i can do about that. Ridiculous in what way, the Celebrity Level . Well, its just become tough to go out. Its very tough to do things. Its tough to even go to a restaurant, in a sense, because its always shaking hands and signing autographs and things. And you know, it didnt used to be that way. That is a symbol of success, is it . Youre a victim of your success . It is, but its not a good symbol, necessarily. It causes lots of problems. Because you go out and you want to have dinner with a group of people, and it ends up being a big event, and there are people waiting at the entrance to the its just a very tough way to live a life, ifind. You talk a lot in your book about getting even, the importance of getting even. Is revenge sweet . I believe strongly in getting even. If somebodys hurt you, if somebodys gone out of their way to hurt you, i think that if you have the opportunity, you should certainly go out of your way to hurt them. And ive had more criticism about that one statement in my book than any other statement. The clergy has called, the ministers, the priests, the rabbis, they have all said thats a terrible thing to say, that is against our teaching. I just believe it. I believe in an eye for an eye. If you did turn the other cheek, as the clergy is presumably suggesting to you, what would that do to your reputation in business circles, here in new york . I dont know what it would do to my reputation. I just dont believe in instinctively turning the other cheek. If somebody was out to hurt you, if they want to do a number on you, i really believe that you should just do a number on them, if you get the chance. Can you give me an example . Well, there were people that i really helped in business. When things were very good in the 1980s, and my company was going good. And they did not lift a finger to help me when i needed it. And there were a couple of them that could have very easily helped me. Now i have the opportunity to do a number on those people, and i will tell you, and having a lot of fun with the opportunity. Who are the movers and shakers in this society . We get the impression, in new york, that power is in the hands of a few very, very rich people, yourself included. Decisions in smoke filled rooms . Is that still the way business is conducted in the city . Well, i think new york is very much run politically. I think we have a mayor, named rudy giuliani, who has done an incrediblejob in new york. And just got re elected. And just been re elected by a huge margin. I guess the largest margin ever. He has been an incredible mayor, he has done an unbelievablejob he has just been great. And so it starts off with the mayor, the leadership, the politicians. We have other people within the business community, obviously, that are very important, and are a lot of them. But the citys just become very, very hot. And i think it is due to rudy, and lots people in business, that have done such a good job. And i think it is due to rudy, and lots people in business, that have done such a good job. When you say hot, more focused . Its really become focused. Its just a place where Everyone Wants to be. People want to come to new york. They love the city. They want to be here. They want the action. You know, new york has action. New york is unbelievable action. Everyone wants to be here. And i happen to be the biggest developer in new york. My company now does much better than it ever did in the 1980s. What do you attribute that to . Well, i think one thing is perseverance. I mean, when things were tough at the beginning of the 90s, for me and every one else, the problem with me was i was getting all the publicity. The Great Depression, you call it, the 90s . I call it the Great Depression of the early 90s, because we were really in a real estate depression. And it was Real Estate N and retailing and airlines, and various other businesses, they were in a total depression. They werent in a recession. And i survived, and most people didnt survive. I mean, a lot of my friends, a lot of good people and bad people had go bankrupt. And you never heard from them again, and you probably never will hear from them again. But you know, i survived to a point where the company is much bigger now than it ever was, and much stronger, financially, than it ever was. And i wrote a book about it. But in the early 90s, you faced the possibility of losing everything. In fact, on paper, you had lost pretty much everything. I had faced the possibility of losing everything. And it i went back to work, i focused. I focused my mental energies, and all of my energies. You never thought of giving up . No, i think one of the reasons why a really succeeded and bigger than even in the 80s is the fact that its a little word called perseverance. I didnt stop. Its a long word, actually. It is a long word come to think of it. I didnt stop. I did persevere. I went up against a lot of odds. I came up with a phrase, survive till 95. That was in the early i990s. And it turned out to be right. Because the world changed, the economy changed, and there was a Survival Tactic until a certain year. And in 1995, things started changing. But i mean, it really started changing for me almost right at the beginning. I went back to work. I refocused my energies. How desperate were you at that time . How depressed did you get . To start off with, i really blamed myself a little bit, because ive always been able to pick markets. And i really wasnt focused was in the 80s. I was having too good a time, i was enjoying my life too much. Things are going too well. You dropped your guard . I did drop my guard. And it is no different from you if you do 15 great interviews, you know, on the 16th, you can take it easy because. That happens in life. Its a human trait. I did drop my guard. I put my guard backup and put my defences and offences more than i ever did in the 80s, and worked probably harder than i did in the 70s and 80s. And actually became much more successful. You had to believe in your own abilities. Wasnt there time where you thought i really cant hack it, i should get out of this, im not suited to this . There was a pretty depressing times. Because i owed billions and billions of dollars. 975 million or so was personally guaranteed. And that is a pretty deep hole. And when youre that deep in debt, youre mired in debt, and youre that deep in debt, thats a pretty rough situation to be in. And the vultures circling around you . Well, you had plenty of vultures. You had plenty of bad people circling. And some good people, frankly, that wanted to get paid. But it was just, it was Hunker Down Time as they say in georgia. And i did do that. Tell me about the women in your life, because there seems a sense in which, you say in the book, you have measured women by your mother . Is that right . I have a wonderful mother, a great mother. I dont measure women by my mother, but i have a woman and my mother who is a terrific woman. And ive been married to two very nice women, but itjust didnt work out. And i think part of that, one of the negatives to success is that there are lots of obstacles thrown in your way in terms of relationships. First of all, time. But even your own mental psyche. I mean, my thing is, im thinking about deals, and im thinking about these great buildings all over, you know, that im doing, im building the largest job ever approved by the new York City Planning Commission on the west side. You know, thats a thought process. Theres a lot of things that im doing and building. And think about that, maybe, as opposed to a relationship. And im not saying that in a positive way, im saying it almost in a negative way. Because its very negative in terms of relationship. And success may be great in terms of living and lifestyle, and Beautiful Homes and apartments, and boats, and planes, and all of this stuff that doesnt mean very but success is not necessarily very good for a relationship. Women are far stronger than men, you say do you really believe that . I believe that women are actually stronger than men. And i actually say that they are not so much stronger, but i think they are more aggressive than men. And their sex drive makes us look like babies. I think that the womans sex drive is as as good or greater than a mans sex drive. Ive been witness to it, and perhaps you have, if youre lucky. But sex drive of women is extraordinary. And they like to portray themselves as the weaker sex, but the weaker sex doesnt exist, believe me. I think they probably, theyre certainly the more aggressive sex. And even in business, ive found that some women are just more aggressive. And i dont exactly know why. And i say this with respect, i dont say this was scorn, with anything else. I say this out of respect. But i think the women, in many cases, are more aggressive than men. Youve seen that sex drive first hand. You talk about the woman of great social pedigree, and the dinner party you went to. Tell me about that. Well, ive had a lot of circumstances where a womans sexual drive has turned out to be just extraordinary. And not necessarily anticipated by me. And i write about this in the book. And its pretty good stuff. This this was a specific dinner, though, wasnt it . There was a specific dinner. What happened . Well, i would rather let the book speak to it, because to be honest, its almost embarrassing talking about it in a in an interview. Because it really is mostly a business book. But i think that women have a lot to do with business. Theyve a lot to do the effect on your life and how they affect your life. Theyve a huge amount to do that. She embarrassed you, though, this woman. I mean, you dont name her in the book. I dont. I would never name her. Somebody else wrote a book and named all the women that he had, as he said, conquered, and i. Playing with the feet under the table, wasnt it . Yes, it was. And it was a whole thing. And it led to something that was sort of interesting. And itjust wasnt a very good thing, especially with her husband sitting on the other side of the table. And there are so many instances like this. And i do talk about them in the book. And they are interesting, and it is not what the book is all about, but the book is about success, and, frankly, women so influence you and the world, and the world around you, that i devote a lot of time to women in the book. You said women have one of the great acts of all time, the smart ones act very feminine and needy, but inside, theyre real killers. Its almost as if you have a Love Hate Relationship with women. Well, i might. I have mostly a love relationship with women because i totally admire and respect and love women. I think they are incredible. I really do. I feel that there is. I feel that the smart ones are the ones that really go out and do it without waving the banner of liberation. And if you like the really successful women, those that have not waved that the banner, they have just gone out and done it. Two wives, that youve had, ivana and marla. What do you think of them now . I have good Relations Relationships with both of them. You have had fights. You were in an ongoing fight with one of them at the time the book was being written. I mean, well, see, iwould rather address that question sometime later because at this moment, umm, i have a very Good Relationship with ivana. I think i have a very Good Relationship with marla, but i will be able to tell you in a month or two. Well find out. Youve stressed the importance, though, of the prenuptial agreement, even though you say its a vicious and its an ugly document, and people who sign it are 50 more likely to divorce than those who dont. But yet you stress that this is the key to a happy marriage . Prenuptial agreements are ugly, vicious, terrible documents that you have to have. I mean, it is, umm, if you are getting married, and if you are a person of substance, a man or a woman of substance, you have to have a prenuptial agreement. And the reason is the word certainty. You need certainty over your business. You cant be going on for ten years fighting over a divorce settlement. You need certainty. You just have to have a prenuptial agreement. And even when you do, you have battles, as you have shown. Its not foolproof, is it . Even when you do, i mean, even when you have a. Well, prenuptials are pretty foolproof, but, they still fight. And people will still fight over prenups, i know people that have fought for more than their prenuptial agreements have given, they are legion. But, you know, the prenuptials are very strong agreements and hold up. Does it take the romance out of it . Yeah, it does. Its always hard to go up to somebody and say, look, i love you very much, but if and when we get divorced, this is what youre getting, so, you know, would you agree to that . Its always. Its always really tough. Its a very unromantic agreement. Theres nothing nice about a prenuptial agreement. But from a practical standpoint, and living in this world, and living through a very difficult court system, and everything else, i think its absolutely necessary for somebody to have one. And its so important that actually at some point i devote a chapter in the book to prenuptial agreements. So, you think that if you can sort out the finances, that somehow the relationship will take care of itself . I think that finances and relationships are very, very different. I think that finances, that great success, often leads to bad relationships unfortunately. I think that the reason somebody becomes successful is they focus on success, his or her success, not necessarily his or her relationship. But i think that there are times when both can work beautifully if you get the right partner. And getting the right partner is a very important thing in life. Having the right partner can be a very beautiful thing in life, if you are lucky enough to do that. Taking a breakfrom romance now . I think so. It is certainly not number one in my mind. I am having a lot of fun doing what i am doing. Itsjust not number one in my mind. Glad to be free . Yes. Available . Not that we are advertising. I think there is nothing like having a Good Relationship. I think having a great relationship is more important than deals and more important than everything else. I find that business comes very easy to me and a Good Relationship is more difficult. I have just found that historically its been the case. Most people would say its just the opposite, its easier to have a relationship. I think that a relationship is based on so many Differe