grip on power in south africa is listening. he will relinquish leadership of the anc at the end of year. and whether he will complete this as south africa's president is uncertain, as allegations of corruption pile up around this government. my guess to day it is thuli madonsela, south africa's public protector until late last year. she exposed a web of wiring connections between the state and big business interests. but are her concerns about to be buried? —— worrying. —— public protector. thuli madonsela, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for being here stephen. it is such a non—. hardtalk. thank you for being here stephen. it is such a non—i hardtalk. thank you for being here stephen. it is such a non-. i think we have to begin with that explicit report that you wrote and published before leaving the office of public protector last year. —— such an honour. the idea was that big business individuals had undue influence on the government. you wa nted influence on the government. you wanted a fully fledged enquiry to be set up within 30 days of your report's publication. seven months later, that has not happened. how do you feel about that? i am concerned that the commissioner for the enquiry has not been appointed. the concern is the uncertainty and the suspicions have created a certain level of this functionality within the executive. you saw some dismissals, including the whistleblower. —— disfunctionality. there is also a trust deficit at the level of the public. because of that, i would level of the public. because of that, iwould rather level of the public. because of that, i would rather that the pressure for the inquiry would have been appointed immediately. you give some interesting information there. do you make a direct link between the firing of the deputy fine and minister and this involvement in one of your key allegations, and that is that there was an effort to persuade him to take the finance minister's job with the offer of a huge amount of money as a sweetener, if he did certain things on taking the job. he refused to take the job, he says on that basis. —— deputy finance minister. he was then fired in march 2017. you see that his firing was directly linked? i am saying it is one of the factors. because the allegation, apart from that discredited intelligence report, was that the relationship had been soured, or the relationship was dysfunctional. and because of that, there is a linkage between the unhealthy relationship and what happened. the centre of this is allegations concerning two brothers, the gupta brothers, who have denied the gupta brothers, who have denied the allegations in your state of ca ptu re the allegations in your state of capture report. 0ne the allegations in your state of capture report. one way in dolby deputy finance minister, others involved some of their businesses in the energy sector. there were a raft of suggestions that you believed that the guptas exercise massive and undue influence overjacob zuma's government. is it still your contention today? all i stated was that there was evidence and a —— and it is a case to be answered. with respect, you would not have presented your report unless you believed there was a degree of credibility in the allegations. —— and there is a case will stopli believe and there is a case will stop” believe that there was a degree of credibility nudges in the allegations but any evidence that i uncovered. in the report, we include evidence of aj gupta, who spoke about his relationship ——. we also include cellphone evidence that puts people in the gupta compound several times and in proximity to their contentious affairs. one thing that is concerning is the allegation concerning the guptas and their influence, both white guptas and by the person they spoke to, in the end, when we said today? all the key players in a report absolutely deny the truth of undue influence, and without a commission of enquiry, led by an independentjudge, as you wanted, and caesar is no way of getting to the truth. 10096. wanted, and caesar is no way of getting to the truth. 100%. only wanted, and caesar is no way of getting to the truth. 10096. only a commission of enquiry will settle this. and also free the people that feel that they are unjustly accused. —— and it seems there is no way of getting to be true. jacob zuma says that you overstepped your powers, your constitutional powers,, as it was until last year, when you said the person who must appoint this independent authority at the head of the commission must be appointed by the commission must be appointed by the chief justice of the commission must be appointed by the chiefjustice of south africa. —— getting to the truth. jacob zuma's said that that is a presidential prerogative, and that you undermined those powers. the president is wrong that i overstep my powers. i said to the judge that they should be selected independently. i would they should be selected independently. iwould not they should be selected independently. i would not be used to bring powers if you are doing nothing. —— usurping. this had a potential to poison the waters. but if this was true, then a lot of damage was being done. he did nothing. if i am a police officer andi nothing. if i am a police officer and i say to do yourjob, i am not usurping your powers, i am exercising your powers, your stock is still yourjob. if yourjob is to drive off a parking lot, the police officer continue to do so, and that is not usurping it. would you make of the way that jacob zuma has hampered your report and its fallout in the seven months since you publish it? i think it has been honoured. odds? -- odd. ithink it has been very odd. it is detrimental to jacob zuma, to government, and to his son who is in business with the guptas. and also to the guptas. —— since you published. if the evidence we have is incorrect, in that the allegations are not true, it is best that this matter be investigated expeditiously and their names cleared. do you have faith that your successof cleared. do you have faith that your successor will fully and completely pursue the state of capture report and a thorough investigation of it? i have no reason to doubt my successoi’, i have no reason to doubt my successor, and certainly, also, it would be rude of me to comment about my successoi’, and would be rude of me to comment about my successor, and my predecessors never commented. i did, my successor, and my predecessors never commented. idid, however, make a never commented. idid, however, makea binding never commented. idid, however, make a binding decision that the next phase of the state capture investigation be done by a judicial commission of enquiry. because of the nature of the allegations and the nature of the allegations and the need for the public to be satisfied that no stone was left unturned. i don't think that any apec process at this stage would address the trust deficit amongst ordinary people. -- any part of the process. there are some things about your successof process. there are some things about your successor that suggest that you and she do not see things in the same way. for example, she seemed determined to investigate your release of audiotapes of one conversation you had with jacob zuma. she seemed to think was unacceptable that release those audiotapes, which, perhaps, to some south africans, means that she is more minded to view this from the interests of jacob zuma. also, she seems to have pursued an allegation against you that sometime ago your son was involved in an accident, when he was driving a car that was state property, which you did not offer compensation for, which i know, it you have since then that a statement of regret about. it seems to me that you and your successor are at odds. she has made her choices and i am not there to judge. history willjudge the two of us. regarding my son, my concern was that she prejudged it. after all the hullabaloo that she prejudged it. after all the hulla baloo and the that she prejudged it. after all the hullabaloo and the dragging of my name in the mud, she then came back and said she is going to investigate. i'm still waiting for the outcome of that. but in the meantime, avoiding all of this noise, i decided to pay... because theissue noise, i decided to pay... because the issue was not that my son did not drive the car and did not cause the accident. the issue was did i do anything wrong? and i thought it was improperfor me anything wrong? and i thought it was improper for me to anything wrong? and i thought it was improperfor me to bejudged to have done anything wrong when the rules... that the integrity of your position that you, and now she, in the rule, —— any role, is to be white on white. i wonder if south africa is now have a bit of a seed of questions about your integrity.” don't know what many south africans think. ijust know that i have never done anything to break the law. and on this one, that is why spoke out, to make sure it was clear that i never did anything wrong. i stuck by the principles. my son, under my guidance, had only use the car when i was there, because in terms of the rules, i was allowed to have anybody driving. and on that night, it was clear to everybody that i was not involved. we tried to get the car at 5am in the morning with my protectors, and the car was not there. for them to suggest that there. for them to suggest that there was anything i could have done to prevent that, or there was anything that they did to cause that, was improper. and at that stage, i thought it sounded militias. let's get back to jacob zuma. because in the end, he is at the heart of this question of government. —— malicious. there is a sanskrit has become personal between you and him. going all the way back to your investigation of the estate scandal, the degree to which you revealed that he had spent an awful lot of money in ways that were nothing to do with security, but, it seems, to do with personal enjoyment of his property. in the end, he had to be that a huge amount of money, i think more than half a million us dollars worth of improvements, he had to pay back. do you think that he now regards your relationship with him as personally toxic? he has not said that in me. i recall that before the constitutional court decided that my powers were binding, and that there was nothing wrong with the decisions i had made, i met with the decisions i had made, i met with him on a friday, we had a cordial relationship or meeting, he and his son, and we discuss the matter. and he said he was wrongly advised by lawyers. he did not give mea advised by lawyers. he did not give me a sense be responsible for what happened. because at that stage, he was now clear that he had a duty to have stopped this. because he had an opportunity after the media raise the alarm to stop it. it also, secondly, none of us has to benefit from government at the expense of taxpayers currently under what we are entitled to under the law. you think he is fit to govern south africa, today? that is not permitted determined. you are entitled to your opinion as a south african citizen. i would have an opinion it was just jealous, but as a former public provider, and as you say, this may be seen by some as personal, i do not express a view. —— protector. i do know that jacob zuma has done the best he could. it is up to south africans in the future when they choose leaders to decide who can operate in these complex conditions. asa as a result of the work you did investigating the allegations of these results, you received threats, intimidation, people were standing outside your house, chanting against you. i believe that one point you we re you. i believe that one point you were accused of working for the cia. i gather that you also faced death threats. what is your feeling about the comfort you have in your own country today, the security you have? i feel fairly secure, country today, the security you have? ifeelfairly secure, buti country today, the security you have? ifeelfairly secure, but i am concerned, because people who once called me a comrade, they have now said things against me. it was not nice. but that is the least of my concerns. the worst thing was that the government of south africa decided that it was going to investigate those allegations. another allegation was that i was working for the president of america to determine who hates america. why would they use need to spy against presidents, to find out who hates america? the south african government chose to give credence to those allegations, and that brings us those allegations, and that brings us back to president zuma. do you believe he was responsible for the intimidator ray actions against you? i will never know, but from what i heard from his advisers, at least during the uganda investigation, during the uganda investigation, during the uganda investigation, during the state investigation, they don't know. he has never given me a sense that he hates me personally. but i do know that he could have stopped it. at no stage did he ever haveit stopped it. at no stage did he ever have it stopped. the president did say that this must stop. another big picture result of the work you've done is a discussion about whether south africa's constitution is really working. going back to the days of writing that constitution, which you, as a postgraduate student, you actually became involved in the creation of the constitution. 0ne involved in the creation of the constitution. one of the main points is the separation of powers, the office of public rick victor is one guarantee of checking on the power of governments in south africa —— public director. i think it is clear what the judiciary does and what the legislature does. it was not always clear what the protector has to do. it is clear that they have the power to investigate in suspected improper conduct. but i always thought that you could not force people to do things, because you are not in charge. sorry to interrupt, but you very consciously left the amc before you took the public protect the job. i wonder whether you believe there isa i wonder whether you believe there is a danger, perhaps even now, that the public protect it office may become too closely allied with the executive —— protector. become too closely allied with the executive -- protector. it is important for the public protector not to be seen to be aligned to any political party. you are supposed to be agnostic. i can say that during my time, the office was politically agnostic. you say, during my time. what we have today is a very interesting controversy about comments made by your success. the relatively new public protector who, in recent days, has, in the midst of an investigation to an historic allegation of wrongdoing in a south african bank, has issued an opinion suggesting that the south african reserve bank should change its constitutional obligation to put protection of the currency at the centre of policy—making. she has suggested that in future, the reserve bank should actually focus more on delivering growth and equitable growth that spreads prosperity to a greater number of south african people. what do you think of her intervention in that way? she is making her own choices based on how she understands the constitution and the war. i don't think it's constitution and the war. i don't think its proper constitution and the war. i don't think it's properfor me constitution and the war. i don't think its proper for me to comment on that. would you have made that sort of thing? do you think that is pa rt sort of thing? do you think that is part of your remit as public protector? all i can say is that bad investigation has concluded and i was at the point where i should have signed a provisional report. during my time, the issues of the powers of the reserve bank was not an issue. did you see it as part of your remit? i would say that the complaints did not involve the powers of the reserve bank in this case. the complaint was... you think she overstepped when she waded into this argument? i don't know. a lot has happened since october last year. a complaints may have been lodged about the powers of the reserve bank that was linked with this. she may have come across issues... the former finance minister, you are trying to be diplomatic, but the former finance minister said it was nothing to do with her, it is so above her pay grade. what you make of that?m with her, it is so above her pay grade. what you make of that? is a he has the right to comment. right now, it would be rude to comment on my successes. i will not tempt you to be rude. but i am going to ask you about state capture. we talked about your report, it underpins so much of what south africans are debating today. how did do these allegations go? what is president zuma was to resign because of the allegations surrounding his government? would that be an end to it? or government? would that be an end to it? 0rdo government? would that be an end to it? or do you think that this concept of state capture runs much deeper than that in today's's south africa? the allegations and evidence, they suggest there is a very serious problems. however, the evidence that we have at the moment is really relating to president zuma, and aligned companies. therefore, when president zuma's term has ended, perhaps the story will be different. but i wouldn't say it would necessarily end, because it would depend on who comes into government. how do you and the presidency in a way that restores public trust? —— end. we need to have a public enquiry. ending with something personal. you were brought up something personal. you were brought up in something personal. you were brought upina something personal. you were brought up in a poorfamily. you are very much part of the liberation generation. as a young woman, you helped write the south african constitution. you worked in the public servers for much of your life. it seems to me that, having quit the public protector‘s offers, you quit the public protector‘s offers, you seem quit the public protector‘s offers, you seem very disillusioned with how south africa has travelled and you believe that nelson mandela's vision has not been fulfilled in the country. are you disillusioned?” has not been fulfilled in the country. are you disillusioned? i am disappointed with some of the decisions made, and i am disappointed with what is said by many people in power. i see a lot of activities that are taking place now that i'm making sure that we get out of this, and if you ask me what is going to be the future, two years from now, isee going to be the future, two years from now, i see a going to be the future, two years from now, isee a progress going to be the future, two years from now, i see a progress in south africa that is not facing any economic difficulties. i see us having a better state. we have to end there, but thuli madonsela, thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you very much. hello, there. we saw the peak of the heatwave on wednesday afternoon, with temperatures across southern britain soaring into the low to mid—30s celsius. it was 35 degrees recorded at heathrow, which was the warmest day of the year so far, but also the warmestjune day since 1976. wales also saw its hottest day with 31 degrees recorded in cardiff. further north, though, it is a little bit cooler, and we start to see a thundery breakdown developing, particularly across northern england and west scotland as we head into wednesday evening. that heat will continue to retreat back into the near continent as cooler and fresher conditions push in off the atlantic, with a fair old breeze. this introduction of cooler air into the heat will spark off further thunderstorms through the overnight period. mainly across the northern half of the uk, tending to ease down towards thursday morning. we'll have a lot of mist and murk developing across western coastal areas. it will be a touch fresher here, but still a warm and muggy start first thing on thursday. it means will be a warm and humid start in the south—east, but we will likely see a line of showers and thunderstorms move through the midlands and in towards the south—east during the morning period, and then clearing away. and then another ripple of showers and thunderstorms pushing in towards northern england and eastern england in the afternoon. so quite a messy picture. there will be some sunshine in the north and west — a bit cooler and fresher here. cooler and fresher in the south—east, 25 or 26 degrees. mid—20s instead of mid—30s. you will notice that difference. late on thursday, things will turn more unsettled across scotland and northern ireland, and that's because this vigorous area of low pressure arrives. this sets the scene for things becoming more unsettled from friday onwards, with cooler and fresher air pushing in off the atlantic. so we'll have some sunshine in the south and east on friday. further north, a band of rain moving through, and some of it will be quite heavy. the scotland and northern ireland, a breezy and windy day as that low pressure sweeps through. it will feel cooler and fresher, as well, with temperatures in the mid to upper teens celsius, here. we could make 25 degrees in the south east. into saturday, a breezy day, as you can see with these wind arrows. a few showers will develop, mainly across the north and west. the odd heavy one here. top temperatures 20—23 celsius in the south—east, so still feeling cool and fresher. sunday, winds will come down from the north—westerly direction, so it will be a touch cooler still across scotland. further south—east, we could make 21 or 22 degrees. so the main message is it's turning cool over the next few days. certainly over the weekend, it will feel cooler. fresher, with temperatures near normal for the time of year. it will be breezy with a mixture of sunshine and showers. hello and welcome to bbc news. i am david eades in brussels, where eu leaders are gathering for a summit with security issues very much at the top of the agenda, following recent terror threats and terror attacks. for britain's theresa may, it will be her first european summit since losing her parliamentary majority. hello. i'm sally bundock in london. in other news:: —— news: islamic state militants have destroyed mosul‘s historic mosque. the iraqi prime minister described their action as an admission of defeat.