Hardtalk. Hello and welcome to hardtalk, im shaun ley. A quarter of lebanons population is syrian, refugees of war. Now the party of my guest, deputy Prime Minister ghassan hasbani, says enough is enough. It wants to send them home but says it rules out talking to President Assad how can it be sure theyd be safe. The government say its a burden the undermines the countrys future is this the biggest threat or is it a political system that is entrenched sectarianism, legitimized bigotry and encouraged corruption so bad, it cant even keep the lights on . Hardtalk theme music. Ghassan hasbani, welcome to hardtalk, thank you for being with us. Up to 1. 5 million syrians have sought refuge in your country in the course of the war. About a quarter of your population now. How big a threat does that represent to lebanon . Initially, it is a huge economic and social burden on the country, no doubt. Lebanon welcomed all these syrians at the beginning, given the need, the humanitarian situation they were in. After a while and this is several years on this has. The numbers have increased significantly and they have placed a huge burden on the infrastructure, on the health care system, on electricity, on everything. The United Nations and dona countries have been able to support them on a humanitarian basis. Cause you do not allow them to work and they cant, in a sense, put down roots in your country. Well, its quite, you know, almost impossible to actually integrate them with the scale. Imagine like 20 Million People in the uk landing within less than four years, in the country. It is virtually impossible to actually integrate them at any level. So the International Community has been quite helpful in that. But the humanitarian level and the crisis is actually now turning into a more permanent situation with is causing Host Community fatigue, Donor Community fatigue, while the situation is gradually improving in syria. Its time now to start thinking about how they can safely return back home without causing any potential tensions or further tensions by being in lebanon with such a big scale. Yes, i mean, your party leader, samir geagea, has said just a few days ago, after several years of residency, some refugees have started to act as if they own the place. I mean, patience is running out, by the sound of it. Well, it is quite natural that, when you have such a great number of people some towns in lebanon, in the north, in the beqaa, the ratio has actually reversed, a quarter of the town is lebanese and three quarters are refugees or syrian displaced people. So you can imagine the social tensions that that could cause. 50 of them are unemployed youth, 50 of the youth are totally unemployed, and this number is increasing so that is causing significant tensions. Part of it, you could argue, is because you wont let them work, and you wont let them do anything productive to contribute to the community. I mean, if you have lots of people hanging around cause theyre not allowed to work, that creates social problems in itself. Lets put it this way, the Youth Unemployment among the lebanese is at 30 already. Right. So it is not about not letting anyone work, its about the lack of of availability of Work Opportunities for everyone. Lebanon was already under economic stress. Are they taking some of the work away . I noticed your colleague, george adwan, saying recently a fellow Lebanese Forces mp, your party saying that unfortu nately, our syrian brothers are taking more Job Opportunities away from the lebanese. I mean, i wonder how thats how thats happening . Well, indeed, illegally, basically the Black Market Ofjobs and there are some mundane jobs that theyre doing. Some lebanese are exploiting them. In general, the syrians had always worked in lebanon, in specificjobs that the law allowed them for, but now we see them in morejobs like more specialised jobs, in the Healthcare Sector for example, where it becomes a bit dangerous also to work uncontrolled. Trouble is, though, isnt it, that part of the problem in the sense that kind of adds to these difficulties is Policy Decisions government takes. The unhcr says Policy Restrictions On Residency Renewal Effect the basic rights and freedoms of refugees, of all nationalities, but obviously mostly thats lebanese, some palestinians as well. Livelihoods remain one of the big challenges faced and, in a sense, that policy heightens the risk of exploitation as the Human Rights Watch the Non Government Organization has pointed out, in its report this year, heightens the risk of exploitation and abuse. So you create a situation where people are there and theyre there and you cant do much about it at the moment, but it kind of institutionalises the sense, for them, a kind of uselessness, and for your own people, resentment. Here they are, they are not doing anything, how are they living . Who is paying for them . Maybe im paying for them. The situation is much worse than that. It is not about the lebanese resenting, its actually the Syrian Refugees receiving Financial Aid perfamily, per child, benefit, hospitalisation, medical support, receiving food rations and food support as well as using lebanese electricity and infrastructure, so it is not aboutjob creation, it is more about a lebanese wanting to go to hospital and finding that this hospital is more than 50 used by Syrian Refugees, paid for by someone who pays quickly, while his services are kind of less provided than the refugees. We have not reached a point where this resentment is actually causing tensions at the extreme level, however this could lead to a situation where both sides, both the refugees as well as the lebanese, start getting the fatigue element. I mean, you say you havent reached that stage yet but you would have seen the reports that were on social media a little bit before we recorded this interview, a group of men physically and verbally assaulting a syrian refugee. The group, i understand, have been arrested by your Security Forces now. The video, which kind of spread like wildfire on social media, showed a man called uklah, from Eastern Province in syria, being kicked on the ground as he begs this group of men to stop. They shout and swear at him, they demand he praises the Lebanese Army and curses the group that calls itself islamic state, and the syrian people. There was voice note, also, going around urging lebanese to beat syrians. It is already there. The opposite was there actually. We have a lot of syrians actually cursing at the Lebanese Army, attacking the Lebanese Army verbally, et cetera. So tensions are rising on both sides. Right, so we accept that your solution, your suggested solution at least the one your party leader has put forward, mr geagea, is that they should go home. And you are going to put proposals to the cabinet of ways that you think that can be achieved. What sort of thing are you suggesting . What sort of things are you looking at . Lets start first, the safer areas in syria exceed in scale and size and surface area the surface area of lebanon by about 60 times, so there are several safe areas now in syria they call them safe zones or areas or regions and lets also be careful about. Where these people come from are different parts of syria, so the areas where they could go back to home, they can. Some have actually been going back home and coming back to lebanon because the border controls have not been 100 airtight. So it is about having the right structures for them to go back safely and we want them to go back safely, this is a very important point it is not about forcing them to out of lebanon, its about making the right steps, the right policy steps to safely have them return, with the International Community support. You do not have that, at the moment. Do you . Because sigrid kaag, shes the Un Special Co ordinator for lebanon, said that, in the beginning ofjuly, whether or not will be possible to have in syria, in the nearfuture, areas where refugees will be willing to go back, we seem to be very far from having it because the situation remains very fragile and the conflict continues in a very dramatic way. I mean, youd accept that, wouldnt you . She is the expert. It is something to be discussed. I guess, you know, it depends, because the group of refugees, they are not all from one colour or one side. What is safe for someone may not safe for another. They can decide where to go back to, but if the economic situation. This is very interesting, you say they can decide. Let me point out an example, that the human right watch pointed to in its Country Report of lebanon this year, and in a sense, forgive me, but its slightly undermines the peoples confidence in whether you are really that bothered if its safe for them to go back. It says, injanuary, 2016, lebanese authorities, in violation of their international obligations, sent hundreds of syrians, travelling through Beirut Airport, back to syria, without first assessing their risk of harm upon return. Ok, lets backtrack a little bit. Youre not disputing that happened . People passed through the lebanese airport because not many syrians can actually fly directly to syria, so they pass through Beirut Airport and thy drive through to syria, back and forth. Millions of syrians do that, they are not refugees, they live in syria safely. They drive through, they fly out of Beirut Airport because Many Airlines do not fly directly to syria. So technically and physically and practically, there are safe areas in syria for many people to go back and forth through the borders. Clearly, if that was the case for this group, then they would have been going back and forth on their own. They have been. Well, the Human Rights Watch says in this case, they were kind of effectively forced back without any consideration. Nobody forced anybody. You dont accept that . 0k. You see, the other point is you are not signatories to the Refugee Convention, from 1951 anyway, as a county, so you have not sort of formally committed to the International Standards and another reason why people are a bit sceptical about whether they can take your word on this. Lets put it this way. Imagine, as i said, more than 100 Million People coming from syria or from Anywhere In The World imagine the scale to europe. This is the kind of scale per population were talking about. Largest refugees per population situation in the world, so norms, as the world applies, cannot be applied there. This is an international problem, its not a lebanese problem only. So the world is not doing enough to support you in this . The world has to work first on making sure that there are secure areas in syria for them to go back. It is not a pure lebanese problem, it is also a european problem, and an international problem. Presumably then you are not wildly happy that donald trump has decided that syrians are a nationality he does not want coming into the united states, cause again, that adds to the burden back home. Well, the burden is being added anyway. What were saying here. So its alright what the americans do . What were saying here is it is important for the International Community to take this step and make sure, one, that there are really safe areas in syria, because we have seen evidence of people going back to syria safely, without any problem, and any Refugee Convention will tell you that an individual who can go safely back home is not considered as a refugee any more in the country where they applied for refugee status. Will you work with President Assads government to ensure that they can return safely . Lets also talk about that, there is no guarantee that these groups of people who are in lebanon feel safe in the assad regime areas. Their safe areas might be outside of the assad regime. This is still the government of the country. If you go ahead and do it without the involvement of the government and, lets face it, as your own party leader has acknowledged, you have relations with the Syrian Government for security reasons. Your Security Services co operate, mr geagea has said that himself recently. Allowing for that, why notjust say, ok, we will deal with that, we may not like him, but if we want to reduce this burden on our own population, then sometimes you have to deal with people you wouldnt choose to otherwise. Just to show you how serious we are about the safety of these people and the safe return of refugees thats one major element. The safe return requires people to return to areas where they feel safe to return to. And if they were part of the opposition and lets face it, the opposition has started a long time ago, way before any Terrorist Groups moved in syria, and have started acting in syria, this is a legitimate opposition. So if those people do not feel safe going back to the regime areas, how can we actually talk to the regime about sending them back to them . They might be persecuted. They might be put in danger. And the International Community is not even ready to share their names with the Syrian Regime. Will the unhcr share their names with the Syrian Regime . If the unhcr cannot do that, why should we be doing that . Were saying, we are being very logical and very practical about this. There are safe areas, they can choose to go back to them. They can choose, no one will be forced out of lebanon . Lebanon has actually. That is a yes or no question. Lebanon has agreed to the non refoulement principle so people will not be forced out, but we have to be also logical. There is always a but. Let me explain the difference. If you are actually incentivising them, giving them a big cash and financial. Are you going to bribe them to go home . No, no, youre giving them an incentive to stay in lebanon, the International Community is putting a major incentive for them to stay in lebanon. They are getting all these Unemployment Benefits effectively, family benefits. Better to kind of give them nothing so they get so desperate they go home. No, no, and that could also pu them in danger. What we need to do, again, being very illogical about it, starting to build the infrastructure for them where they can actually go back in safe areas and gradually give them this opportunity to start feeling. And it is a humanitarian thing to be back home. So the honest message you are sending to people in lebanon it might not be individuals, it mightjust be the volume they are finding too difficult to deal with, because sometimes syrians are welcome, sometimes not, we wont talk about the military, is that you will send them home, but it is going to take time. It is not going to happen over the next month, the next year. And plan we put together, its not something that happens overnight. But we need to start working on it from now, because we have like 32,000 new births in lebanon. A lot of them are not registered, so basically, how are they going to be recognised as syrian citizens later on . I understand. We are dealing with that situation right now, to make sure they get recognised. Your party leader, michel aoun, says it is ridiculous to ask you to work with President Assad, yet at the same time in government with hezbollah, who are fighting with President Assads side. This must be straining relations, not least when your political system is so finely balanced. Look, we have formed a Coalition Government that includes all constituents of the lebanese society. And we have made sure that the Government Manifesto and the plan, which we call the return to confidence, and we have made sure that any points we do not believe in are actually either opposed to, or not included in that programme, including the situation that hezbollah has actually put the country. We do not agree. Although we are in government, it is a Coalition Government, but we reserve the right not to agree for anyone to carry arms in lebanon except the police, army, and no one to defend lebanese borders except police and army. And i suppose some of these compromises risk undermining the state itself. This is what David Schenker at the Washington Institute wrote earlier this year. Aoun continues to defend hezbollahs possession of weapons outside state control, and its resistance agenda against israel. Again, all these outside influences compromise what you can do as an independent sovereign country. Our Main Objective is to keep the country sovereign, independent and safe. That is the problem, with all of these people outside pulling the strings. There has been a lot of influence in the past. But we managed to agree on an election rule, we managed to agree on a budget,