With me, zeinab badawi. Few issues are as controversial as abortion when it comes to addressing womens rights. Pro life campaigners believe that womens right to control their fertility does not extend to abortion on demand. Injanuary, President Trump blocked us federal funding for organisations that provide or promote abortions. One such organisation is the ippf, the International Planned parenthood federation, which will lose millions of dollars as a result. My guest is its ethiopian born director general, tewedros melesse. Does he believe that the ippfs support of abortion mean it is right that it should forfeit Us Government funding . Tewedros melesse, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you, zeinab. What does the loss of us funding mean to you . Well you know, i take it from two parts. One is that the us has been the greatest contributor to developmental assistance. Now, today, the trump is cutting by 17 to 18 all development assistance. And when it comes to sexual Productive Health and rights, the cut is specific, which is saying that you cannot take our money and with your own money or Somebody Else money, you cannot conduct abortion. But what does it mean in practice . What is it is there anything that you are doing now that you wont be able to do as a result of the loss of us funding . And i think the figures are your annual budget is about 175 million and the us funding amounts to about 35 million a year. What the issue is, we have never used in the the previous administrations, we have not used us funding to talk about abortion, or perform abortions. Never. Because that was a caluse of the us funding. What this administration is telling us, even if it is not with our money, if it is with Somebody Else money, whatever the conditions, you cannot refer a client for abortion, you cannot advocate for abortion legalisation, you cant do any of that Somebody Elses money. But hasnt that been the case in the past with president s . Ronald reagan introduced in 1984 the mexico city policy, whereby us federalfunding could not be given to any organisation which promotes or provides abortion. Yeah. That has been the case. The difference now here is that it is extending to hiv aids related activities, and to the zika virus, now which is coming. For when we lose. How does it affect the zika virus work that you do . Well, they have, you know, the promotion of condom legalisation, talking about, if its necessary, the health of the mother, or the child is going to be affected, you have to talk about abortion. If the woman wants, you have to be able to refer. So it is going to affect your work on hiv, for example . It is not going to affect the ones that are contractual, it is on course, now. But when it ends, what does it mean . It means losing 100 million over the next three years. When you calculate, although the programme is saying is save lives, it is going to be affecting 4. 8 million pregnancies unwanted pregnancies and 1. 7 million abortions. Mary stokes, the Family Planning organisation, says that as a result of this trumps policy, that there are going to be 22,000 maternal deaths in his first term. You dont really have any idea of what the outcome would be in terms of figures like that. Theyre just startling, arent they . You just want to make people sit up. You dont really know. We know it. We have lived it. I will give you some examples. A girl in uganda, she was 16. She become pregnant by a relative. She was raped, forced. And she couldnt tell her family. She couldnt go to a doctor. What happened . She took, or you know, herbal medicine, and she died. Her mother didnt know because she did not tell her. And these are the kinds of matters of mortality, in some of the countries you can take. Like in mali, it goes to over 500 500,000. Those are the the kind of maternal deaths in those in countries where abortions is illegal. There are more than those in which is legally. Than Backstreet Abortions that result in harm to the females health . Of course. Exactly. But the fact is, of course, that you see this is an imperative that you continue to do the work that you do. But do you not think that there is such a thing as a pro life lobby, and donald trump is part of that, and he stood for office as a pro life candidate, and that he is entitled to that opinion . And infact, injanuary, his Vice President , mike pence, when he attended a pro life rally, said life is winning again in america. I mean, they they have their views. They are entitled to them. Yes, yes, yes, i respect their views, but the thing is you cannot impose your view on Somebody Else. The sense of democracy, in a country that says its a place of democracy and an example of democracy, cannot impose a different view on Somebody Else. But you cannot impose your view on a president who has part of the decision to make on how the his taxpayers money is used . Well, you know what . I never agreed. I never agreed that this group is pro life. In fact, it is us who is pro life. Because we care about the life of a woman. We care about the life of a girl. You know, those who are between ten and 16. There are over 124 million who are not in school because of early marriage, sexual abuse, or uninformed decision to have a baby. All this is we care about the life of a woman. But its notjust that, is it tewedros melesse, with all respect . Because you are encroaching on ideological territory. Youve met stiff opposition, for example, from the Catholic Church in peru, in latin america. Ill give you just one example of the criticisms that are made. Carlos samaniego, director of latin americas Population Research institute, has looked at groups that you back in these in latin america and he says that these groups are using the funding to lobby politicians and change public opinion. Youre lobbying, youre advocacy groups, youre notjust involved in providing healthcare. You know, there is a difference between the lobbying and the advocacy. What we do is we work not as we call ourselves locally owned, globally connected. In peru, its not our office in new york which is going there. Or we dont go from london. Its the peruvians. Its the peruvian association. But theyre affiliated with the ippf, the International Planned parenthood federation. Yes. Of which you are the director general. Oh, yes. So these are groups acting with your blessing. Yes, we are connected. But the thing, you know, zeinab, a womans movement, is its prerogative is it started in europe, america, india, africa, everywhere to tell me today it is the west that is bringing something else, it is really very arrogant. I didnt say the west. Not you but the way it is presented is a foreign ideology. No, i didnt say that, and i should make it clear the ippf has about, what, 170 countries as members, and you are you work in partnership with the united nations. You are a very bona fide organisation. Yeah, but the question is, are these doing it to fight for the right of a woman to make a choice, to be informed of what is the consequence of having unwanted pregnancy, knowing that she can use contraception . Is it a crime to legislate that a woman, taking into account her personal condition, her social condition, has a free choice . But there are people that have a different opinion. Yes. From you, and therefore all im saying is you may disagree with them, but do you respect their Point Of Views and say, 0k, President Trump, i understand why you have taken this decision. We will either find a different way of doing what we want to do, but we respect your decision . Do you respect people who have a different Point Of View to you . You know, you can respect, but you can disagree. And we have to fight to show there is a reason. So youll still lobby people like. Are you still lobbying people like President Trump . Are you lobbying . I dont say lobby. Advocacy. Advocacy and showing. You know, what is amazing, zeinab, is, in the united states, abortion is legal. Why should this administration say no, it cant be legal in ethiopia, or in peru, or in chile . Keep your democratic institutions, respect our decision. Democracy the basic essence of democracy is to respect one another. So is your american chapter, then, trying to change the mind of the Trump Administration . Trying to change, getting the alliance correctly, and getting as many people to back them as they can. Because this is a fight. You know . In the fighting, there is not nicety, unfortunately, be we will respect the laws of the countries. Its notjust abortions that you have issues with. Because i mean, you work to promote womens sexual and reproductive rights. You also campaign against things like early marriage, for instance, which is very common in your native ethiopia. You know, the effects of the fgm, female genital mutilation, and so on. But in trying to tackle all these problems, you are trying to challenge very deeply embedded religious and social conventions. It is very, very hard to do that. Believe me, it is not as hard as it is. Because the communities, they know. For example, in pakistan, we are working with religious groups. They are the ones who are teaching them what the rights of a woman is. How imposs how challenging it is for an early marriage. It doesnt mean there is no opposition. But there are religious leaders from the christian side, also. From the Catholic Church. I visited a monastery, of which is run by nuns. In pakistan, youre talking about . Still . No. Youve have moved from pakistan, yes. In pakistan, the islamic scholars they are teaching how to respect each other, how to respect a womans life. In. So your point is you are getting some religious leaders on your side. Oh yeah. To say, look, early marriage, not good. Right. So it is not as difficult as people make out. It is the politicians who are complicating the thing and trying to gain support they are using all the political. In america, people believe in, you know, their own religion. But The American Constitution Respect the right of the individual and the right of the woman. But nevertheless, you do meet challenges along the way. In africa, for instance, a woman seeking contraception is seen as promiscuous, and not accepting the will of god, if shes married and having as many children as she may be possible as she may be able to have. I prefer to look at these positive side. There are challenges. Look, in southern africa, and eastern africa, the contrast of the Prevalence Rate is over 25 . The more you go to the southern, this gets to 50 or 60 . This was not the case 20 years ago. To achieve the mdgs, that is the reduction of the. The Millennium Development goals. The Millennium Development goal. Many african countries have committed their resources. During the recent Family Planning summit, many african government the ugandan government, the tanzanian government, the ethiopian government, they have committed the Nigerian Government they have committed themselves to making Family Planning services available. Is it enough . No. Because worldwide, there are Something Like 200 million women who dont have access to contraceptives. Yes, exactly. But the commitment is is there. The commitment is there by the government. There are challenges. There is the issue of accessibility, the information, the affordability, the consistency of supplies, the training of people, the choices of individuals. So you have a positive attitude . Oh, yeah. Is your attitude so positive that it takes you to conflict areas where you also champion womens rights, but you find yourself in an uncomfortable position. For example, in syria, youve been working with Government Forces to help women with their sexual reProductive Health rights. And yet we hear about the rape cases in Syrian Government prisons that take place. So are you not collaborating with a government, a regime, that is actually responsible for the degradation and abuse and exploitation of women . We are not partnering with the government. What we are saying is. But you are operating in government held areas. Yes, and even outside we are working for those displaced in jordan, those in lebanon, for the syrian refugees. But in areas of conflict. You say you want to help women in crisis, including in conflict, so you are working in government held areas in syria. Including those areas controlled by the opposition. You mean so called Islamic State . The red cross agree, the red cross, red crescent, agree with any government, what it is doing, but operating in a country which is in conflict to make services available, including for women who are raped, to give them counselling and therapy. You mean in areas held by so called Islamic State . I dont know what the Islamic State controlled area, but rebel groups, lets call them that way. They might be. They might be. Islamic state. So you have no problem with working with so called Islamic State when we know they have been selling women, yazidi women, as Sexual Slaves and so on . We are not endorsing the group. What we are saying is those displaced women, girls and young boys, they need education. The torment they go through. How do you operate in practice, though, in such areas . In areas that might be controlled by is or by the Syrian Government . The difference between us and other organisations is. We dont fly from london. They are there. The community there. And those people, they operate within the context of their country. We are not interested in providing and supporting emergency or disaster situations, but we are forced to act in such a situation. We are providing for over 3 million people, you know, just until 2016 i mean the displaced populations. I want to look at another controversial area where the ippf has worked. You worked with a chinese Family Planning association, right through beijings One Child Policy. You yourself in fact visited china in 2013 and met the Prime Minister li keqiang. Yes. Did that not make you feel uncomfortable, though . No. A country thats got a One Child Policy, forced abortion . We state clearly our position. When we met the Prime Minister of china, we put clearly what we call vision 2020, which puts very clearly the choice of the individual and the woman is very important and Sexual Productiveness has to be of free choice. He endorsed that and he said, you will move on forward. Immediately after that well set the two child policy. That was changed in 2015. Yes. We made it in 2013. You made a statement welcoming it. Exactly. What we are saying is we are not working with all the governments that we agree entirely. We engage with them, we make our positions very clear, our associations, even the fact that choice, individual rights, they are written on a placard in the clinics, that we provide services to Immigrant Populations in china. But women in china have no choice. You say, look, i went in 2013, i met the Prime Minister, i said you shouldnt have this One Child Policy, it changed in 2015, thats fine. But you know what your predecessor, as director general, jill greer, did and what she said in 2009, in china. This is what she called chinas One Child Policy. Its very conducive to chinas development in various aspects, including in the realm of health care services. Thats not a statement which is wise to make, is it, really . Well, you know, the thing is, the Chinese Government has come up with that position. We have expressed that we dont agree. But she sounds like shes endorsing it. Well, she is putting rather the contextual situation of the country. You know . But, for us, the choice of the woman getting the appropriate information. 0ur Engagement with them has made a transformation, a change. We have contributed to change. Is it enough . Is it adequate . No, we have a long way to go, even in countries where the whole democracy there. Like in dublin, Northern Ireland. But you are cooperating or in partnership in a way with china, even though you say you dont agree with what they say and what theyre doing with their One Child Policy. This is what a womens group called womens rights without frontiers has said. Its an international organisation. This is a view. While posturing as a champion of choice, the ippf has in fact been working hand in hand with the Population Control Programme in china almost since its inception. Forced abortion is not a choice. We have never agreed. I will never agree with forced abortion. Thats very clear. But, do we engage with governments with whom you disagree . Yes, we do. Do we agree with 160 countries around the globe . No. There are areas where we dont agree. But do we protest and go and pack and go . Its not like we are going from london. Its the local. No, i understand, its the local Family Planning association. Exactly, and we engage with them. But fo