Its about 4 30 a. M. , youre up to date on the headlines. Now its time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. President Emmanuel Macrons bold promise to break the political mould in france has collided with reality. His reform plans, from tax to pensions, have stirred a backlash against what protestors call his neoliberal elitism. And as his internal problems have mounted, so too have doubts about his ability to be the eus visionary leader. My my guest today is gabriel attal, minister for youth my guest today is gabriel attal, ministerfor youth and my guest today is gabriel attal, minister for youth and a rising my guest today is gabriel attal, ministerfor youth and a rising is in the president s party. Why has the macron magic worn off so quickly . Gabriel attal, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Whats gone wrong . Halfway through his term, president macron seems to have lost the faith of the french public. No, i dont thing so. President macron was elected in a very tormented situation. You had almost 40 of the voters who voted for extremist parties. He was elected in this situation, and we always knew it would be hard, and we always knew it would be hard, and we always knew it would be hard, and we always knew it would be difficult to transform the country and to set up the reforms we we re country and to set up the reforms we were elected to do. So, right now. You talk of a tormented country back then at the time of his election, what about now . The country looks even more polarised, divided, tormented. I wouldnt say that. I would say that what weve seen in france, for instance, with the Yellow Vest Movement is the first of the cover of the pressure can that had been bubbling up for 30 or 40 yea rs. Had been bubbling up for 30 or 40 years. You know, in 1995, president Jacques Chirac campaign for the president ial election, talking about the risk of social divide or the breakup of French Society. The problems in French Society we are seeing right now actually existed for a long time, and what we are trying to do, and it is difficult, is to set up some responses to these problems. The main response for president macron, for the government, has worked. You are fantastically loyal. Youve been a spokesman for the government now, youre in a ministerial position as ministerfor now, youre in a ministerial position as minister for youth, you said some time ago, i believe in macron, i have real loyalty for him because im absolutely convinced by the relevance of his project. I understand where youre coming from but surely even you have to access when you see a recent poll saying virtually 70 of the french people think that macron will stand no chance of getting re elected, hes not succeeding, he is failing. reminded you the context of his election. I know, but now where more than halfway through his term and people arejudging him on his record 110w. People arejudging him on his record now. We knew it wouldnt be easy to convince everyone over two years, its been two years, so were working very hard to convince. I believe what were seeing is the first of this policy is. Are coming. The Unemployment Rate hasnt been this low since ten years. The Foreign Investments in france havent been that high since ten yea rs. Havent been that high since ten years. So we begin to the results and now we need people to feel the results throughout their lives, we need them to find jobs, we need them to have a job which helps them to live properly, to have high value of theirjob. Thats live properly, to have high value of their job. Thats what live properly, to have high value of theirjob. Thats what we are working on. You make a valid point, the economy under macron hasnt done badly. Hasnt been great at it hasnt done too badly in relative terms in europe. Better than last years. Therefore one has to look for the reasons for his deep unpopularity, historic levels of unpopularity today, one has to look at other areas. One has to look at his style, at the complete failure of mr macron and there i say it politicians like you to connect with french people far beyond paris, far beyond the metropolitan centres, people who feel you do not care about them and do not listen to their voices. Feel you do not care about them and do not listen to their voicesli wouldnt do not listen to their voices. wouldnt say that, i think politics had a failure of connecting with these people and what we saw again with the yellow vest s people in certain areas of france feeling abandoned for ten, 20, 30 years because Public Services had gone, because Public Services had gone, because work had gone, because life had gone from these areas. And what we are trying to do, and its very ha rd we are trying to do, and its very hard but i believe we are succeeding in it, is to put life and work back to these areas and to make everyone feel in france that they are part of the same project. And it is difficult. If i may, the same project. And it is difficult. Ifi may, minister, how on earth are you going to convince the french people in the small towns, in the villages that you understand their problems . You, like mr macron himself, are the product ofa mr macron himself, are the product of a very particular french culture and background. You come from the poshest parts of paris, go to the elite schools like. You do not reflect the lives of most french people and that is what many french see as the problem with the macron political project. It doesnt reflect them and their france. First of all, we are a team. When i was elected a member of parliament to yea rs elected a member of parliament to years ago, i was in the parliament with the director of a school with a pilot, with a fireman. When you look at everyone in the parliament or in the government around Emmanuel Macron in this majority, you see people from very different social and geographic grounds and that i think is a force for us. And the second part is you can be from privileged backgrounds and caring for people who didnt have the same chance as you had. And for me it was actually the fuel that made me want to volunteer and to commit in politics, to make everyone have the same chance. Had you paused for thought when one minister, a former socialist who joined en marche because he believed in macron, im thinking of gerard colour, when he said quitting the government in a very dramatic move, he said in 0ctober, very dramatic move, he said in october, 2018 there was a fundamental problem, a lack of humility in mr macrons team. He said the danger was macron was becoming isolated, he doesnt take advice. Very few of us, he said, can still talk to him. No, i dont agree with that. What i agree with is may be for the first two years we gave the image of knowing everything on how to. The image of knowing everything on how to. Knowing the image of knowing everything on how to. Knowing better. On how to transform the country and fix the country without needing the help of others. I think we said that one year ago after the Yellow Vest Movement and the great debate, and the president even said it. Maybe we went to quick, maybe we went to far and may be we should have done what we have done with the great debate before. Ok, so in terms of specific mistakes, im mindful you actually began your political life as an adviser to a socialist minister. I suppose you were a socialist at the time, you made the move to en marche . Did it stick in your throat that mr macron from the very beginning made a top priority of cutting taxes or big corporations and the biggest, richest french people because for you, presumably, asa people because for you, presumably, as a socialist mud that was a mistake . I was in the socialist party but id been waiting for a few yea rs party but id been waiting for a few years for Someone Party but id been waiting for a few years for someone like Emmanuel Macron to propose this programme. But the very guy who advised macron on his economic strategy, he concluded as he broke with macron, he said, macron has failed to respond to the demand for tennis. His first moves, cutting wealth and Capital Gains tax taxes and him the title of president of the rich and asa title of president of the rich and as a result, says mr ferrie, a former ally of mr macron, as a result, he says, the desire for insurrection has taken root in france. Every reform we made and every reform we passed in the last two years was the reforms that were announced in Emmanuel Macrons programme that his allies built with him. Theres not any reform we are doing right now that we passed that wasnt in the programme which i committed to and which i decided to support. Its easy to say when cutting taxes is from the right and huge taxes is from the left. I disagree with that. Its a question of who you cut the taxes for and the priorities you show, and the priority seems to have been to help the rich and the big corporations. Why did we decide to lower taxes . We decided to lower taxes in order to help companies and to help people to invest in order to create jobs and opportunities for everyone. What we are seeing right now is the Unemployment Rate hasnt been that low for ten to 15 years. Now is the Unemployment Rate hasnt been that low for ten to 15 yearslj talk about your loyalty and i think youre exhibiting it here, but youre exhibiting it here, but youre a party guy, youre a very loyal party guy, can you see there are dozens of en marche mps quitting the party . Youve gone from 314 in the National Assembly to around 300 and youre still going in the wrong direction. You know we have 314 mps elected, andi you know we have 314 mps elected, and i was one of them. You know we have 314 mps elected, and i was one of themlj you know we have 314 mps elected, and i was one of them. I know. And the specificity of this group is almost all of the mps were committing in politics for the first time, the first time. We hadnt been elected before. And people were coming from everywhere in the country, from values, beliefs, and at the end it is normal that some of them. Well, realised that maybe they made a mistake, maybe they expect it Something Else. With all due respect, theyre saying when they leave, like frederique, she is saying she has to get out because shes so frustrated with the way the government s mishandling, in her view, the reform of the Pension System and its failure to really address environmental issues. Fees not leaving because he doesnt like politics, shes leaving because shes decided she doesnt like mr macron. And what do the 300 other mps saying while they are helping us and supporting the pension reform . They are supporting it because it was in our programme and it was the co re was in our programme and it was the core of our project. Why do we do this pension reform . We do it because. I tell you what, the french people dont understand your pension reform. We are speaking with them every day. Clearly its not working. Polls suggest french people agree there is a need for pension reform but in the months and months that mr macron and people like you have been trying to explain this reform, the french people clearly dont buy it. And when you look at the different items of the reform, which are tested in the polls, what do you see . When we say, should we cancel and delete the specific regimes, as we call it, that means if youre a bus driver in paris, you can retire five years before a bus driver in leon. When we ask in the polls, do you agree with the idea of a unique regime which is more leak or no equalfor everyone . Regime which is more leak or no equal for everyone . They say 80 yes. When you ask them, should we have a yes. When you ask them, should we havea minimum yes. When you ask them, should we have a minimum pension of 1000 euros to all the farmers or the workers who today have a pension lower than 1000 euros . They say 80 yes. When you look at the items of reform in the polls, they are supported. But youre still not winning the argument because if you look at the polls, the french people on the whole, while they accept they need reform, they dont need these reforms and you know more than me the whole history of french president s, one can think of president s, one can think of president s in the last generation or two, she racked to sarkozy, who have tried this fundamental reform and they have been fundamentally destroyed by it and it will happen to mr macron too. Ill tell you a lwa ys to mr macron too. Ill tell you always difficult to reform the social model in france and specifically to pensions because retirement is something everyone projects himself into, and it can be frightening for people. Again, when you look at the different items of reform, people are supporting it in the polls. Youre clearly an optimist. Let me ask you Something Else related to all of the demonstrations, the protest that weve seen from the g ilets protest that weve seen from the gilets jaunes, which began with the fuel tax protests and now the protests over the pension s. How do you feel when you see French Security forces opening fire with rubber bullets, the kind of rubber bullets banned in many other european countries. They use grenades, they use all sorts of r grenades, they use all sorts of weaponry that have left hundreds of french protesters badly injured. How do you feel about that . What we saw during these protests is a new form of violence, a new form. During these protests is a new form of violence, a new form. You during these protests is a new form of violence, a new form. You mean by the police . A new form of violence by the protesters, some of the protesters, not all of them, but black blocks coming from all over europe to protest with a new form of violence. You saw what happened with the arc de triomphe. So when macron called the protesters and thugs, you entirely agree with him . |j called the protesters and thugs, you entirely agree with him . I dont think he called them thugs. He did, he used the french word. People among the protesters. I dont generalise everything, i dont think all the protesters want to use violence, want to hurt and injure people, but some of them do. And so you need to respond to that. I want to know if you are ready on this programme to apologise that 315 people at lees, and these are figures that are a few months old. 315 people injured in the head, some with fractured skulls and jaws, 25 protesters lost an eye, five have lost a hand. 0ne protesters lost an eye, five have lost a hand. One woman died of injuries caused by a form of stun grenade. Would you apologise for that . If you are asking whether i am happy to see these scenes, absolutely not, evidently not. I wa nt absolutely not, evidently not. I want people in my country to know and feel that they can go protest if they want to and be safe in protesting, but you know. You are the ministerfor protesting, but you know. You are the minister for youth, protesting, but you know. You are the ministerfor youth, ironically, and you know what has happened to you opinion of macron. The latest yougov barometer poll ta ken you opinion of macron. The latest yougov barometer poll taken this month of macron shows 18, 1 8 support of 18 between 18 24 year olds. Support of 18 between 18 24 yearolds. That is not the most commonly used barometer in france, and just one of them, but these images have shocked some people. Even me. They shock to you . Even me. But when you have people on the protesters which hide between them in order to perform some sort of violence, very hard violence, remember the scenes you saw in paris. The cars burning, the arc de triomphe completely ravaged. You need to organise things in order for them not to hurt themselves and the others. Let me ask you this. I was struck by some comments from a centre right politician in france, w petron who said our country is more divided than ever. 0ur streets have seen scenes divided than ever. 0ur streets have seen scenes of violence for 15 months. The president has failed to reconcile the fence and pitted them against each other. The fabric of the country is daring before our eyes and mr president , you are responsible for it daring. He isa responsible for it daring. He is a senior politician, that is a stunning thing for him to say. He has been ministerfor stunning thing for him to say. He has been minister for 10 15 stunning thing for him to say. He has been ministerfor10 15 years. Maybe the criticism and comments he makes on French Society are criticisms of his own actions, too. Maybe that should give all ministers, including new, pause for thought. When he says French Society is daring before our eyes. What i was telling you in the beginning of this interview, we saw the cover burst but it had been bubbling up for 40 years. The feeling for the middle classes, that globalisation is not for them, the feeling that technology is replacing jobs and they dont know if they will be a pa rt they dont know if they will be a part of that, though feeling that they live side by side and maybe tomorrow they will live face to face, it didnt start two yea rs face to face, it didnt start two years ago, it started 20, 30, 40 yea rs years ago, it started 20, 30, 40 years and we are trying to respond to that. It is not easy. One idea you hard and you are going to turn it into a national, mandatory scheme is there are young people in france sign upfor is there are young people in france sign up for this national service. Yes. Is not going to be military but it seems you are going to require them to camp, where military uniform, parade and sing the National Anthem every morning. Many opposition politicians are calling this a crazy, expensive gimmick. Do you really think it is going to make any difference . Yes, and we are seeing it makes a difference. We started last year with 2000 young people and we saw the difference it makes. Do you think you can make patriotism mandatory . Its not only patch and it is, it is mixity, and the value of commitment for everyone. I was in london to meet with the ncs, National Citizens service. You have this idea of social cohesion and mixity and social cohesion and mixity and social commitment was that it isnt mandatory in britain but it would be in france. I think many countries are facing the same challenges in society that living side by side, we need more cohesion and mixity. The idea of the ncs is to have this movement o